Rockbox Development > New Ports
Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player
Der Papst:
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:00:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: scorche on April 02, 2008, 06:39:15 PM ---Also, using price as a reason is also not concrete, as if you do these things, you will have more people who will want to purchase the device. The more people who want to purchase the device, the less the manufacturing/parts cost will be.
--- End quote ---
Follow big numbers looks bad to me(not always) :-( as we can see now, one example is that everyone likes to have touchscreen, If you want to sell big numbers you will put a touchscreen, and looks no one desire a touchscreen for audio player, touchscreen just makes sense for video player.
--- End quote ---
Wait, where does it say that?! I don't think that you need a touchscreen at all even for larger resolutions and even IF there is a touchscreen i can't see how it could harm audio quality. If the touchscreen is cheaper than another one in the same resolution i'd vote for the touchscreen.
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:00:30 PM ---So, as you say, using a larger screen means to have a larger player, and thats not what is pretended - It's pretended a small physical size - pocketability.
--- End quote ---
I think the audio quality gets affected a lot more if you try to put too many chips on a too small pcb leading to background noises than a large touchscreen. Also i think the production costs will dramatically increase if you try to keep it as small as possible because you would have to use a multilayer pcb with LOTS of more layers than a slightly larger player with fewer layers.
Yet another thought about your price concerns:
Iirc the irivers are still the daps with the best audio quality supported by rockbox and they're also pretty old by now. However in Berlin at the Alexander Platz in Kaufhof you can still get some (H10 and H300 or H100 iirc) and the "cheapest" one is still above 150EUR (refurbished!).
So if you are really making such a high quality audio player it is going to be pretty expensive anyway. A larger LCD and a better battery won't increase the price by that much then anymore.
casainho:
--- Quote from: scorche on April 02, 2008, 07:17:03 PM ---A 220x176 screen with decent color is not going to ruin "pocketability" in any way. Neither is a 240x320 screen honestly, but it can for some. I am not saying you have to do anything. I am just saying that the reasons you have been using do *not* make sense.
Also, I do not see "everyone" wanting a touch screen. I see someone mentioning that this other company happens to have them too. Read what people are saying, as to say something like that is proving that you are not even listening to them when this is *not* what they are asking for.
--- End quote ---
A said everyone because I see that tendency on new players and because Christian wrote: "We are selling many touchscreen,because many people want it".
About the screen size, ok, 240x320 can be "pocketability". But if we think in have a display size to permit video, quickly that size will increment, I guess people will demand bigger screens sizes, for a better video visualization.
--- Quote from: scorche on April 02, 2008, 07:17:03 PM ---
--- Quote ---So, I am not so optimistic about video not interfering with audio.
--- End quote ---
Why not?
And please do not "cherrypick" (this means that you only respond to the parts of my post that may fit your story instead of responding to everything that I say) my posts. I say things for a reason and to ignore that is not very demonstrative of your willingness to discuss issues.
--- End quote ---
Sorry about that "cherrypick", I didn't know that concept. I just didn't answer/comment because I had nothing to say, I generally agree with what you wrote.
And I did not wrote well my idea. I would like to say that I am not so optimistic about seeking hardware for ALSO video not interfering with seeking hardware just for hight quality audio player. And I mean also the disposition of the buttons, size, price.
Another thing, I did ask to developers the minimum size of SDRAM and Flash memory the player should have to run Rockbox, and I get 4MB of each memory - again, for audio player. If we want larger screen and video, I think that this memories should be 4 or 8 times more. Are this change is sizes expressive in price? maybe not...
--- Quote from: Der Papst on April 02, 2008, 07:25:34 PM ---the irivers are still the daps with the best audio quality supported by rockbox and they're also pretty old by now. However in Berlin at the Alexander Platz in Kaufhof you can still get some (H10 and H300 or H100 iirc) and the "cheapest" one is still above 150EUR (refurbished!).
So if you are really making such a high quality audio player it is going to be pretty expensive anyway. A larger LCD and a better battery won't increase the price by that much then anymore.
--- End quote ---
Thats what I am afraid, new players not focused in good audio quality, instead going to focus more on video or very low price.
scorche:
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:58:15 PM ---A said everyone because I see that tendency on new players and because Christian wrote: "We are selling many touchscreen,because many people want it".
--- End quote ---
Yes, but "everyone" is a massive generalization and is far from what people have expressed on these forums. The main new players that I know of with a touch screen is the D2 and iPod touch (which really shouldn't even count) and that is just one device. I do not see a large trend of manufacturers rushing towards touch screens. Making generalizations of "everyone" and entire industries based on a couple of instances is not a good way to go about things.
--- Quote ---About the screen size, ok, 240x320 can be "pocketability" but quickly the size will increment, If you are seeking portable video.
--- End quote ---
I agree. 240x320 is just fine and I don't see any good reason why it should go higher than this for an audio player. The reason why I mentioned that is because you said you didn't want a larger or better screen because then we would be making the device for video at the expense of our audio functionality.
--- Quote ---Sorry about that "cherrypick", I didn't know that concept. I just didn't answer/comment because I had nothing to say, I generally agree with what you wrote.
--- End quote ---
Then by all means, say so! If you have an opinion in the past and new evidence or arguments pop up that discredit the past opinion, it is good to say that you understand now so that we can see you have changed your mind.
--- Quote ---I would like to say that I am not so optimistic about seeking hardware for ALSO video not interfering with seeking hardware just for hight quality audio player. And I mean also the disposition of the buttons, size, price.
--- End quote ---
You don't have to. This is what we have been saying up to this point. We want a device whose main focus is audio, but to add a better screen is not going to deviate form that purpose and we are still not seeking hardware for video, as if we did, we would of course want an even larger screen!
--- Quote ---Another thing, I did ask to developers the minimum size of SDRAM and Flash memory the player should have to run Rockbox, and I get 4MB of each memory - again, for audio player. If we want larger screen and video, I think that this memories should be 4 or 8 times more. Are this change is sizes expressive in price? maybe not...
--- End quote ---
Like I have said before, this is not just for video. 4MB very well is around the "minimum". However, memory is cheap these days and if we put a bit more, I think that the cost difference will be very small, and that the increase in battery life from a larger buffer (as well as making things a bit easier on you when porting Rockbox as you have more RAM to work with and won't have to worry about squeezing everything in as much) would certainly be well worth it.
Der Papst:
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:58:15 PM ---About the screen size, ok, 240x320 can be "pocketability" but quickly the size will increment, If you are seeking portable video.
--- End quote ---
Where does it say that? Look at all the daps that can play video already. Look at the 3G nano. It's tiny but fully capable at playing video at a decent resolution. It has a 320x240 display. Being able to play video doesn't necessarily mean that you have to carry a huge and bulky player with you.
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:58:15 PM ---And I did not wrote well my idea. I would like to say that I am not so optimistic about seeking hardware for ALSO video not interfering with seeking hardware just for hight quality audio player. And I mean also the disposition of the buttons, size, price.
--- End quote ---
Read my other posts. IT IS UNAVOIDABLE! If you want a DAP with lots of cool audio features and high quality you need:
* a fast enough SoC
* a display large enough for an intuitive UI to use all these features
You simply CANNOT AVOID IT that this hardware will be used for video playback even if it wasn't intended for it. If you want to avoid video playback you have to make the hardware that crappy that no one on earth except you is going to buy AND produce it. Hell even the 1G iPod with its 2bit "colour depth" display and slow and problematic SoC can playback MPEG full speed and i bet the guys developing it never ever dreamt about being able to do that.
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:58:15 PM ---Another thing, I did ask to developers the minimum size of SDRAM and Flash memory the player should have to run Rockbox, and I get 4MB of each memory - again, for audio player. If we want larger screen and video, I think that this memories should be 4 or 8 times more. Are this change is sizes expressive in price? maybe not...
--- End quote ---
YOU have proposed 64MB sdram. That is more than plenty for video audio and games. 32MB would even be enough for all that (see 5G iPods)
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:58:15 PM ---Thats what I am afraid, new players not focused in good audio quality, instead going to focus more on video.
--- End quote ---
THAT was NOT the point i made. The point i made is that the player like you are proposing it IS already expensive! If you add a larger screen and better battery it's not going to make a real difference. What is 300EUR compared to 320EUR? Almost nothing and i would be more then willing to pay these 20EUR for a larger screen and better battery life.
casainho:
--- Quote from: scorche on April 02, 2008, 08:16:17 PM ---
--- Quote ---I would like to say that I am not so optimistic about seeking hardware for ALSO video not interfering with seeking hardware just for hight quality audio player. And I mean also the disposition of the buttons, size, price.
--- End quote ---
You don't have to. This is what we have been saying up to this point. We want a device whose main focus is audio, but to add a better screen is not going to deviate form that purpose and we are still not seeking hardware for video, as if we did, we would of course want an even larger screen!
--- End quote ---
Okok, I agree with you in all what you said in the message.
Ok, I understand now that 240x320 display can be "pocketability" and will not compromise audio in player :) - and that size display is not good for video.
--- Quote from: scorche on April 02, 2008, 08:16:17 PM ---Like I have said before, this is not just for video. 4MB very well is around the "minimum". However, memory is cheap these days and if we put a bit more, I think that the cost difference will be very small, and that the increase in battery life from a larger buffer (as well as making things a bit easier on you when porting Rockbox as you have more RAM to work with and won't have to worry about squeezing everything in as much) would certainly be well worth it.
--- End quote ---
So I choose double the value, 8MB for each memory.
--- Quote from: Der Papst ---
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:58:15 PM ---Another thing, I did ask to developers the minimum size of SDRAM and Flash memory the player should have to run Rockbox, and I get 4MB of each memory - again, for audio player. If we want larger screen and video, I think that this memories should be 4 or 8 times more. Are this change is sizes expressive in price? maybe not...
--- End quote ---
YOU have proposed 64MB sdram. That is more than plenty for video audio and games. 32MB would even be enough for all that (see 5G iPods)
--- End quote ---
That values you said, are the values in the development board, the final values should be 8MB for each memories as a minimum - for an audio player.
--- Quote from: Der Papst ---
--- Quote from: casainho on April 02, 2008, 07:58:15 PM ---Thats what I am afraid, new players not focused in good audio quality, instead going to focus more on video.
--- End quote ---
THAT was NOT the point i made. The point i made is that the player like you are proposing it IS already expensive! If you add a larger screen and better battery it's not going to make a real difference. What is 300EUR compared to 320EUR? Almost nothing and i would be more then willing to pay these 20EUR for a larger screen and better battery life.
--- End quote ---
I think you are mistaken because one objective(which is written on page of the project), is "Total cost less than $125.". Also there was a suggestion from Olimex of "AT91SAM9260 + LCD NOKIA 6610 + 8MB flash + 8/16MB SDRAM + nRF24L01 wireless chip + audio CODEC + Li-ion battery + charger + miniUSB + buttons, price in range of 100 €.".
--- Quote from: friendlyzookeeper on April 02, 2008, 10:27:35 PM ---I was going though the getting started and found that the requirements may need to be used, exspecially the isp and software and didn't find linux operating system. The example in there is to light up 2 leds.
--- End quote ---
All tools are for Linux and also for M$ Windows. GCC-ARM, text editor and USBprog, they are multi OS - you can see a good example here:
http://sunge.awardspace.com/arm-getting-started/arm-getting-started.html
I want to blink a LED using the same bootloader that will launch Rockbox, blinking a LED will be like a test to know that MCU is running and also the bootloader.
After the blinking LED, write drivers for the LCD, buttons and ATA -- well, thats what I written on "2st stage bootloader" section on page:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype
---
I actualized the main project page about the contact of Pasen and delaying the schedule time for the Prototype. Also the minimum size of SDRAM and Flash memories.
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