Rockbox Technical Forums
Installation / Removal => Manual Installation => Apple - Installation/Removal => Topic started by: mruddo on March 01, 2008, 02:47:14 PM
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I’m about to acquire my first ever iPod: an 80GB 5.5g Ipod Video which will be a refurbished unit from the Apple store in the US. I’m not sure whether the drive will be initialised when it arrives, or whether it will be ‘as new’.
Ideally, I have no intention of installing iTunes on any of my PC’s or letting it anywhere near my MP3 files, and yet the ‘new’ iPod will need to be initialised with a FAT32 filesystem.
The manual mentions converting the filesystem, but does not appear to mention what to do on a brand new drive.
What I want to understand is can I do all this without going near iTunes? Or am will I have to install iTunes if only to initialise the drive?
Apologies if this is covered elsewhere - I did have a look around, but have not found anything specific (yet).
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IIRC New in box, the Gen 5.5s were all FAT32 formatted. No iTunes required.
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If you're on Mac OS X or Linux (probably BSD, etc. also), there's a way to convert it without using iTunes: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodConversionToFAT32
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You only need to do the FAT32 conversion if you used the iPod from OSX. Nothing on Linux will reformat it to a non-FAT32 file system (unless you flat out went and did that yourself - but then it wouldn't work at all anymore).
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Thanks all for the replies - fingers crossed then that I'll be able to just install Rockbox from day 1 and get going with the MP3 files I already have.
:)
My Rio Karma's served me well for many years, but the battery's running out of steam, and I've way more files than drive space, so I've been looking out for a replacement for sometime... Nothing really comes close to the feature set I'm looking for - yet - but a Rockbox'd iPod will hopefully do the trick nicely.
I understand the iPod will also come with a warranty - does anyone know if I can register it without iTunes as well? (Of course, I realise I'll have to switch back to the Apple firmware if I ever need to return it.)
Thanks,
Matt
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Please, please don't talk about lying to Apple about your warranty here. Seriously, I'm sure one of the reasons they actively dislike alternative firmwares is because it costs them money when people try to install one, mess up, and go to the manufacturer for a replacement. While this can't really happen on the iPod (they're fantastically brickproof from a software side) is still wrong to lie about warrant terms, and in many cases may even be a crime.
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:o
I don't think that's a fair - I'm not talking about lying to anyone! Just asking if I can register the product without using iTunes.
If I buy a Windows PC and install Linux on it, I would not expect the vendor to support any issues I may have in that respect, and if it had to go back - perhaps because of a hardware issue, then I'd happily re-install the supplied operating system before shipping it to them.
I really don't think such a harsh tone is necessary for what I feel is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.
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Windows PCs usually do not have a warranty that explicitly forbids you to alter the software installed. Most products like iPods do. Reinstalling the original software and attempting to return it to them when you have violated their warranty *is* a real problem in that case.
Making light of it by comparing it to a PC doesn't change the fact that there are terms to their warranty, and you may be voluntarily breaking it by installing Rockbox.
You're welcome to not like the tone, but uninstalling Rockbox and telling them you haven't installed it, or neglecting to tell them you have when it would make your warranty void, is still lying. I didn't comment at all about your issue of registering, just your suggestion that you'd uninstall Rockbox before returning it. If Rockbox didn't void your warranty, there would be no need to remove it.
Edit: And reporting posts are for posts violating the forum guidelines. Not for when you think someone has been rude to you.
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Come on, give me a break... I've never owned an Apple product in my life, and know nothing of any specifics about their warranties (yet).
I'm not making light of anything, but feel it grossly unreasonable that after posting what I still believe to be a perfecly reasonable question I get such an agressive response.
What happens if I get a faulty unit and have problems from day one? What happens if the headphones don't work, or the USB cable's faulty? etc. etc.
This is only my fourth post on a new forum where I hoped I'd found a group of likeminded souls, and that I'd not only learn from but hopefully contribute towards what looks like an excellent product... Unfortunately however I've been shot down almost immediately - with someone seeing fit to basically call me a liar.
A perfect example of how not to make the new guy feel welcome!!!
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I didn't call you a liar. I said "doing that would make you a liar." You haven't done it yet, have you?
Please, read carefully what I've said. I even pointed out that it merely MAY be illegal depending on the terms of your specific warranty and the legalities where you live.
You've decided I said something I didn't, and I can't do anything about that. Reread what I've said. I asked that you not talk about lying to Apple, because reinstalling Rockbox to return it to them would be such.
I also couldn't have known you didn't read your warranty, as it's your responsibility to do so and know its terms.
All I said, in the end, is "please don't talk about that here" but you chose to take it as a personal insult. Frankly, I'd like you to apologize for abusing the report function and spamming all our admins.
If you get a faulty unit using the Apple firmware, return it. But it's YOUR choice to install Rockbox, and if it voids the warranty you have, it's YOUR problem, between you and Apple, to argue whether it's right that it voids the warranty if your problem is hardware related. But if the terms say it's voided, that's that. If you choose to lie to them about it, to avoid such an issue, it's also your choice. But do not talk about it here.
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/me decides to try and defuse somewhat...
mruddo - welcome to Rockbox, and I hope you enjoy it. However, do be aware that we are very hot on any mentions of 'dodgy' activity (as well as the forums being pretty strictly moderated). Let's draw a line under this and be united in Rockbox!
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Thank you BigBambi - nicely put!
Fine by me. :)
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I have to defend mruddio here, and I'll give you a specific example. I bought a Dell laptop that came with Vista. Had to install Windows XP on it (which I did). I then has a problem with the Bluetooth hardware chip. Called Dell, even told them during troubleshotting that I installed XP on it, but they realised it was a hardware problem and send me a new Bluetooth module. No problems as my installation of a new operating system had nothing to do with a hardware problem.
If I buy an iPod and put Rockbox on it and then the hard drive dies, or the screen goes or something hardware related happens (that's not because I mis-used it, of course) I would expect Apple to honor its warentee. Now, of course if I installed Rockbox and then could not get the Apple operating system working again that would be my fault, but I fail to see how changing software on a computer (which is all an iPod is) can effect the warentee on the hardware.
- John
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I have to defend mruddio here, and I'll give you a specific example. I bought a Dell laptop that came with Vista. Had to install Windows XP on it (which I did). I then has a problem with the Bluetooth hardware chip. Called Dell, even told them during troubleshotting that I installed XP on it, but they realised it was a hardware problem and send me a new Bluetooth module. No problems as my installation of a new operating system had nothing to do with a hardware problem.
If I buy an iPod and put Rockbox on it and then the hard drive dies, or the screen goes or something hardware related happens (that's not because I mis-used it, of course) I would expect Apple to honor its warentee. Now, of course if I installed Rockbox and then could not get the Apple operating system working again that would be my fault, but I fail to see how changing software on a computer (which is all an iPod is) can effect the warentee on the hardware.
- John
That argument doesn't work. I refer you to Llorean's earlier answer above that I quote below. Most products like iPods specifically forbid you to alter the firmware. For instance on the iriver website, Rockbox is mentioned by name as voiding the warranty.
Windows PCs usually do not have a warranty that explicitly forbids you to alter the software installed. Most products like iPods do. Reinstalling the original software and attempting to return it to them when you have violated their warranty *is* a real problem in that case.
Making light of it by comparing it to a PC doesn't change the fact that there are terms to their warranty, and you may be voluntarily breaking it by installing Rockbox.
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BigBambi,
Hmm, interesting. Maybe that's why I always buy Dell's! But what I really wonder is if that would stand up in court? This is purely hypothetical, just debating here, but a lot of times companies and such will state that you can or can not do something even though it would not stand up to a court challenge just because they want to scare people into not doing it. An example would be my parents homeowners association which still states you need HOA approval for a Direct TV type satellite disk, even though the Supreme Court ruled years ago that HOA specifically cannot prohibit an outdoor antenna or satellite dish. So I really wonder if it would hold up (but it's not like someone is going to sue Apple over a $300 iPod, which is what those companies count on)
- John
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A warranty isn't about logic. It's about a list of specific things that you cannot do, or Apple will withhold support. It is effectively a contract between you and the hardware provider in which they say "We will fix your product for this period of time, so long as you don't do anything that we've decided greatly increases the chance of it failing." In *some* regions there are consumer protection laws that make such contracts invalid in the case of truly faulty hardware, but it varies from region.
In many cases, altering the firmware on an embedded device can be considered a damaging act. Apple can make the claim that Rockbox used the hardware outside of its tolerances, and this caused the damage rather than a real hardware fault. While this is almost certainly untrue, you cannot effectively prove this in most cases. Basically, companies do not treat firmware in embedded devices the same as hardware, and almost universally forbid you from running your own code if you wish to continue warranty coverage. Since you voluntarily opt out of the warranty by installing Rockbox (nobody makes you run Rockbox, and it's your responsibility to know your warranty terms) they're probably not going to listen much if you try to argue the point without a lawyer backing you up.
So yes, while logically you should be able to simply remove Rockbox, in most, if not all, cases the mere act of installing it makes your warranty contract vanish into wispy vapor, never to be honored again.
I really wish you'd stop trying to compare it to PCs. It is not the same situation. PCs don't have restrictions in place to prevent you from installing new software, they're explicitly designed so that you can install a new operating system. It's an entirely different field of debate for embedded devices. I can almost guarantee that Dell would try to deny you warranty service if you showed up with a failing Dell Jukebox with alternative firmware on it.
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Llorean said what I wanted to say!
I'm pretty sure here in the EU (no idea about the States), that there is consumer protection legislation that would override unreasonable warranty terms. Â However what is unreasonable or not would be up to the courts.
As for the PC comparison, I think it is more akin to replacing the firmware on your DVD drive to make it region free (which again may or may not be legal in itself (ignoring warranties) depending on where in the world you live), but that too is a non too perfect comparison.
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Exactly. I'm pretty sure in the USA it varies on a state to state basis.
In either case though, you're probably going to have to prove that the hardware was actually faulty, and that the problems could not have been caused by Rockbox using the hardware incorrectly. Once you've installed a custom firmware, it's quite possible to overheat a processor or do other nasty things that cause a device to start failing, and it's quite hard to prove that you never installed a version of Rockbox that abused the device.
It's like those "warranty void if broken" stickers on hardware. Once you've torn that sticker, they "know" you've been inside, and you can't really prove you didn't tamper with something you shouldn't have. Well, most warranties have a "void if you tampered with the firmware" clause, because you can cause hardware damage that way, and the only way you can effectively prove you haven't is by never having tampered at all (which i suppose you can't actually prove either, but that seems oddly irrelevant to them).
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Rockbox is much more like using a custom BIOS and operating system than just a simple OS swap. Rockbox initializes the hardware, and sets voltage levels just like a BIOS. Setting voltage levels wrong can damage hardware. When the iPod builds were achieving 50% of Apple firmware runtime this was surely causing more wear-and-tear on the battery than Apple intended in their warranty calculations.
The hardware manufactures are fully justified in refusing to repair their devices which have been running a custom firmware.
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Hmm... this is a bit off the iTunes topic :D
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Just buy the unit with a credit card. If the warranty is not honored you can still have the credit card company cover you. This is NOT outside the credit card company coverage - for example, my wife had the credit card company replace a cell phone dropped into a toilet by accident and they specifically told her that she was covered - they use it as an inducement to use their service t pay for items, and i think it's a great thing.
Here, I am, of course, only referring to ACTUAL warranty claims for hardware-related issues (bad headphone jack, cable port or HDD failure, etc.) and not some weird file issue caused by installation of the Rockbox OS. It seems to me that the OP was very clear that he's aware fo the risks that installing a non-OEM OS entails and is not trying to make a case for invalidating them. But I do agree that if it's a HARDWARE issue that the manufacturer should cover it. Of course, in the immortal words of Dennis Miller:
"That's just my opinion: I may be wrong."
Best of luck with Rockbox! I've used it for YEARS on my iRiver without a single flaw, and now that that player is finally starting to get flaky (after several thousand hours of playback the headphone jack is starting to fail) I just put it on a iPod - so far no issues! :)
PS - you still may want to load iTunes on your PC... Video playback, for example, is better using the original OS or so I hear, and with many videos now available for FREE download via iTunes (TV show reruns etc), I'm thinking that I'll likely install it on my PC as well. This would help you with your question about having to register via iTunes or not as well...
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Just buy the unit with a credit card. If the warranty is not honored you can still have the credit card company cover you. This is NOT outside the credit card company coverage - for example, my wife had the credit card company replace a cell phone dropped into a toilet by accident and they specifically told her that she was covered - they use it as an inducement to use their service t pay for items, and i think it's a great thing.
You may want to be aware that this is very likely to be different depending on what country you live in, and on what company you use within that country. I'm assuming from your spelling you are in the US, this may be very different elsewhere.
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Just buy the unit with a credit card. If the warranty is not honored you can still have the credit card company cover you. This is NOT outside the credit card company coverage - for example, my wife had the credit card company replace a cell phone dropped into a toilet by accident and they specifically told her that she was covered - they use it as an inducement to use their service t pay for items, and i think it's a great thing.
You may want to be aware that this is very likely to be different depending on what country you live in, and on what company you use within that country. I'm assuming from your spelling you are in the US, this may be very different elsewhere.
True enough - always check with the credit card issuer before believing what some stranger on the web says. :)