Rockbox Player - Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player

[Falco98]

I love this idea.  I'm growing increasingly uneasy with the seeming absence of really strong, currently-available rockbox targets, with an increase in the restrictive and DRM-loving players by apple and microsoft.  When my iRiver h140 dies (hopefully a long way off), I'm afraid to death of not being able to find a suitable replacement.  I think the real answer may lie in someone coming up with an open player like this, especially if it can be designed to support RockBox specifically (and presumably have an open architecture to facilitate the development of other systems from scratch).

This is thinking way ahead, perhaps, but I'd say figure out a core system that can support both hard drives and flash, and then when it comes time to actually create a form factor, just make two -- one for hard-drive players, and one for flash players.  Perhaps a HDD based player could be sold as just the shell, which a person could buy their own 2.5" HDD for, and do the last step of assembly.  I don't exactly require so much space yet, but the 160GB option really tempts me.  For flash players, perhaps a user could load their own CF card (or, even, put both CF and SD slots, and maybe-or-maybe-not include built-in flash memory).  Even the HDD model could have a SD slot, for convenience reasons (why not?).

As far as physical interface goes, there are some tough choices to be made - more buttons or fewer?  ipod-like, or completely different?  big and tough, or tiny and slim?  I'd say go for the shape of the iRiver 140, but perhaps with a less awkward joystick.  Or maybe scratch that and put controls on both sides of the screen in a layout similar to the Gameboy Advance.  Then again, once you've gotten the electronics all set to go, you could just experiment and see what people like.

But yeah... sign me up for a 160GB model, i'm sure i'll need one eventually ;-)

[g00ey]

At least a scroll-wheel would be nice... There surely is a huge number of them out there, here's one I found (pdf-download):

http://rocky.digikey.com/scripts/ProductInfo.dll?Site=US&V=516&M=AMRX-1500-1BWA

A
nd the AKM AK4396 DAC look good...

http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4396/ak4396.html

[zajacattack]

Would there be anyway to get a touch wheel?

[scharkalvin]

http://rocky.digikey.com/...US&V=516&M=AMRX-1500-1BWA

Nice, but they don't have any in stock, and you can't buy just one from them.
(single unit price isn't too bad though).

The scroll portion is just a quadature output encoder, easy to program.  You can get direction, distance, and speed parameters from this.  Combined with the 5 push buttons this gives an iPod type interface.  I'd add one or two extra push buttons for power/menu (sansa E200 like interface), alternate function (gigabeat like interface) and a lock switch.

[casainho]

At least a scroll-wheel would be nice...

First things first! I think that have Rockbox compiling and having sound one some Free/Open hardware is the first to do.

Simple to wire, simple to program, cheap and easy to buy buttons will be very good for start  

[fatfishy]

I don't know what kind of screen you would need, parallel or otherwise, but these seem nice

http://www.matrixorbital.com/index.php?sort=3a&page=1&cName=lcd-mop-graphic-lcds
~$23

and psp replacement screens (Sharp LQ043 K3146) are $30
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3217

[casainho]

fatfishy, thank you :-)

I would go for the, http://www.matrixorbital.com/product_info.php?pName=mopgl16064abyfy&cName=lcd-mop-graphic-lcds , because is cheap ~$24, simple to make software drivers for sure and looks like to have large pads for wiring.

I could not find datasheet, I would like to know If I can buy It on Farnell or Digikey and If it have backlight.

[spark]

Hello people,

i have some design experience with DSPdap http://dspdap.sourceforge.net
i could contribute something to the open hardware player.

let me first tell you guys what i think.

• Building a dedicated rockbox player is not gonna save the work of rockbox porting guys. there is always gonna be a demand for rockbox on commercial players
• building a player is gonna be more expensive than buying one off the shelf
• the player must have an attractive and robust casing. holding the electronics, LCD, disk and batteries together is not that easy. getting a look anywhere close to the commercial players is impossible.
  
• once the h/w development is done, someone needs to provide DIY kits and also fully assembled players, else the only guys using this player will be the developers themselves.   we don't want the design to rot in our shelves after it's done right?
  
• The only case i see a potential for the open player is that if rockbox cannot be ported on commercial players. is such a thing possible and when? this question goes out to the rockbox porting guys.
  

This is not to discourage us, but to make sure that our efforts won't go in vain.

-spark.

[Bagder]

if rockbox cannot be ported on commercial players. is such a thing possible and when? this question goes out to the rockbox porting guys.

There's still lots of Rockbox potential on a wide range of current targets. IMHO.

[casainho]

Hello people,

i have some design experience with DSPdap http://dspdap.sourceforge.net

Welcome Spark and thanks for being here. Since you already made a dap, like the one that is pretended(except with the LCD), what things you could not implemented? what would you do in a better way? I would like to ear you about your experience.

• Building a dedicated rockbox player is not gonna save the work of rockbox porting guys. there is always gonna be a demand for rockbox on commercial players
• building a player is gonna be more expensive than buying one off the shelf
• the player must have an attractive and robust casing. holding the electronics, LCD, disk and batteries together is not that easy. getting a look anywhere close to the commercial players is impossible.
  
• once the h/w development is done, someone needs to provide DIY kits and also fully assembled players, else the only guys using this player will be the developers themselves.   we don't want the design to rot in our shelves after it's done right?
  
• The only case i see a potential for the open player is that if rockbox cannot be ported on commercial players. is such a thing possible and when? this question goes out to the rockbox porting guys.
  

I believe that full assembled players can sell by some companies, I can give 3 examples:
* http://store.makezine.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKMP3KIT -> a DIY MP3 player but with MP3 IC decoder - why not upgrade for a better player version?;
* http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mp3.html -> Olimex MP3 player module;
* http://www.embedded-projects.net/index.php?page_id=165 -> USBprog - An open source all purpose tool (AVR ISP, ARM7/ARM9, AT89,JTAG, RS232, IO).
All this companies could be interested in sell assembled DAP, I believe. After we can try to find some others that make plastic cases, maybe that others companies can help on that, they should have contacts, experiences. I am also counting on someone in the community that have experience on this and can guide that part of the project.

Today, a guy send this message to mailing list: "Hello all! I will probably buy a new iPod Nano tomorrow. Now, here's my question: are all iPod Nano generations compatible with Rockbox or is there a generation (like the newest generation) that isn't compatible? Of course I don't wanna get an iPod I can't use of course! :-) Thanks! Robin"

And one answer: "Hi: The latest iPod nanos are not compatible with rockbox at this time. I would look on ebay for older iPods that are. I my self was lucky and bought an Ipod 5.5 gen back in June when they were  still being sold."

I don't think that is good for people have to buy used, old players. Will that guy do that? - In future we could also advice a not so looking nice and cheap player as Ipod but a perfect supported player by RB. I am dreaming with this :-) :-) I think we have the technology, knowledge and human forces to do that.

IMPORTANTE:
I got attention from http://www.embedded-projects.net/, they sells USBprog assembled kits and others circuits. I think that they are connect with http://www.in-circuit.de/.

I leave a message in theirs forum and i got a "sounds interesting please send me mail" - http://forum.embedded-projects.net/viewtopic.php?id=140.

I would like to get advices in what could I say on that e-mail. I would like to attract them to build and If possible to help in hardware, they should have experiencie.

Thank you.

[spark]

Welcome Spark and thanks for being here.

Thanks casainho. My pleasure.  

I believe that full assembled players can sell by some companies, I can give 3 examples:
* http://store.makezine.com....asp?ProductCode=MKMP3KIT -> a DIY MP3 player but with MP3 IC decoder - why not upgrade for a better player version?;
* http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mp3.html -> Olimex MP3 player module;
* http://www.embedded-proje...net/index.php?page_id=165 -> USBprog - An open source all purpose tool (AVR ISP, ARM7/ARM9, AT89,JTAG, RS232, IO).
All this companies could be interested in sell assembled DAP, I believe. After we can try to find some others that make plastic cases, maybe that others companies can help on that, they should have contacts, experiences. I am also counting on someone in the community that have experience on this and can guide that part of the project.

PCB and kit support
i know some people in my locality who can support us with PCB and components for the kit and also fully assembled players. however i guess they will have a Minimum Order Quantity (MOQ) requirement. what is the quantity we are looking at for the pilot lot. there has to be at least 2 pieces per developer. how much does this total to?

Enclosure
is there any CAD developer around here who can design the enclosure? we should be starting a thread for enclosure design. this is equally complex. i have no idea how this can be done.

PCB Tools
what PCB design tools are we supposed to use? anyone has experience with gEDA? i guess we should be using GPL tools. anyone has better options. we need to update this on the wiki.

[casainho]

PCB Tools
GPL tools if possible. I asked recently that question at Rockbox mailing list and I received an suggestion:
"I'd suggest giving KiCad a try:
http://www.gipsa-lab.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html
I have used this sw on several smaller projects, and although it is still
lacking several features from commercial software, it is quite usable
already.
The sw is available for both Linux and Windows platforms."

In my company we use Eagle and looks like a lot of Open source projects uses Eagle. Could be possible that company that will assembly will need to do the design of PCB because of technology machines to assembly??

PCB and kit support
With this project, I think that company that will assembly, will can earn some money, If It will sell to others than us. Maybe we should ask for some kind of support, maybe as help for design the PCB and enclosure. Could we get help in companies that also sells online? - If company will sell, they will want a good design... maybe this could be good for this project, find someone that also wants to sell like Makezine.

At this time we may be just 3 developers.

Spark, are you the "HenriValta" of TWiki? - Now I did put my nick in front of my name in TWiki, could you put yours?

Another thing, could you write in TWiki the development phases and times? - Looks like you have more experience than me :-)

[spark]

PCB Tools
Kicad looks good. it even has a 3D board viewer. 
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/Kicad_files/LogicielKicad_data/visu3d_sc.png

Eagle has a lot of limitations in the freeware version. see http://www.cadsoftusa.com/freeware.htm

PCB and kit support

At this time we may be just 3 developers.

By developers i mean hardware as well as software developers. simply making the hardware won't do. the software guys will need the player too to port the software to it.

we should not worry if the company is gaining a few bucks assembling it for us. after all they are saving our time.

Enclosure
to keep things moving, we can ignore the enclosure for now. we first concentrate on getting the hardware up and running. There will be quite some time for the player to reach from developer to non-developer user. This time can be used to make the enclosure.

Spark, are you the "HenriValta" of TWiki? - Now I did put my nick in front of my name in TWiki, could you put yours?

no i'm not. i haven't made any wiki entry yet. you had invited me to this forum a few days back, remember?

Another thing, could you write in TWiki the development phases and times? - Looks like you have more experience than me :-)

thanks for the compliment. i'll put in something there soon.

[Btwizt]

Enclosure
is there any CAD developer around here who can design the enclosure? we should be starting a thread for enclosure design. this is equally complex. i have no idea how this can be done.

Well its not CAD but i do use LIghtwave 3d, can do the same thing.

[casainho]

Spark, can you please say what is your background, experience? - hardware design including PCB? Software? or both? - and put that info on TWiki? - because until now, we have for hardware HenriValta; for software Scharkalvin; Btwizt for enclosure and I for little hardware and little software :-)

Maybe It would be good to have the planing work and assigned to people.

About PCB design, If HenriValta have experience, would you prefer to learn Kicad or let others do PCB in some other, even If not Open/Free tools?

About companies gaining some bucks, no problem for me, as I just want to have someone to sell me Free/Open hardware, however, If they will win, they could help, If we can get help from them, better, IMO.

Btwizt, would you help in design the enclosure? - If yes, please add yourself to the list in the page. Thank you.