Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player

[spark]

AVR32 may be less power hungry than an ARM7/9.
The logic for choosing the processor must be a good blend of the following in the given priority
-low cost & QFP package
-easy to port
-low power consumption
-good support (documentation, sample code, etc)
-integrated peripherals

i haven't gone through RB code yet. i have a small question.
Does it use assembly instructions anywhere in any of the codecs?

if yes then i guess we should stick to ARM.

if no, then we can use any processor cause gcc is gonna do the tedious work. But make sure that AVR32 can handle the most complex audio codec (purely in C) at the selected Clock frequency.

[Bagder]

Does it use assembly instructions anywhere in any of the codecs?

if yes then i guess we should stick to ARM.

Yes it uses asm on numerous places.

As I've mentioned repeatedly, the codecs and other parts have been hand optimized (with asm but also plain C code) for the existing architectures. It really doesn't matter if AVR is faster than its ARM version in regular C code tests, as the existing code has been worked on a lot to run this fast on the existing archs. Assuming that rebuilding it for AVR will run as fast or faster is missing a lot what I'm trying to express.

Again: using AVR will require a whole lot of optimizing of code to get the performance you want. That optimizing much likely involves asm writing and/or using the AVR DSP instructions. If using ARM, you can take advantage of already done optimizations.

[casainho]

I did read the document that spark attach. I think there is a good opportunity that http://www.in-circuit.de/ , that have an online shop - http://ic-board.de/, and sells dev boards, will make one for this project, tailored for this project, more or less.

If they pretend to build a dev board for $50 and we can use that, good!! Don't know If that dev board must be with AVR32 or not, I will ask. I hope that dev board can have an ARM...

About LCD, that looks good and was already mentioned here. I asked by e-mail to http://ic-board.de/ If they have experience with some LCD and that they can assembly. Buying that LCD on Sparkfun will be for almost $50, LCD+ carrier board.

I have no problem at using ARM, it's clear for me now that should be the right choice, in spite of AVR32 eat less energy and have DSP instructions. I am worried now at finding a cheap dev board, $300 + LCD price is expensive for me and I think will not help to attract developers.

I did build a block diagram, It's on TWiki. It have minimum values, to make a cheap hardware, in case http://www.in-circuit.de/ or some other want to design a board for the project.

I think I found a cheaper dev boards - they just misses the LCD and DAC.

$104 - no datasheet: http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?cPath=154_170_268&products_id=2098
$120 - full docs: http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?cPath=154_170_268&products_id=1440

[spark]

I think I found a cheaper dev boards - they just misses the LCD and DAC.

$104 - no datasheet: http://microcontrollersho..._170_268&products_id=2098
$120 - full docs: http://microcontrollersho..._170_268&products_id=1440

These are not full evaluation boards. They are just modules. They cannot function on their own and require a baseboard to supply power and interface to I/O ports.

[scharkalvin]

Here are more complete eval boards based on the same cpu

http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=1438
http://www.armkits.com/product/sbc2410II.asp

and the datasheet for the cpu
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/S/3/C/2/S3C2410A.shtml

Looks like a good cpu, the cheap module would require a "carrier" board to be laid out to connect additional circuity for flash module, lcd, D/A audio amp, interface kb etc....  But the small module does solve the problem of soldering a SMT cpu chip to a pc board.

[casainho]

A better one, I think, for $200:



Highlights:
    * MCU: AT91SAM9260 16/32 bit ARM9â„¢ 180MHz operation
    * standard JTAG connector with ARM 2x10 pin layout for programming/debugging with ARM-JTAG
    * 64 MB SDRAM
    * 512MB NAND Flash
    * Ethernet 100Mbit connector
    * USB host and USB device connectors
    * SD/MMC card connector
    * RTC clock with 3V Li battery
    * on board voltage regulator 3.3V with up to 800mA current
    * single power supply: 5V DC required
    * 18.432 Mhz crystal on socket
    * extension header
    * Dimensions: 100 x 80 mm (3.94 x 3.15")

http://shop.olimex.eu/product_info.php?cPath=33_34_69&products_id=545

Hardware blocs of the RockboxPlayer


That dev board have all that is needed unless the DAC (candidate to be TLV320AIC23) and the LCD module.


Neo1973 - Open hardware mobile phone

This is an almost Open hardware(just the GSM modules are not Open), mobile phone for $300! It have all we need plus much more

Highlights:
    * ARM920T core, Samsung S3C2410
    * 64MB NAND flash
    * 128MB SDRAM
    * LCD Module with Touch Screen - color 480x640
    * Audio out
    * microSD-Card
    * Bluetooth
    * USB Host + USB device
    * Battery compatible with a Nokia BL5C battery

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_hardware

To much information, I don't know what to say.

It's very interesting, because OpenMoko is open mobile phone software stack and they make the hardware, the Neo1973, to have a way to run the OpenMoko! Looks like to me what I pretend, to have Free/Open hardware for Rockbox software.

[Bagder]

Regarding the Neo1973, note that they're about to ship an updated version: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA02_Hardware

... and their dev board is a lot more expensive than 200 USD AFAIK...

[scharkalvin]

A better one, I think, for $200:

No that's 200 Euro's.  Probably closer to $350 US. (I forget the exchange rate but the dollar has taken a beating lately)

[casainho]

I were at IRC chating with Bagder and others.

About Neo1973, I said: that hardware is much more than we need, expensive and not stable hardware, we can't control that :-( and agreed, saying: exactly - but with already existing sw, a company that sells it and an existing community.

I asked: do you have any advice for next steps? - I am lose... and he replied: yes, don't put your hopes to a company doing this
settle for a hw design and use that build-your-own style
prove that the design works and that there's working software
should put yourself in a better position when trying to convince companies
I think the very reason you don't already see companies selling products like this is because companies don't see much value in doing so
the idea isn't exactly new.

I am still waiting for an answer from http://ic-board.de/, I will just for more 3 days, after that I hope to contact Olimex and ask If they can/want to help in defining, designing, build and sell It for us, thinking in that they can upgrade their MOD-MP3 MP3 PLAYER MODULE - http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mp3.html

I think that until that we can continue on looking at dev boards and LCDs.

A better one, I think, for $200:

No that's 200 Euro's.  Probably closer to $350 US. (I forget the exchange rate but the dollar has taken a beating lately)

Eheh, you are right I am always thinking in Dollar = Euro - So, what is the cheapest one until now?

[eumesmo]

How much easier would it be to first design a home/car based rockbox player with IDE/CF/USB mass storage/Network support? Without power considerations, would that broaden and cheapen development? Wouldn't that attract the interest of a bigger share of the rockbox community, and afterwards create momentum for open-sourced hardware developement and replacement of all personal players? Do you still need dev boards when you can etch your own boards?

[casainho]

How much easier would it be to first design a home/car based rockbox player with IDE/CF/USB mass storage/Network support? Without power considerations, would that broaden and cheapen development? Wouldn't that attract the interest of a bigger share of the rockbox community, and afterwards create momentum for open-sourced hardware developement and replacement of all personal players? Do you still need dev boards when you can etch your own boards?

Network support is not implemented on RB, since I know.

For IDE/CF/USB mass storage/Network support, there should be an expensive hardware board, more work to port, more complex system.

I would prefer a minimal system, for cheap hardware, quick to port - keep that simple. Big and complex after have something simple working... I am sure that RB software started simple

And no, we need dev boards because we don't have technology to make our owns boards :-( - We can draw them but we can't make them nor assembly some parts as MCU and memory. Even If we can pay for make them and after we assembly, It will be more expensive than buy one.

[scharkalvin]

I am still waiting for an answer from http://ic-board.de/, I will just for more 3 days, after that I hope to contact Olimex and ask If they can/want to help in defining, designing, build and sell It for us, thinking in that they can upgrade their MOD-MP3 MP3 PLAYER MODULE - http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mp3.html

This olimex module in the link is a HW mp3 decoder and not a GP cpu that could run rockbox.

I found these on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Samsung-S3C2410-ARM-Development-Evaluation-Board-Mini_W0QQitemZ250199268979QQihZ015QQcategoryZ50915QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118
http://cgi.ebay.com/Samsung-S3C2440-ARM-Development-Evaluation-Board-Mini_W0QQitemZ250199268651QQihZ015QQcategoryZ50915QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118
http://cgi.ebay.com/Samsung-S3C2440-ARM-Development-Evaluation-Board-Ultra_W0QQitemZ250199268498QQihZ015QQcategoryZ50915QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118

The first one is probably complete enough and not too expensive.

[casainho]

I am still waiting for an answer from http://ic-board.de/, I will just for more 3 days, after that I hope to contact Olimex and ask If they can/want to help in defining, designing, build and sell It for us, thinking in that they can upgrade their MOD-MP3 MP3 PLAYER MODULE - http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mp3.html

This olimex module in the link is a HW mp3 decoder and not a GP cpu that could run rockbox.

My logic of thinking is that they could be interested in sell some other boards just for develop an audio player, as that one with combination of others that they sell. They also sell the OPEN EEG, under gadgets category - why not sell another one?

I found these on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Samsung-S3C2410-ARM-Development-Evaluation-Board-Mini_W0QQitemZ250199268979QQihZ015QQcategoryZ50915QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118
The first one is probably complete enough and not too expensive.

Yes, the first one, It just misses the LCD that is selling in their homepage, I can't see the price

I would not trust on that seller! Just 7 sells... US $219.00 + the LCD money is to much from trust in someone selling on Ebay...

I would prefer to buy for the some price the board that you suggested at www.microcontrollershop.com - http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=1438

The LCD that they recomend is the same price of the board, $220 - We must find a cheaper LCD!!

[scharkalvin]

This LCD was mentioned before.  You have to buy the carrier board because
soldering to the connector by itself is very hard.  So the total price is just under $40.

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=600
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=569

Sparkfun also has this arm9 development board:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8413#

and this LCD /Multimedia expander:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8410

The webpages also show related products.

[spark]

A better one, I think, for $200:
http://shop.olimex.eu/pro...=33_34_69&products_id=545

this uC (AT91SAM9260) does not have integrated LCD controller . We can use serial based LCD though.

Neo1973 - Open hardware mobile phone

This is an almost Open hardware(just the GSM modules are not Open), mobile phone for $300! It have all we need plus much more

good find. this one uses the same samsung processor i have listed in the summary doc.
this processor (Samsung S3C2410) has heavy power consumption and there will be problems as far as availability and support is concerned.

the processor is suitable for a feature rich phone, but may be an over kill for a decent RB player.

Do you still need dev boards when you can etch your own boards?

a dev board can be used as a reference. the software porting work can begin on this board while the hardware design is in progress.

I am still waiting for an answer from http://ic-board.de/, I will just for more 3 days, after that I hope to contact Olimex and ask If they can/want to help in defining, designing, build and sell It for us, thinking in that they can upgrade their MOD-MP3 MP3 PLAYER MODULE - http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mp3.html

if some company is gonna do everything, then what are we going to do?

Hardware blocs of the RockboxPlayer

-just 16kB flash will not be sufficient. need to have at least 8MB flash on the proto boards. this can reduce later, once we know the firmware size.
-4MB RAM may be very conservative to start with. protos can have 16/32MB RAM. we can chip off the excess later.
-battery, charger, power supply stage? this is a very important and challenging stage to design.
-memmory card -> memory card . we can finalize an SD card since it is compact and cheap.
-microphone? sound recording h/w can be added with no extra cost. the codec chip (tlv320aic23b) already supports it.