Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player

[spark]

i believe the fun lies in the experience of designing the hardware ourselves (at least at schematic level). Since we already have the dev board schematics and lots of info on the net, what more do we need?
Once the schematics is finalized we can hunt for vendors to make the PCB.

We can start with the dev board schematics being replicated in kiCad and then modify other stages.
The dev board schematic is very hard to read since all things are put on a single page. The different stages (e.g. CPU, audio, lan, flash, RAM, etc) must be on separate pages with off page connectors and off page busses. This way it is very easy to read.

FYI: to use HDD in portable player you need to use the slim style (1.8") drives that are used in UMPCs. These are even smaller than laptop drives. I guess these don't come greater than 80GB to date.
http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/site/en/menuitem.791419b49758db5deb4703e3aac4f0a0/

They are relatively expensive that 2.5" drives but still they are cheaper than flash. you could buy a 20GB slim drive for under $80

if we can support IDE interface then we can support both CF cards and HD Drive on the same electrical interface.

[casainho]

Once the schematics is finalized we can hunt for vendors to make the PCB.

Thats another phase that I think we can avoid! Avoiding that means save a lot of money, resources! Olimex can do that PCBs, buy components, assembly and sell it on their online shop, worldwide - and even they have already a net of shops, representatives!!

As I am thinking, we just need to risky, invest our money at 1st phase, in this dev board, and on the next phase, all money investment and risky will be for Olimex or any other!! And have it available on online shop to every body is very important for the success of this idea!!

As you suggest, after finding a vendor for PCBs, who will buy components, assembly it in quantities and sell it online?

FYI: to use HDD in portable player you need to use the slim style (1.8") drives that are used in UMPCs. These are even smaller than laptop drives. I guess these don't come greater than 80GB to date.
http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/site/en/menuitem.791419b49758db5deb4703e3aac4f0a0/

They are relatively expensive that 2.5" drives but still they are cheaper than flash. you could buy a 20GB slim drive for under $80

if we can support IDE interface then we can support both CF cards and HD Drive on the same electrical interface.

We can start writing this ideas on TWiki. I will ask to moderators to change the name of the page of the V1 and I will start another V1 page, to store this ideas.

[scharkalvin]

FYI: to use HDD in portable player you need to use the slim style (1.8") drives that are used in UMPCs. These are even smaller than laptop drives. I guess these don't come greater than 80GB to date.
http://www.hitachigst.com...9758db5deb4703e3aac4f0a0/
They are relatively expensive that 2.5" drives but still they are cheaper than flash. you could buy a 20GB slim drive for under $80

1.8" hard disks are more expensive that 2.5" laptop drives, but other than size they do not hold a big advantage for a use in a media player.  You can get 2.5" HDD's up to 160gb cheaply.  Using a 2.5" drive will require a larger case to put the player in, but savings in weight won't be that great over the 1.8" types.  Anyway, using a 2.5" HDD wouldn't be out of the question.  Also note that laptop drives are now going to SATA and this trend will spill over to the 1.8" size soon.

http://www.geeks.com/products_sc.asp?cat=414
http://www.geeks.com/products_sc.asp?cat=906

[casainho]

Organization on TWiki:

RockboxPlayer - general page about the project:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayer

RockboxPlayerPrototype - page about the prototype, made using a dev. board:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype

RockboxPlayerV1 - page to register ideas for the first commercial version of the player:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerV1

[markun]

Also note that laptop drives are now going to SATA and this trend will spill over to the 1.8" size soon.

Why do you think that? I would expect CE-ATA to be the new standard for 1.8" drives. It's used in the 160GB version of the ipod classic.

[casainho]

Also note that laptop drives are now going to SATA and this trend will spill over to the 1.8" size soon.

Why do you think that? I would expect CE-ATA to be the new standard for 1.8" drives. It's used in the 160GB version of the ipod classic.

I did create a new message just for discuss ideas, suggestions, for the RockboxPlayerV1 - http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15173.0 , please use that message and not flood this message thats pretend to be just for the RockboxPlayerPrototype or general project:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype

[spark]

casainho, you did a good job by separating proto and v1

HDD/CF interface
whether we go for 2.5" HDD due to lower cost or 1.8" HDD due to smaller size, we need an IDE interface.
the 9260 cpu has a CF controller which can be easily adapted for a HDD.
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc6023.pdf

using SATA drives will only complicate the matter without any significant gains.

CF or SD flash
now since an IDE interface is allowing us to use CF and HDD, should we still stick to SD card for v1?

[casainho]

Spark, can you please answer to my question "As you suggest, after finding a vendor for PCBs, who will buy components, assembly it in quantities and sell it online?" - Do you have a better option?

And lets that discussion of a kind of HDD for the message for RockboxPlayerV1 - http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15173.0 . For this RockboxPlayerPrototype, we just have SD card on hardware.

[spark]

Spark, can you please answer to my question "As you suggest, after finding a vendor for PCBs, who will buy components, assembly it in quantities and sell it online?" - Do you have a better option?

sorry casainho, i missed to reply to your question. i don't have any option yet, but definately there will be many guys interested once we have Rockbox runnin on RockboxPlayerProto. And there is quite some time for that.

If we have the schematics done for V1, don't you think vendor's like olimex will be interested?

more than the PCB and assembly i'm worried about the enclosure. u know anyone who can make and sell an enclosure at a cheap rate?

[casainho]

sorry casainho, i missed to reply to your question. i don't have any option yet, but definately there will be many guys interested once we have Rockbox runnin on RockboxPlayerProto. And there is quite some time for that.

Yes, and we must take advantage on that interest

If we have the schematics done for V1, don't you think vendor's like olimex will be interested?

For sure, however, I believe that we can accelerate the process and help them If we use hardware that they already use on their dev boards, because they have experience on that hardware, since from design(have libraries for schematic and PCB), to find/buy the components till assembly it.

If we design the schematic for V1, Olimex will probably need to redesign it again internally, for a few reasons. However, I changed a bit my ideas now :-) - we don't loose nothing in have it designed by ourselfs, specially If we have resources to do that, If you like and want to do that, go ahead :-)
But, remember that we must find help at assembly and sell online the project!!! - I don't have resources to do that nor I want to do that! I assume that you to... so I guess the best option is have Olimex or others to do that, so, we must work with them, using the hardware that they use on theirs dev. boards(Olimex example).

more than the PCB and assembly i'm worried about the enclosure. u know anyone who can make and sell an enclosure at a cheap rate?

Now, I don't. We have the option of the - http://www.emachineshop.com/ - Online Machine Shop - Download the software for free, design the case in 3d, and it tell you the price you will pay. This is ideal for a prototype or small quantities.

Maybe we can define a design, sizes of the V1, make an expensive prototype of the enclosure and then try to contact any company as we are doing for hardware. Good was having it selling on online shop with plastic case already! It can be possible, I think.

I am reading now the:: Application note from Atmel: Getting Started with the AT91SAM9260 Microcontroller.

external PCB
Can someone(with more experience than me, which is almost none) draw the external PCB in KiCad? - I want to start drill that. Sharkalvin suggested to seperate analog vdd and gnd from the digital vdd and ground. (the AEXT connector has analog vdd and analog gnd). This will reduce noise in the nanalog signals..

New developer :-)
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/MattAndrew
MattAndrew added himself to the project page. He haves wrote this on his page:

As a student project this semester (spring 2008), I'm designing and building a portable mp3/ogg/flac/etc player that will run rockbox (yes, I'll port rockbox to it). The designs for the circuit board will be licensed under the creative-commons (by-nc-sa).

The music player will be based on an atmel arm9 and have a organic led display (124x128, 18 bit color). For storage, there will be 2 sd/sdhc card slots. It will have the usual lithium ion variant battery and charge via usb. The software will be stored in serial flash and be copied to ram upon bootup.

I'm not trying to compete with any brand's commercial player, I'm just not satisfied with what's out there (basically I want a quality sd-card based player with a color screen that plays oggs and mp3s). The end result of this project should be a circuit board that can be printed by a board house and then soldered by the advanced amateur, although only a few might ever get made.

My student project last semester was a clock based on an arm7 with the same organic led display I'm using for this music player. The software is all written in assembly language and is open-source. The designs for the hardware are licensed under the creative commons.

I searched and I find his blog, with pictures of his works :-) - http://ohmslog.wordpress.com/

EDIT on 30.01.2008:
We have another Prototype page - RockboxPlayerPrototypeB :-) :-) - let's discuss ideas and see what is the best... I am really loose but happy :-)
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototypeB

[spark]

Welcome Matt. Good to have you with us.

Could you post more info about your oled clock project? You seem to have PCB design experience. which tools do you use?

However, I changed a bit my ideas now :-) - we don't loose nothing in have it designed by ourselfs, specially If we have resources to do that, If you like and want to do that, go ahead :-)

sure, i'll start something on it. I'm new to KiCad, so i will have to do some learning on that first. We also have Matt now with us.

[casainho]

However, I changed a bit my ideas now :-) - we don't loose nothing in have it designed by ourselfs, specially If we have resources to do that, If you like and want to do that, go ahead :-)

sure, i'll start something on it. I'm new to KiCad, so i will have to do some learning on that first. We also have Matt now with us.

About Matt, I had chat with him yesterday. Matt told me that he must have the board designed and produced in 1.5 months!! He will be able to assembly a few for developers, we need to send him money for the components and board. He estimates a price of no more than 100 €.

So he will just make the board for his project in school and after we can continue  with the software porting.

Since we will need to spend about 200 € for the dev boad from Olimex  + LCD, etc... I think we can try the board from Matt. Spark, I apologize for changed my ideas, since you suggested the same as Matt! I think it shows my inexperience :-)

What do guys think about this? about shifting from Olimex dev board to Matt board?

We can help Matt, It will not be Matt board, instead, our board :-)
Written by Matt on http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototypeB
components and operation
    * atmel arm9 (at91sam9260, 208 pin qfp, ~$20) microcontroller
    * organic led display (124x128, 18 bit color, 30 pin connector, $37)
    * 2 sd/sdhc card slots
    * lithium ion variant battery (charges via usb)
    * spi flash (dataflash, 8 pin soic)
    * sdram (32 bit wide)
    * stereo DAC (twi or spi or ssc/i2s)

Very nice the at91sam9260, we have already a lot of information about it.

The organic led display, Matt wrote: The choice of an oled display was because it was fairly low-cost ($37 in single quantities), easy to interface to and is lower power than an lcd in the case that only a few of the pixels are on (because there’s no backlight on an oled display). --> very nice the low power and the price for that technology will drop, IMO.

Stereo DAC? can it be the same TLV320AIC23?

Rockbox will be stored in spi flash and be copied to ram upon bootup. This means that it will be necessary a larger SDRAM value?

to get truely low power when the device is in pause mode, it needs mobile sdram which is only available in BGA packages (tell me if I'm wrong about this!) --> I went to IRC for asking this question, no one could tell me about mobile sdram.

I found the AT45DB321D-SU - 32M bit / 4 MByte, 2.7-Volt Only Serial Interface Flash, SOIC.
Atmel product page with datahseet and application notes: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card.asp?part_id=3818
cost 4,54 € in Farnell: http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/Semiconductors/Memory/ATMEL/AT45DB321D-SU/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1455042&_requestid=63444

And on IRC chat:
- 32mbit/4mb should be enough
- rockbox core is muuuuch smaller than that
- would even have room for some plugins

[spark]

About Matt, I had chat with him yesterday. Matt told me that he must have the board designed and produced in 1.5 months!! He will be able to assembly a few for developers, we need to send him money for the components and board. He estimates a price of no more than 100 €.

So he will just make the board for his project in school and after we can continue  with the software porting.

not a bad idea. Matt, please start work on the wiki as soon as possible so that we can work together to build the schematics.

Spark, I apologize for changed my ideas, since you suggested the same as Matt! I think it shows my inexperience :-)

you don't need to. it is not inexperience. it is difference in needs .

oled display
can we have datasheets of the oled display? how many colours does it support?

spi flash or NAND flash

Rockbox will be stored in spi flash and be copied to ram upon bootup. This means that it will be necessary a larger SDRAM value?

Why not NAND flash? We can have a 8Gbit (1GByte) NAND flash for $16. This can serve as firmware space as well as media storage.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=557-1373-1-ND
Linux can also be used. you can literally swim inside here.
It can also save you from buying an SD card.

Mobile SDRAM
Yes, unfortunately these low voltage (1.8V) SDRAMs are only available in BGA package. So we have to stick to 3.3V SDRAMs.

[casainho]

oled display
can we have datasheets of the oled display? how many colours does it support?

I am almost sure that is this this display, from SparkFun - there is also listed on that page the example project of Matt: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=712

spi flash or NAND flash

Rockbox will be stored in spi flash and be copied to ram upon bootup. This means that it will be necessary a larger SDRAM value?

Why not NAND flash? We can have a 8Gbit (1GByte) NAND flash for $16. This can serve as firmware space as well as media storage.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=557-1373-1-ND
Linux can also be used. you can literally swim inside here.
It can also save you from buying an SD card.

I think Matt did choose that because of SOIC package, to be easier to solder.

[scharkalvin]

I like the look of that oled display.  Matts clock looks real good on it.