Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player

[casainho]

About bootloader

I paid yesterday the development board, I hope to have it soon. I am now starting reading about the bootloader stage.

I am looking for help at knowing, If a bootstrap that Atmel gives is needed with the u-boot??
Atmel bootstrap: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=4093

What can u-boot "give" to this project? what functionalities of u-boot makes sense to use?

Yes the case can be an issue.  For our project, we teamed with a Chinese company (Atcom) who had the case designed and fabricated.  You see Atcom were familiar with manufacturing issues, as they already sell many electronic products.  So the case was fairly easy (and relatively) inexpensive to get designed/built.  Atcom were interested in helping us as they want to sell the IP04 commercially (which is fine with us).  So it has been a win-win partnership so far.

I will try do the same, with possible interested companies. Luckily, there are a lot of online shops that needs projects like this one to continue selling, like SparkFun, which seems great to me :-)

I did read all your words in in blog post - very nice to know all that technical tips, I will use some of them in future, for sure. And I remember about the "When you are in the middle of a bug hunt two things happen"!! :-)

I wish we will have same success with RockboxPlayer as you guys have with IP04 :-)

[Bagder]

What can u-boot "give" to this project?

A bootloader perhaps?

what functionalities of u-boot makes sense to use?

TFTP the rockbox image, run it. Makes an excellent development environment to get your Rockbox port flying.

But for production you need to make sure it can read the rockbox image from a FAT32 file system on the NAND of course.

[casainho]

What can u-boot "give" to this project?

A bootloader perhaps?

what functionalities of u-boot makes sense to use?

TFTP the rockbox image, run it. Makes an excellent development environment to get your Rockbox port flying.

But for production you need to make sure it can read the rockbox image from a FAT32 file system on the NAND of course.

I am readind about Rockbox bootloader and normal used bootloaders for AT91SAM ARM. I wrote some ideas in wiki.
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype#Bootloader

I want to read more about the AT91 Bootstrap bootloader and U-boot, I have some questions.

[Bagder]

IMHO, you should make u-boot do the necessary things to boot and run Rockbox, no need for the "rockbox bootloader" for what you're doing. U-boot with some minor adaptations can be that for you.

[00christian00]

Hi Guys,
my name is Christian and I came here while looking for some skilled engineer to work on google android.
I work for a small company,PASEN,distributing mp3 players and i must say we are really interested in producing your players.It's long time we wanted to build an open source player,but being relatively small we can't invest much on it,and thus we are glad to hear of your project.May I know what is the current status?I read many pages and it seem the april deadline for the working prototype won't be met,am i wrong?
We can deal on more than some simple bucks off each sale,i was thinking of actually sharing profits.
I think I can arrange also the production at much lower cost,but i must first ask my friends running factories in china if they are interested in joining the project.

[casainho]

Hi Guys,
my name is Christian and I came here while looking for some skilled engineer to work on google android.
I work for a small company,PASEN,distributing mp3 players and i must say we are really interested in producing your players.It's long time we wanted to build an open source player,but being relatively small we can't invest much on it,and thus we are glad to hear of your project.May I know what is the current status?I read many pages and it seem the april deadline for the working prototype won't be met,am i wrong?

Hello Christian :-)

Right now, I think I am the only one working on the project, actively, on the RockboxPlayerPrototype: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype

Unfortunately, I am not experienced programmer so I think I will take about 6 months to have an working prototype. A working prototype can happen in 3 or less weeks If a experienced programmer work on It, because there is full documentation and some pieces of Free Software to use directly.

We can deal on more than some simple bucks off each sale,i was thinking of actually sharing profits.
I think I can arrange also the production at much lower cost,but i must first ask my friends running factories in china if they are interested in joining the project.

This project is an Free/Open hardware without exclusivity with any company - see the CC license for the documentation of the hardware.
Speaking for myself, I just need/want, to have some company that sells to me that Free/Open hardware audio player and recorder. I do not seek money, however, I think is important to have some money to buy hardware for development - would be nice if the company selling the hardware could give some hardware for development.

Thank you.

---
Here is the webpage of Pasen (for who would like to know): http://www.pasen.it/

[00christian00]

Hi Casainho,
thanks for your answer.I didn't post our company website,to not look like a spammer.
Mmmh,6 month,quite a change from the first timeline  
It's strange such a project is getting so little interest.

This project is an Free/Open hardware without exclusivity with any company - see the CC license for the documentation of the hardware.
Speaking for myself, I just need/want, to have some company that sells to me that Free/Open hardware audio player and recorder. I do not seek money, however, I think is important to have some money to buy hardware for development - would be nice if the company selling the hardware could give some hardware for development.

Well if the price of the board is what i read (100/300 usd) i think it wouldn't be a problem to invest on some development board if there are skilled developer willing to join.
But if we were to invest on it,at least the spec should be good even from a business point of view(for example that screen is ugly as hell   )and it's ok that the hardware must be open/free to any company but there should be at least some blank period to let us be the first producing it,after that you can disclose everything.

Best,
Christian

[Bagder]

I would be a lot more interested in this project if there's a real chance of someone actually producing the player in the end, and of course that the specs are fine. So far this project has been about Build Your Own and that simply doesn't do it for me.

I too think a player needs a color display of at least 220 x 176 to have a chance to attract users these days.

Possibly I'm not the only one feeling this way (regarding both these points).

[AlexP]

Possibly I'm not the only one feeling this way (regarding both these points).

You certainly aren't the only one.  Furthermore, I feel that some of the hardware choices are illogical, and that attempts to try to give input on that point have been summarily rebuffed.  I would love to have an open hardware player, but it has to approach what can be bought commercially, and personally I feel that at this point, what is proposed here doesn't.

[casainho]

It's strange such a project is getting so little interest.

Well, other people from outside Rockbox firmware had more interest on the idea of Free/Open hardware audio player and recorder for use with a Free/Open firmware(in this case, the Rockbox). The others 2 companies that I contacted and other people from others Free/Open hardwares: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=6751.msg119227#msg119227

This project is an Free/Open hardware without exclusivity with any company - see the CC license for the documentation of the hardware.
Speaking for myself, I just need/want, to have some company that sells to me that Free/Open hardware audio player and recorder. I do not seek money, however, I think is important to have some money to buy hardware for development - would be nice if the company selling the hardware could give some hardware for development.

Well if the price of the board is what i read (100/300 usd) i think it wouldn't be a problem to invest on some development board if there are skilled developer willing to join.
But if we were to invest on it,at least the spec should be good even from a business point of view(for example that screen is ugly as hell   )and it's ok that the hardware must be open/free to any company but there should be at least some blank period to let us be the first producing it,after that you can disclose everything.

1º screen from prototype was not chosen to be the final version, just to be the cheapest and world available by mail to be easy for possible developers buy them.
2º I think is ok, fair, that blank period. I would like to create a good and long relationship, between the community and the company that will assembly and sell the hardware.
3º can you say what would be good from a business point of view of Pasen? I saw the products page of Pasen and Pasen have a lot of players announcing video and touch screen. As you can read in the objectives of this project, the first one is: "Make a good quality hardware audio player and recorder;", so, hardware focus on an audio system and not follow the tendency of portable video player. The same to the touchscreen, this hardware for audio does not need to have touchscreen and If have one, must have tactile buttons for visual impaired people, users of Rockbox.
I think that an hardware tailored also for video will compromise the performance of the systems, in terms of price, size, bad quality audio hardware, battery life :-( - I am really happy to see companies like http://www.tonium.com/ making a portable device just dedicated to audio: "Pacemaker is a revolutionizing portable music player equipped with an extensive range of professional audio manipulation features enabling limitless mixing between two independent channels."

Well, but If RockboxPlayer is a project to make a good quality hardware audio player and recorder, without emphasis on video, and If Pasen desire to make/sell one Free/Open hardware media player like, lets say, the PA20, I would love to help also!! - even If I will continue to pursue the Free/Open hardware audio player and recorder.

[00christian00]

Glad to hear if there is some changes in the spec someone else will join.
Between a 220x176 and 320x240 lcd the price difference is inexistent,maybe now 320x240 screen are even cheaper because they are more used.A 16:9 screen can be a little more pricey but this is gonna change soon,since it's becoming common now.

@BigBambi
I understand your point,but you can't have both side of the medal.
If you chose material easily bought by anyone for "do it yourself" you are greatly limiting the project from a commercial point of view.Both way are not possible to achieve,what is possible i think is make a base in common,and create 2 projects like there are now,but how many do you think would spend double the money to build his own player while he can get the player already made with much more features for half price?
It's ok to keep the project open so that anyone can improve it,but to think that there will be more than a few bunch to really build it i think it's crazy.

[casainho]

Glad to hear if there is some changes in the spec someone else will join.
Between a 220x176 and 320x240 lcd the price difference is inexistent,maybe now 320x240 screen are even cheaper because they are more used.A 16:9 screen can be a little more pricey but this is gonna change soon,since it's becoming common now.

You are just talking about prices, and what about energy used by that displays? - It's important to think also on the "long runtime", as It is desired by everyone. Did you read RockboxPlayerWishlist?
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerWishlist

[00christian00]

Oh no,no need for touchscreen.We are selling many touchscreen,because many people want it,but this is something that can be added in any moment,even in a second version.
The unit must not been video centric,but a good gui is worth thousand words,and none could stand to watch anything on that nokia screen,it would ruin even the most awesome screen.
A good screen can be used for cover album,some nice font,visualization and even games.
My commercial point of view is like this for an audio centric player(but not only):
-2.4'' screen or even better 2.6'' 16:9(just because it's slimmer not because it's 16:9)
-stereo speaker.There is really few player with stereo speaker and would rise the price of almost nothing
-swappable battery,cellphone type easily buyable.Please no AAA battery.
-game controls.You want tactile button,so why leave out this potential features.
something with this form factor for example :
http://www.gearlog.com/images/23353.jpg
-sdhc slot

[00christian00]

While listening to music most of the time the screen will be off so it won't change much.
Plus you can set the brightness to the minimum and have the same ugly effect of that nokia one,but at least you have a choice.
For example our touchmusic last around 30 hours with a 2.4'' touchscreen while listening music.

[casainho]

Oh no,no need for touchscreen.We are selling many touchscreen,because many people want it,but this is something that can be added in any moment,even in a second version.

Well, as you can read in wishlist, there are a lot of people that do not want touchscreen. It's actually BAD for visual impaired people and none company thinks about them, about this issue :-( - but that is not just the visual impaired people, people that likes to being listening audio with closed eyes, do not want touchscreen!! also when we have the player in pocket, there is no need to look at the screen just for jump to the next song - I would say that touchscreen is bad for an audio player, IMO.

The money, the resources taken by touchscreen, I would prefer to use them for a better hardware audio quality.

The unit must not been video centric,but a good gui is worth thousand words,and none could stand to watch anything on that nokia screen,it would ruin even the most awesome screen.

Please forget that nokia LCD, I already said why I did choose to use it on the very first prototype.

A good screen can be used for cover album,some nice font,visualization and even games.
My commercial point of view is like this for an audio centric player(but not only):
-2.4'' screen or even better 2.6'' 16:9(just because it's slimmer not because it's 16:9)
-stereo speaker.There is really few player with stereo speaker and would rise the price of almost nothing
-swappable battery,cellphone type easily buyable.Please no AAA battery.
-game controls.You want tactile button,so why leave out this potential features.
something with this form factor for example :
http://www.gearlog.com/images/23353.jpg

-sdhc slot

It's ok for me!! However the design looks just a bit ugly(chinese culture?)... but I think would be very good for the first ones!! :-)

And what about recorder? yes or no?