Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player

[toffe]

You can have a look on this project http://www.aesop-embedded.org/download.html
It doesn't seem to be active but the drawings are complete.
It is almost the Toshiba gigabeat F.
Why don't use the gigabeat F as a base, you just have to find a lcd, everything else is documented and
rockbox is already running on it.
Taking the project above and modifying the sound part you have a gigabeat  

[casainho]

This LCD was mentioned before.  You have to buy the carrier board because
soldering to the connector by itself is very hard.  So the total price is just under $40.

The carrier board looks like to be out of stock :-( - but this looks like the best option until now, this LCD + the carrier board.
http://www.sparkfun.com/c..._info.php?products_id=600
http://www.sparkfun.com/c..._info.php?products_id=569

I am still waiting for an answer from http://ic-board.de/, I will just for more 3 days, after that I hope to contact Olimex and ask If they can/want to help in defining, designing, build and sell It for us, thinking in that they can upgrade their MOD-MP3 MP3 PLAYER MODULE - http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mp3.html

if some company is gonna do everything, then what are we going to do?

Eheh, yes, we must work, is our hardware!! - I dream with some work together - imagine If while we port RB to dev board, the company would design the schematic and PCB, make the pcb and assembly

Hardware blocs of the RockboxPlayer

-just 16kB flash will not be sufficient. need to have at least 8MB flash on the proto boards. this can reduce later, once we know the firmware size.
-4MB RAM may be very conservative to start with. protos can have 16/32MB RAM. we can chip off the excess later.
-battery, charger, power supply stage? this is a very important and challenging stage to design.
-memmory card -> memory card . we can finalize an SD card since it is compact and cheap.
-microphone? sound recording h/w can be added with no extra cost. the codec chip (tlv320aic23b) already supports it.

The idea would be to have a bootloader on that 16kB of Flash and 16kB of RAM, for boot RB from the memory card. What we win with this? less an expensive, large and with numerous connections IC. But It have disadvantages, as on chat on IRC people told me that if we swap memory card, RB must be there and we will not can swap cards unless we have RB on every card...
I had confirmed with Bagder and others that values of 16kB as ok for bootloader. If we want just flash memory IC for have RB there, at least 4MB, a 8MB would be safe for suture.

About RAM, some said on IRC, that 2MB would be ok, or 4MB, that we need more RAM if we will have a larger LCD, If we will have large album art. 8MB should be more than enough, although 4 MB will be also ok.

Batteries
Use NiMH AA batteries because they are cheap, removable, easy to find for buy on any street, also chargers for that batteries. To be a simple and cheap, there will no batteries charger in the player. Anyone can carry 4 ou 8 AA batteries in pocket and charge them in house, car or PC using USB. I assume that we all have some used and cheap AA batteries in our homes, so I will not add the cost of AA batteries to the player.

Processor should have one ADC to measure voltage of batteries and display that information for user.

I already talked with Bagder in past about this and he as also of the opinion of NiMH AA batteries. If no charger, simpler circuit, cheap and quick to make :-) A lot of digital photo machines uses this kind of batteries, no? Maybe not DAPs, but If we will can save energy, this DAP will last so much time as others with Li-Ion.

Microphone
Yes, tlv320aic23b. You must have some experience from DSPdap :-) Recorder yes, but, is not really important now, however, why not?

Processor

this processor (Samsung S3C2410) has heavy power consumption and there will be problems as far as availability and support is concerned.

the processor is suitable for a feature rich phone, but may be an over kill for a decent RB player.

I was happy with this board: http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=1438 - but since It have that processor, no!! I was not able to find datasheet on the site!!

Why not try to find an ARM9 from Atmel? Looks like they have low power consumption and there is a lot of information from Atmel. Even two community site backed up by Atmel: http://www.at91.com and http://www.linux4sam.org

You can have a look on this project http://www.aesop-embedded.org/download.html
It doesn't seem to be active but the drawings are complete.
It is almost the Toshiba gigabeat F.
Why don't use the gigabeat F as a base, you just have to find a lcd, everything else is documented and
rockbox is already running on it.
Taking the project above and modifying the sound part you have a gigabeat  

It looks to much complex for what we need now - however looks very nice to take ideas!! :-)
Thank you.

Dev board - http://www.kwikbyte.com/KB9202.html
I found one that have all we need(less the DAC) for $225 - highlights:
# 180 MHz, 200 MIPS ARM9 highly-integrated core - Atmel AT91RM9200
# Independent 16KB instruction and 16KB data caches
# 64 MB SDRAM
# 8 MB SPI Flash
# 256 MB parallel NAND Flash
# SD/MMC card support
# 10/100 Ethernet
# USB 2.0 full speed host port
# USB 2.0 full speed device port
# Parallel LCD interface supporting Optrex PN F-51320 + LCD_128X64BW
# 16KB internal SRAM
# 128KB internal ROM
# User LEDs (3)
# External memory interface at headers
# Signals available at standard 0.100” x 0.100” headers (I2S, timers, counters, synchronous serial, asynchronous serial, programmable clocks, digital I/O, interrupt lines, SPI, TWI)
# On-chip Real-time clock (RTC) and DMA
# Switching power supply provides 2.5A and accepts wide AC/DC voltage range from standard 2.1mm jack
# JTAG compatible debug port
# 100mm x 160mm Eurocard format

This board have a black and white LCD, is not beautifully but it means that we will not need to solder wires. We can't buy It and save $25, and maybe buy after that $40 LCD + carrier board.

It also have a real time clock. We just need  to wire the DAC - TLV320AIC23 IC.

[spark]

You can have a look on this project http://www.aesop-embedded.org/download.html
It doesn't seem to be active but the drawings are complete.
It is almost the Toshiba gigabeat F.

nice find toffe. i suppose it has all the documentation about the samsung 2440 processor that was almost impossible to find through google.
this solves one problem about the S3C2440.
what about availability and pricing of this processor? It is a BGA package.

Batteries

Use NiMH AA batteries because they are cheap, removable, easy to find for buy on any street, also chargers for that batteries. To be a simple and cheap, there will no batteries charger in the player.

i agree with you casainho. but i'm a bit worried about battery life if we use 1 NiMH cell and ARM9 processor with 3.3V SDRAM and LCD backlight. the player may not run for long.

Li-Ion batteries are pretty light weight and cheap these days. and since we have the USB port, charging from a USB port is pretty handy. you can find a USB port everywhere these days, on TV's, in flights, etc.
who would want to carry a bulky NiMH charger along with a 2 sets of NiMH batteries?
There are 1 chip battery charger chips available and it is not very complex. i have some experience with batteries and power and can support in this area.

designing with LiIon is easier because it has a voltage range of 3.2V to 4.2V and we need is a buck regulator for 3.3V & 1.8V supply
If we go for 1 or 2 Cell NiMH, we will need a buck-boost regulator. (boost for 3.3V, buck-boost for 1.8V).
buck regulators are relatively simple and easy to design when compared with buck-boost.

Microphone
There is hardly any hardware complexity to add sound recording. only 3 components required (mic, bias resistor and decoupling cap). most of the work needs to be done in software. ;

AT91 atmel processor

Why not try to find an ARM9 from Atmel? Looks like they have low power consumption and there is a lot of information from Atmel. Even two community site backed up by Atmel: http://www.at91.com and http://www.linux4sam.org
Dev board - http://www.kwikbyte.com/KB9202.html

i personally like the atmel processor due to good support and documentation. this processor will also have long term availability. the only drawback is that there is no integrated LCD controller.

i think for RB v1 we can go for the AT91 processor and use the serial based LCD module.

there is a AT91SAM9261 processor which has integrated LCD controller but it comes in a BGA package
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card.asp?part_id=3638
it is available for $22
eval boards are expensive though.
i think this AT91SAM9261 is comparable to the samsung S3C2440.

[casainho]

i suppose it has all the documentation about the samsung 2440 processor that was almost impossible to find through google.
this solves one problem about the S3C2440.
what about availability and pricing of this processor? It is a BGA package.

No Samsung!! We are trying to make a Free/Open player, If Samsung dos not give datasheet of main IC of the player, let's move to a friend of good documentation!!

Batteries

Use NiMH AA batteries because they are cheap, removable, easy to find for buy on any street, also chargers for that batteries. To be a simple and cheap, there will no batteries charger in the player.

i agree with you casainho. but i'm a bit worried about battery life if we use 1 NiMH cell and ARM9 processor with 3.3V SDRAM and LCD backlight. the player may not run for long.

Li-Ion batteries are pretty light weight and cheap these days. and since we have the USB port, charging from a USB port is pretty handy. you can find a USB port everywhere these days, on TV's, in flights, etc.
who would want to carry a bulky NiMH charger along with a 2 sets of NiMH batteries?
There are 1 chip battery charger chips available and it is not very complex. i have some experience with batteries and power and can support in this area.

designing with LiIon is easier because it has a voltage range of 3.2V to 4.2V and we need is a buck regulator for 3.3V & 1.8V supply
If we go for 1 or 2 Cell NiMH, we will need a buck-boost regulator. (boost for 3.3V, buck-boost for 1.8V).
buck regulators are relatively simple and easy to design when compared with buck-boost.

Ok, I understand the technical challenges. Look, If Li-Ion, the hardware must have a charger, If NiMH no charger. Also I don't like of not be possible top swap batteries in my Sansa :-( When I go travel(to mountain), I can't charge and I can't swap batteries.
But ok, there must be good and bad points about the both technologies.

Microphone
There is hardly any hardware complexity to add sound recording. only 3 components required (mic, bias resistor and decoupling cap). most of the work needs to be done in software. ;

Okok :-)

AT91 atmel processor

Why not try to find an ARM9 from Atmel? Looks like they have low power consumption and there is a lot of information from Atmel. Even two community site backed up by Atmel: http://www.at91.com and http://www.linux4sam.org
Dev board - http://www.kwikbyte.com/KB9202.html

i personally like the atmel processor due to good support and documentation. this processor will also have long term availability. the only drawback is that there is no integrated LCD controller.

i think for RB v1 we can go for the AT91 processor and use the serial based LCD module.

there is a AT91SAM9261 processor which has integrated LCD controller but it comes in a BGA package
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card.asp?part_id=3638
it is available for $22
eval boards are expensive though.
i think this AT91SAM9261 is comparable to the samsung S3C2440.

Well, looks like that this V1 will more like a prof of a Free/Open hardware, next hardware version we will be able to change processor and LCD. LCD for sure that will changed, looks like a product with short life style.

MCU, I also like Atmel due to good support and documentation and also have long term availability, as you said, is what we are looking here for our hardware!! If we gain experience in Atmel processors, next time can be other new ARM from Atmel, better than this one and more energy friend :-) - but I don't know If future for Atmel will not be theirs AVR32 instead of ARMs...

[spark]

Microcontroller

check out the controllers offered by NXP
http://www.standardics.nxp.com/literature/other/microcontrollers/pdf/line.card.pdf

i like the ARM7 ones because they are relatively cheap, come in QFP package and consume lower power when compared to ARM9.

i found the following ones suitable

LPC247x  ($11, contains all that we need (LCD, USB OTG, ethernet, SD/MMC) but i could not find any online source)

LH79525 ($9.5 on digikey for romless. contains all that we need except SD/MMC controller. i guess we can manage SD/MMC through an SPI port and software).

LPC2378/88 ($10.5 on digikey. contains all that we need except LCD controller. i guess we can use serial based LCD.)

[casainho]

ARM7 for Rockbox? - I asked on IRC and got this replies:
- I would go with something faster - to support CPU-heavy codecs such as the high complexity AAC profiles (and Monkey's);
- yes, ARM7 is a bit of yday's tech;
- ARM9 is a pretty good choice, yeah.

I also would like to have something simple, cheap, low energy - but I want ALL audio files to be played on there, so, ARM9!

So, is this board ok? - Dev board - http://www.kwikbyte.com/KB9202.html
I found one that have all we need(less the DAC) for $225 - highlights:
# 180 MHz, 200 MIPS ARM9 highly-integrated core - Atmel AT91RM9200
....

[scharkalvin]

So, is this board ok? - Dev board - http://www.kwikbyte.com/KB9202.html

At first glance it looks ok, ($200) but will need LCD, A/D-analog, and kb added.
If the jtag port supports "wiggler" hw, then jtag will be cheap under linux/gdb.

[casainho]

So, is this board ok? - Dev board - http://www.kwikbyte.com/KB9202.html

At first glance it looks ok, ($200) but will need LCD, A/D-analog, and kb added.
If the jtag port supports "wiggler" hw, then jtag will be cheap under linux/gdb.

If you click on buy now will appear an option to buy in conjunction a bw LCD for $25 :-) - or we use that LCD or other "from Nokia", selling at Sparkfun.

That MCU don't have a A/D :-( - It looks like we can't find an ideal SOC...

[spark]

I also would like to have something simple, cheap, low energy - but I want ALL audio files to be played on there, so, ARM9!

going for ARM9 would make sense as far as supporting all codecs (and video codecs) is concerned. but if we want a music only player, i guess ARM7 should suffice. since we would want our hardware to have long support life, maybe ARM9 will be a better choice.

So, is this board ok? - Dev board - http://www.kwikbyte.com/KB9202.html
I found one that have all we need(less the DAC) for $225 - highlights:
# 180 MHz, 200 MIPS ARM9 highly-integrated core - Atmel AT91RM9200
....

i think i will prefer the AT91SAM9260 processor over the AT91RM9200 processor because it includes A/D converter, I2C, and NAND flash controller on chip.

a decent dev board is available for AT91SAM9260 at 139 Euros.
http://www.olimex.com/dev/sam9-L9260.html

in the future (for RB-v2) we can easily upgrade to AT91SAM9261 which is the same chip as 9260 but with an integrated LCD controller. so we will not have to do any code changes.
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card.asp?part_id=3638
(only issue is that it is a BGA package. but i hope by then we will have some experience/techniques to handle BGAs

dev board for this will be available soon
http://www.olimex.com/dev/sam9-L9261.html

That MCU don't have a A/D :-( - It looks like we can't find an ideal SOC...

AT91SAM9261 is the perfect SoC for us if we can use BGA,
or else we can settle for AT91SAM9260

[casainho]

Ok, and now, what about a LCD for that dev board?

[spark]

for LCD we can use the serial (SPI based) LCD.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=569

[casainho]

for LCD we can use the serial (SPI based) LCD.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=569

Ok, this sounds very good. But we have the problem of the carrier board, which is out of stock :-(

Or we don't need the carrier board? I think me or my friend at work will be able to solder the 0.5mm pitch :-) - It is pins in PCB, right? is not a plastic?

scharkalvin, do you agree with the L9260 dev board?
http://www.olimex.com/dev/sam9-L9260.html

I created a new page for V1: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerV1 - I let the first page for general information and put there a link for V1.
I don't know nothing about tools for developing, can anyone put some description there?

I never used JTAG - what do you think about USBprog for JTAG? - http://www.embedded-projects.net/index.php?page_id=165

I did order that LCD and the SMD connector:
Color LCD - SMD Connector - $1.95
Color LCD 128x128 Nokia Knock-Off - $19.95

I can test the LCD before have the main dev board, I have some dev boards with AVR8 bits, the example code for LCD should work straight :-) :-)

[cdtmbu]

Hi guys,
I am following this discussion with great interest. But one question:
Are you aware that the ARM9 from atmel as well as the olimex board do have USB full speed (12Mbits) only?
Chris

[casainho]

Hi guys,
I am following this discussion with great interest. But one question:
Are you aware that the ARM9 from atmel as well as the olimex board do have USB full speed (12Mbits) only?
Chris

I am aware. Looks like that the AT91SAM9R64 have USB high speed, but don't have USB host, just device. Looks like difficult to find a cheap dev board with a SoC that have all that we need/want.
Maybe would be good to find after the V1, one IC just for USB high speed and with OTG. On the V1, at least we can swap memory card for quick copy files.

[aarongoltz]

Hey-

I don't know if this is of any interest, but I just stumbled upon this product.

http://www.buglabs.net/products

The hardware and software are totally open source (from what I understand). The mini computer has modules that you can add-on, such as a screen or camera, but it can take any hardware that someone would make. Here are the stats of the computer:

Technical Specifications
   

    * ARM1136JF-S-based microprocessor
    * 1 USB 2.0 HS host interface/4 hub port connections
    * 1 USB OTG HS interface
    * 4 UART serial links
    * 4 channel SPI interface
    * I2C (400 kbits) interface/4 channels
    * I2S interface/2 channels
    * Smart LCD interface
    * Camera sensor interface
    * Micro memory card interface
    * MPEG4 hardware encoding/decoding
    * Hardware graphic acceleration
    * 10/100 Ethernet MAC
    * 802.11b/g


    * Base unit LCD module interface
    * Base unit onboard memory (FLASH/DDR SDRAM)
    * JTAG/ICE support
    * Serial debug port
    * Power system
    * AC operation
    * Battery operation/up to 4 external batteries
    * Fast battery charging/simultaneous of internal and external batteries
    * Smart power management support
    * Battery-backed real-time clock
    * Audio out via onboard piezo speaker


I hope someone finds this interesting.

Aaron