Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player

[casainho]

yes full-speed is bottleneck in 9261, that's why i've added High-Speed OTG controller in the block diagram
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerV1#Block_Diagram

Hmm... I did put the leds flashing using the "Getting Started with the AT91SAM9260 Microcontroller" application note from Atmel - It just took me 1 minute ;-) :-)
I took some notes for future reference: http://code.google.com/p/rockboxplayer/wiki/At91sam9260GettingStarted

So If using an external High-Speed OTG controller we will not be able to use Sam-ba :-( - how will users be able to flash, hack the hardware?

So, U-Boot or not?

RockboxPlayerV1 hardware
How are things going in selecting the TFT display? and about SDRAM, nand flash and HDD ATA-PIO?

I would like to ask for empty pins on board to connect to serial port, for hack/debug purposes. Also access to SPI, I2C and others buses.

Can I help in something? - I did read the datasheet of the power IC, the LTC3559 and I did upload it to RockboxPlayerV1HardwareComponents page.

[spark]

yes that's a valid point. sam-ba over USB won't work through OTG controller. For developers, serial & network could be used. We can also provide an internal PCB connector to access on chip USB for SAM-ba boot.

u-boot can technically go when we have rockbox bootloader in place for our target.

Rockboxplayerv1
hdd-> hitachi/toshiba 1.8" PATA
nand-> TBD
SDRAM -> TBD

yes you can upload whatever datasheets you have.

[casainho]

yes that's a valid point. sam-ba over USB won't work through OTG controller. For developers, serial & network could be used. We can also provide an internal PCB connector to access on chip USB for SAM-ba boot.

I think this a BIG problem, If we think in normal users that don't have much electronic knowledge or do not have the right tools - how should they do If they brick their firmware?? (please, no need to send for service repair, would be very bad for users and for the project) - with sam-ba there is always a possible recover (unless is an physical hardware problem)!

We don't need U-Boot for nothing, or am I missing something? - For developers, Sam-ba is simpler and cheap than Ethernet connection - Sam-ba just needs USB or serial connection, and for USB there is just a few capacitors and resistors while for Ethernet there is also an phy IC involved :-(

So I think we don't need U-Boot for nothing.

We don't even talk about AT91Bootstrap bootloader - eheh, I don't understand yet for what can It be important, however here is a list of functionalities:
AT91Bootstrap integrates several sets of algorithms:
 • Device initialization such as clock speed configuration, PIO settings, etc.
 • Peripheral drivers such as PIO, PMC, SDRAMC, etc.
 • Physical media algorithms such as DataFlash®, NANDFlash, Parallel Flash, etc.
 • File System drivers such as JFFS2, FAT, etc.
 • Compression and Cipher algorithms
 • Application Launcher for ELF, Linux®, etc.

About HDD, I think is very nice because I see that I have the option of use the player without HDD, I can use the SD card to store music and even the internal NAND flash. At the beginning I will prefer like that to save some money and after I can always buy the HDD - I think is great to have more than one option

[casainho]

Why don't you go with the at91sam9263? The new mouser cat has listed.

Hmmm... what are the advantages? - we pass from 9260 to 9261 because of TFT controller for the display... - now, why should we change for the 9263?

[casainho]

I like the lcd controller with graphics accelerator resolution up to 2048x2048, 6-channel audio ac97, ethernet, wifi, can, usb still at full speed, but what's strange to me is Image Sensor Interface. I like the audio most of all and wifi. The only thing with wifi is it will need a browser. I like watching my tech shows, I know geek or nerd. Would we settle on which browser and add-ons. It's not much different from the 9261, except the audio and ISI.

As you said, is not much difference between both, I think. 9261 don't have Ethernet, I thought It had but Ethernet is not need.

Well maybe 6-channel audio ac97 could be important, I don't know as I am not an audiophile. Anyway, this first version don't need to have all wish things, It must be a good and strong base for support future releases.

I am very happy with actual V1 block diagram.

Now I think we should investigate flash memories to be used. There are parallel NAND flash serial Atmel flash. MCU will boot from any of that memories, we can have as reference the memories used on Atmel dev. boards.

There should be some advantages on the serial flash. We need no more than 8MB for having bootloader + rockbox firmware. We should remember that memory for music files will be on SD card and/or HDD.

Friendlyzookeeper, can you help looking at advantages of each memory? availability and prices comparison?

[spark]

            9261 v/s 9263
SRAM    160K /  96K
Ethernet     N / Y
I/Os          96 / 160   (notice the similar numbers in SRAM  )
PKG   BGA217 / BGA324
Mem intf.    1 / 2

The 2 memory interfaces probably will give a significant boost for graphics intensive applications, since Graphics data is not sharing regular data bus bandwidth. This is somewhat similar to shared graphics memory v/s dedicated graphics in the PC environment.

I have recently begun to like the IMX processors offered by freescale.
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/brochure/FLYRIMXPRDCMPR.pdf

low cost gadgets (arm+linux)
chumby    http://www.chumby.com/
GP2X        http://www.gp2x.co.uk/

Chumby is open hardware. uses IMX21 processor.

[casainho]

low cost gadgets (arm+linux)
chumby    http://www.chumby.com/
GP2X        http://www.gp2x.co.uk/

Chumby is open hardware. uses IMX21 processor.

I am being reading the blog of one person responsible for Chumby: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/ -- I did learn a lot about Chinese production :-)

Are you thinking in changing for IMX MCUs? - what are the advantages and disadvantages over actual chosen MCU?

What do you think about that hardware in terms of performance for a possible hardware player as Rockbox? - because we can use them as development platforms, take ideas for hardware...

about flash memory
The serial flash on the Olimex SAM9-L9260 dev. board, of 16MB costs 3€ on farnell and 128MB of NAND flash costs 5,5 €.

[casainho]

Do you want reviews on memory or storage?

On memory options, sizes, availability, prices and advantages. But I can also do that after.

Now I will invest my energies on putting the AT91Bootstrap to work and launch the Flash LED code.
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/app_notes.asp?family_id=605#Memory%20Access%20/%20Boot%20Loader

AT91Bootstrap will be the first code on NAND or Serial Flash, the MCU will read it at boot. The AT91Bootstrap will configure the MCU, the external SDRAM and external NAND or serial flash - after will load the code from one of that memories to the SDRAM and finally jump to it, to execute it, our application. This first application will be the Flash LED code that I put working last time... in the end will be the Rockbox Firmware.

[Zardoz]

where is the originator of this thread/idea? is it roach reborn as casainho? I've been lookin at this for a while and I'm confused....

[casainho]

where is the originator of this thread/idea? is it roach reborn as casainho? I've been lookin at this for a while and I'm confused....

No, I am not "roach" - looks like last message of "roach" were on October 03, 2006.

I just come to Rockbox a few months ago, less than 1 year, when I bought my Sansa e200 specially to have Rockbox on it

[casainho]

low cost gadgets (arm+linux)
chumby    http://www.chumby.com/
GP2X        http://www.gp2x.co.uk/

I would prefer to have the GP2X... however I already have a kind of that gadgets, small with Linux, the eee pc 701 - I am reading and developing with eee pc, I can also watch video, listen music, surf on internet, play games, etc... --- all these gadgets are portable multimedia capable and they have very good price... they even use ARM processors, so, why don't port Rockbox and use them? - because they are not audio focused hardware.

About Rockbox Player V1, I think that to have a TFT display as that gadgets will kill the project because that displays are very expensive, I didn't find any for less then $100

A good option, I think is this one: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=712

Also I think we should stick near to the AT91SAM9260-EK board, using the same memories, etc, because Atmel gives a lot of source codes to initialize the memories, initialize the peripherals, gives bootloader, instructions, etc... - will be quicker to develop and good for beginners as me

[casainho]

If you do want to upgrade to a touch screen display the Wolfson Microelectronic stereo codec...

As you may understand, there are much more important things to work on before that!! For example, the memories for the system and the display:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerV1#Block_Diagram

[spark]

i.MX
my conclusions about i.mx

i.mx31 is the best performer (532MHz/ARM11), but we'll suffer poor battery life. It is too complex to start with. Good thing is that rockbox porting is already nearing completion for this platform (see Gigabeat S port http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GigabeatSPort)

i.mx27 is the next best performer. best value for money. Price is same as at91sam9261 but it gives 266-400MHz operation, and hardware MPEG4(H263/264) codec (30fps @ D1 resolution), high speed USB OTG and high speed ATA-6 support. So this is my dream processor. (A scaled down version i.mx27L is available at same package but lower cost since some goodies are removed. so we have 2 cost/feature options for same board design)
However 400+ ball BGA, is too complex to start with, so this'll have to wait.

i.mx21 is more powerful than at91sam9261 and yet cheaper ($4 to $8 cheaper depending on qty). highlights are: 266MHz operation, 133MHz bus, USB OTG and Host (full speed though). Also, 0.8mm pitch BGA is manageable, same as 9261. So i.mx21 is a practical choice.
Best part is, you only need to spend $180 and buy a Chumby... This can be a good platform to start Rocbox port till V1 comes out. Since Chumby hardware is open source, we can re-use a lot from there.
Too bad, they don't ship it outside US.

I'm sorry Casainho this is coming in late. But it's better late than never to review our CPU selection. This is for V1.

[casainho]

i.mx21 is more powerful than at91sam9261 and yet cheaper ($4 to $8 cheaper depending on qty). highlights are: 266MHz operation, 133MHz bus, USB OTG and Host (full speed though). Also, 0.8mm pitch BGA is manageable, same as 9261. So i.mx21 is a practical choice.
Best part is, you only need to spend $180 and buy a Chumby... This can be a good platform to start Rocbox port till V1 comes out. Since Chumby hardware is open source, we can re-use a lot from there.
Too bad, they don't ship it outside US.

I'm sorry Casainho this is coming in late. But it's better late than never to review our CPU selection. This is for V1.

Looks like chumby is a good hardware platform to develop, because of It's price/hardware: http://wiki.chumby.com/mediawiki/index.php/Hacking_hardware_for_chumby#What.27s_in_a_chumby.3F

If freescale gives good application notes as Atmel this should be the best choice.

Now the problem is how to get one for that price?? - I saw in ebay just a few that are sent for international however that price should be at least +150$ because of taxes and carriage :-(

I will not buy a new hardware, the chumby, so soon, first I will wait to see if you really start developing with chumby, after buying it. While that I will continue to learning with the development board I already bought.

friendlyzookeeper, about memory, we have here a change in hardware so that work will be for later :-)

EDIT 1:
Why not GP2X?

The advantages that I see in GP2X over Chumby:
- it's almost half the price of the chumby -  119.99 € (without VAT) - http://www.adictron.es/epages/61488288.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61488288/Products/gp2x_f200;
- it's worldwide available while Chumby not;
- it's much more portable, Chumby don't run on batteries, GP2X is much more a portable media player while Chumby not;
- have USB 2.0 High Speed while Chumby just USB 2.0 full speed;
- have SD card while Chumby not;
- have tactile buttons while Chumby not
- would be great for people that uses GP2X having a Rockbox working on It, being a portable device in nature, while will not happen the same on Chumby - also would be great for Rockbox project having it working on GP2X - there are people looking for Rockbox on GP2x, we might get help from them: http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=28343.

[spark]

why not gp2x?
Because it uses some MagicEyes processor which could have a support problem.
Chumby uses freescale which definately has better support. Appnotes and Linux BSP is available. Shematics & Layout available.