Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player

[casainho]

Working status:
I received yesterday the development board from Olimex :-) - It's looks like to have a shortcircuit on 2 pins on the USB IC, I will take care of that next week.

With the dev. board came a CD with AT91 Bootstrap and with U-Boot - I did updated the RockboxPlayerPrototype page with that files and the bootloader section.

I had some e-mails with Roger aka spark, he are with short time to came to forum, however he gave me some ideas for the bootloader. He think is Ok this scheme for the bootloader.
He will soon buy the dev. board.

The next thing that we should focus is in have a Flash LED application that will be launched by u-boot. After that, the Flash LED application will be exchanged by the Rockbox Firmware application

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/view_detail.asp?ref=&FileName=ARM9_Hantro_10_3.html&Family_id=605

"AT76C113P" is the only chip I could find so the chip mentioned is up and coming, I think?

This is it    http://www.hantro.com/index.php?349

friendlyzookeeper, why don't you want to focus and use what had already been done? - we already choosed the MCU, the stereo audio codec, the sizes of SDRAM and Flash, and even the dev. board.

Quote:
All tools are for Linux and also for M$ Windows. GCC-ARM, text editor and USBprog, they are multi OS - you can see a good example here:
http://sunge.awardspace.com/arm-getting-started/arm-getting-started.html

Thats for a at91sam7

Ok, but should work for the at91sam9. I bought that USBprog for make the JTAG using USB on PC, however I didn't test yet - maybe next week I will do that.

[00christian00]

Ok,finally some update.Some good and some bad news.
My friend agreed basically because it won't cost anything for them.
That was the good one.The bad one is that in China factories don't work with small numbers,
the minimum quanity to build will be around 3000 units,since it involves creating a new case mold and new
pcb design.In total 3 factory will be required,one for the case,one for the pcb(by pcb i mean the pcb itself plus the component that require smt machine,excluding soldered components,like battery,jack,etc) and one for assembly.
I can see if we can lower the quantity,but will still be a big investment from our side.
So to decide if agree,we should have more concrete data.
How many people are willing to join the development?
If we have developer known to have experience in this field,we could send the development board to them to speed up the process.
Speaking of the development time,6 months seem a bit much for this project,not because it's long per se but because it's open source,and if it catches enough interest any company could just take the design and make it before us.So the shorter the better.
Last thing,as i said before,since it require a big investment it should be more commercial possible.
So I would like to evaluate any proposal you guys will make that won't collide with the original purpose.
Example,we ditched,touchscreen,and touch button and it's fine but if anyone have suggestions for the control is highly welcome.For example a click wheel,similar to the new iriver models could be an example and it won't hurt the design.Any cool feature is accepted,because on our side won't change much 5-10 usd more but could greatly improve sales.The key is to make it unique by merging features not present in current players.

[ZincAlloy]

Example,we ditched,touchscreen,and touch button and it's fine but if anyone have suggestions for the control is highly welcome.For example a click wheel,similar to the new iriver models could be an example and it won't hurt the design.Any cool feature is accepted,because on our side won't change much 5-10 usd more but could greatly improve sales.The key is to make it unique by merging features not present in current players.

what's wrong with ordinary buttons? Last week I tried a friends ipod - it was horrible. In my opinion a clickwheel is a very ineffective tool for browsing long lists and an ergonomical nightmare.

[00christian00]

That's not the wheel i meant,the ipod one is a touch wheel.
I meant like this :

Or like the Sony Ericsson P900 Jog wheel.It's really handy,and not meant to replace buttons.

[ZincAlloy]

I see.. what are they needed for?

[casainho]

Ok,finally some update.Some good and some bad news.
My friend agreed basically because it won't cost anything for them.

UAU!! Very good news

That was the good one.The bad one is that in China factories don't work with small numbers,
the minimum quanity to build will be around 3000 units,since it involves creating a new case mold and new
pcb design.In total 3 factory will be required,one for the case,one for the pcb(by pcb i mean the pcb itself plus the component that require smt machine,excluding soldered components,like battery,jack,etc) and one for assembly.
I can see if we can lower the quantity,but will still be a big investment from our side.

And this is a bad news for who? Pasen? - will Pasen invest their money to buy that 3000 units?

So to decide if agree,we should have more concrete data.
How many people are willing to join the development?
If we have developer known to have experience in this field,we could send the development board to them to speed up the process.
Speaking of the development time,6 months seem a bit much for this project,not because it's long per se but because it's open source,and if it catches enough interest any company could just take the design and make it before us.So the shorter the better.

Christian, what would be that "blank time", from which hardware were not be Open, for Pasen can recover the investment and win?

About number of people joining the development, I would suggest you put a message on mailing list, saying what you pretend and what you offer, in this case, I assume that you want a Rockbox port for RockboxPlayer hardware and you give the development board - maybe you can make a bounty too.

About development time, I did wrote on project page 6 months assuming myself working alone. Now, we have 1sr and 2nd bootloader code, we also have code for some piece of hardware, like audio codec IC. For LCD, we must write the driver after we chose it or with luck it will be some LCD with drivers already in Rockbox, . Also make driver for USB(??) and buttons(if some special click wheel).
I would say, that right know, 2 or 3 experienced developers, with the right tools as debuggers, oscilloscope and the development board, can have all full port in 3 weeks or less.

Last thing,as i said before,since it require a big investment it should be more commercial possible.
So I would like to evaluate any proposal you guys will make that won't collide with the original purpose.
Example,we ditched,touchscreen,and touch button and it's fine but if anyone have suggestions for the control is highly welcome.For example a click wheel,similar to the new iriver models could be an example and it won't hurt the design.Any cool feature is accepted,because on our side won't change much 5-10 usd more but could greatly improve sales.

Eheh - here comes the wishlist :-) - http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerWishlist

You know the page RockboxPlayerV1? we did put their ideas for what would be the first comercial version after the Prototype. I suggest that you put a message in the mailing list about this subject. I also suggest for you send an already complete list of what you think should be the player and also ask for suggestions. You will have much feedback on mailing list.

You said "we ditched,touchscreen", we didn't do that, I think. We want tactile buttons! but if tactile buttons is present, is needed the touch screen? I think everyone like touch screen however you should evaluate the price. And, what will be the final price, your idea?

The key is to make it unique by merging features not present in current players.

I would ask for recording capabilities, some good inputs and outputs, and marketing that after. I assume that any recent player with Rockbox will fulfill my expectations less in a good quality hardware play/record.

Another questions: FM/AM Radio?(there is drivers in Rockbox for radio tuners)  DAB radio(no Rockbox driver)? - Wireless connection(no Rockbox driver)?

And another: What about patents? like MP3, WMA, ACC, etc? - how it work when Pasen buy from China?

[00christian00]

Is the mailing list more followed than forum?I am not familiar with them,i don't like much the mailing list format.
So yes the bad news is for us,and thus for you too
As for your second answer,i don't know i will have first to investigate on costs.There is a fair soon in hong kong,i'll send my agent to talk with parts supplier.
I see many list the internal capacity like some hard disk type,if that's the type of player we'll have to call out as will be much more expensive than flash type(and not too small).Also for your information most of the player we build now does use mlc type flash that have slower writing speed than slc,but does have a huge difference in price(for example 4gb mlc is 12 usd the slc is 26 usd).
I read the wishlist,but other than tos-link it seem all regular feature to me.
With cool features i mean uncommon one.As of now the selling point is all in the software,but little on the hardware.I will definitely forget about touchscreen,would rise the price,and would need a complete new interface to be attractive.Too much hassle and there are way too many touchscreen devices out there now.

Another questions: FM/AM Radio?(there is drivers in Rockbox for radio tuners)  DAB radio(no Rockbox driver)? - Wireless connection(no Rockbox driver)?

Yes,from what i read around,most of the users want fm radio even if they won't use it most of the time
It would be good if it could support RDS too.
Dab radio would rise much the price,and it's not a worldwide standard.
Wireless would be awesome,but writing a bluetooth or wi-fi stack from scratch would take ages.
Since your os is not a derivate of any other os,there is no stack for it.
There is the kleer audio wireless technology,but could be pricey and you are stuck with their earphones or you must also design them.

And another: What about patents? like MP3, WMA, ACC, etc? - how it work when Pasen buy from China?

I don't know much of patents on the manufacturer side.I do know most of the licenses are covered on the distribution side,because most patents aren't valid in china or not even considered,but once they enter europe or usa the importer/distributor is responsible for any patents.
So if the sale would be directly from China most of them won't apply,if there will be someone who does want to distribute them locally in europe or usa then they must deal with them.
Now i'm going to bed,it's really late  

[casainho]

Is the mailing list more followed than forum?I am not familiar with them,i don't like much the mailing list format.

I think that because forum have sections, maybe not everyone comes to this one, maybe just developers. Last time I put a message on mailing list I got a lot of feadback - that what I wrote on WishList.
Well, I did put a message on ML yesterday, after wrote this message. If you want, you can write the message, send to me and I can post on ML.

So yes the bad news is for us,and thus for you too
As for your second answer,i don't know i will have first to investigate on costs.There is a fair soon in hong kong,i'll send my agent to talk with parts supplier.

I didn't understand... "fair soon"? - other thing, using the components, the MCU that we choose, maybe will higher the cost, but is a "stable", I think that Atmel MCU will be available for long time in market or at least Atmel will provide a continuity MCU and with full datasheet.

I see many list the internal capacity like some hard disk type,if that's the type of player we'll have to call out as will be much more expensive than flash type(and not too small).Also for your information most of the player we build now does use mlc type flash that have slower writing speed than slc,but does have a huge difference in price(for example 4gb mlc is 12 usd the slc is 26 usd).

Huge difference in price? so why do you chose use that? - is really important? is noticeable the different in performance?

Another questions: FM/AM Radio?(there is drivers in Rockbox for radio tuners)  DAB radio(no Rockbox driver)? - Wireless connection(no Rockbox driver)?

Yes,from what i read around,most of the users want fm radio even if they won't use it most of the time
It would be good if it could support RDS too.
Dab radio would rise much the price,and it's not a worldwide standard.
Wireless would be awesome,but writing a bluetooth or wi-fi stack from scratch would take ages.
Since your os is not a derivate of any other os,there is no stack for it.
There is the kleer audio wireless technology,but could be pricey and you are stuck with their earphones or you must also design them.

About wireless, I hope that this 1st version of the player will be a success, then we can use the player or any dev. board that put wireless module and work on software for it, the 2nd version of the player could have then wireless and other things that we decide and that we previously do on software side.
There is a lot of people in Rockbox that desire a hardisk(with BIG capacity) version! Maybe after V1, Pasen can make one future version(V2) with HD(V2-HD) and other version with flash(V2-FL).

Christian can you write a new TWiki page about this player that will be possible made by Pasen? I think would be good to start having clear information(in text) about it - maybe you have all in your head, but not us.

So, I would say:
* MCU AT91SAM9260
* 8MB SDRAM
* 1GB(?) NAND Flash (at least 8MB)
* SD card Expansion Slot
* USB IC for USB 2.0??
* Stereo audio codec TLV320AIC23
* Li-Ion Battery - Swappable/replaceable batteries - use batteries that we can swap easily, maybe like mobile phones.
* 320x240(?) LCD
* FM radio
INPUTS: *  Stereo Line-In for High Quality recording; * Digital-In - preferably via mini-TOSLINK; * Mono integrated Mic for voice recording.
* Navigation/volume controls, buttons and a click wheel(?).

This is a modest DAP, I would expect to pay no more than $150 knowing that is a Free/Open hardware with Rockbox pre-installed - about the same price of Pasen 4GB LAZYBUM - however I would like to see a cheaper price as $100, to boost the adoption. What do you think?

[00christian00]

Regarding the hdd question,what do you think of a design like that?
It's similar to a design I saw before,except that was carrying a larger battery,not an hdd.

The connector could be an 30pin one,like ipod so the player could support ipod accessory,from what i read rockbox does have drivers for ipod interface,right?Of course the player won't have to ship with such driver as that would require a license which i doubt apple will release for another mp3 player

Huge difference in price? so why do you chose use that? - is really important? is noticeable the different in performance?

Actually now we does use the cheaper MLC,which is the standard for all small and medium brands.I don't know about big brands(i think they still use SLC).And yes the performance is much different(1.8mb/s against 3.2 if i remember well,but the situation may have changed with newer flash modules).

I didn't understand... "fair soon"? - other thing, using the components, the MCU that we choose, maybe will higher the cost, but is a "stable", I think that Atmel MCU will be available for long time in market or at least Atmel will provide a continuity MCU and with full datasheet.

Actually i think the mcu is among the cheapest one for a decent player.There are more affordable and powerful mcu in china now,but one is rockchip and is not documented at all,the other is ingenic and maybe well documented but it's a mips one(that would have been great since it have lots of power with good battery time).
There is an electronic fair(like ces,cebit etc) in hong kong soon.There will be electronic parts supplier there.That's what i meant.

INPUTS: *  Stereo Line-In for High Quality recording; * Digital-In - preferably via mini-TOSLINK; * Mono integrated Mic for voice recording.

Can the line in be shared with earphones output or it will compromise quality?All these input output can be difficult to place in a small player otherwise.

[casainho]

Regarding the hdd question,what do you think of a design like that?
It's similar to a design I saw before,except that was carrying a larger battery,not an hdd.

The connector could be an 30pin one,like ipod so the player could support ipod accessory,from what i read rockbox does have drivers for ipod interface,right?Of course the player won't have to ship with such driver as that would require a license which i doubt apple will release for another mp3 player

I think is nice

About 30pin Apple, I think is a way to avoid, because of NOT Open documentation and not license as you said. What advantages can we have in put some hardware/software in our Free/Open hardware, that we can't control and even license?

Huge difference in price? so why do you chose use that? - is really important? is noticeable the different in performance?

Actually now we does use the cheaper MLC,which is the standard for all small and medium brands.I don't know about big brands(i think they still use SLC).And yes the performance is much different(1.8mb/s against 3.2 if i remember well,but the situation may have changed with newer flash modules).

We did chose this AT91SAM9260 because: is an ARM9(in generally, most RB developers said would be a smart choice to use an ARM9, because there is hand assembly optimized code for ARM, and C inline optimized code), is from Atmel, which provides full datasheet, example codes, application notes, etc, and should have a long life in market and availability worldwide and at small quantities.

INPUTS: *  Stereo Line-In for High Quality recording; * Digital-In - preferably via mini-TOSLINK; * Mono integrated Mic for voice recording.

Can the line in be shared with earphones output or it will compromise quality?All these input output can be difficult to place in a small player otherwise.

Unfortunately, I can't answer to that technical question. I would prefer a bit larger player, with standardized jacks, and IMO, that can be used to pass the idea of a "professional" audio player/recorder. We can read on wikipedia about Ipods:
"*Bass response*
The third generation iPod had a weak bass response, as shown in audio tests.[41][42] The combination of the undersized DC-blocking capacitors and the typical low-impedance of most consumer headphones form a high-pass filter, which attenuates the low-frequency bass output. Similar capacitors were used in the fourth generation iPods.[43] The problem is reduced when using high-impedance headphones and is completely masked when driving high-impedance (line level) loads, such as an external headphone amplifier. The first generation iPod shuffle uses a dual-transistor output stage,[44] rather than a single capacitor-coupled output, and does not exhibit reduced bass response for any load."

I would have care in have good quality audio hardware. I remember to see a message in some audio specialized forum, people to get better sound quality, just put big capacity capacitors and better quality like tantalun capacitors, in the power supply circuits and in the output audio drivers. Being Free/Open hardware, will be easy to modify the hardware, make tests to prove and suggest for new version of the hardware.

As soon Pasen decide to really make the hardware player, please just say and I will assume the compromise, actualizing the project page, removing pieces of text as "Find a company to assembly and sell It online, to worldwide (already received some offers);" and put here the name of Pasen as the company that will make the player.

[desowin]

I have just one suggestion/wish:
I'd love if RockboxPlayer don't hiss nor induce some other annoying noise.

as for now, I still haven't got in my hands any DAP that wouldn't hiss.

[casainho]

I have just one suggestion/wish:
I'd love if RockboxPlayer don't hiss nor induce some other annoying noise.

as for now, I still haven't got in my hands any DAP that wouldn't hiss.

Thank you. I did register on:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerWishlist

[casainho]

This is a great site for many resources.

http://www.busybox.net/products.html

Give it a look see, may give you some drivers from one of the embedded resource.

This is not fun, memory stacks and pointers. Going back to C, after spoiled with C++. I'm going to need more scratch paper. I rather use java based, my html stinks. This is like going back to cobol or fortran from the 70's era, from basics in the 80's. Asm is so long past, the only time I remember using it was when I made my own operating system in school.

I did teste my Olimex SAM9-L9260 development board and is working, with Linux. I did use a null cable modem to see Linux shell, also did put one usb pen flash and did browse is files - very nice, It was my first time!! :-)
Now I want to see what are the options that u-boot gives at boot time.

I would like to find a simple code that flash a LED for be launched by u-boot. I didn't find nothing on internet... can some one point me to that?

EDIT: I got it, I will go to read now the page: U-Boot Standalone Applications: "Hello World" Demo from u-boot manual:
http://www.denx.de/wiki/view/DULG/UBootStandalone

[scorche]

Still having problems getting usb to work. I would like to get my hard drive to work. I might have to try this: Windows Embedded CE BSP and CPU Certification Program. The 2 watt stereo amp worked very well, for us that are a little hearing impaired. My module supports earphones, also. The music is very clear and some base to its tone. The 4 gig sd card has plenty music, but I would like to play some divx. For now, its up to someone else to come up with a driver for usb, I'll try to get my free imbedded Windows ce version.

Ok.  This is getting *really* off-topic now.  Keep in mind that we are still on the Rockbox forums and the building of this device is for Rockbox...*not* Windows CE.

[Llorean]

Have you actually looked at what Rockbox is? We *have* the firmware, it's mostly just a driver layer that will need creation. Rockbox isn't Linux, either, and nobody has to "adjust" to linux to use Rockbox.