Rockbox.org home
Downloads
Release release
Dev builds dev builds
Extras extras
themes themes
Documentation
Manual manual
Wiki wiki
Device Status device status
Support
Forums forums
Mailing lists mailing lists
IRC IRC
Development
Bugs bugs
Patches patches
Dev Guide dev guide
translations translations
Search



Donate

Rockbox Technical Forums


Login with username, password and session length
Home Help Search Staff List Login Register
News:

Welcome to the Rockbox Technical Forums!

+  Rockbox Technical Forums
|-+  Support and General Use
| |-+  Hardware
| | |-+  New cheap portable player in the market
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10

Author Topic: New cheap portable player in the market  (Read 32370 times)

Offline speachy

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 670
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2023, 10:23:29 AM »
> I would do what I can to fund it as well.  I shied away from reading that enormous thread...  I wonder if it would be easier now than it would have been back when that thread was started.  With Arduino, Raspberry Pi, and similar boards readily available.  I think someone would just have to take the time to design it, build a prototype...

The tl;dr of that (and all other "rockbox should build its own hardware") thread:

1) Nearly all of those SBCs are designed to be always-on, powered through USB, with no thought to running on a battery. Retrofitting that after the fact is pretty janky.
2) Building a prototype is relatively straightforward (that is to say, about the same effort now as it was ten years ago)
3) Designing and fabricating a custom PCB is easier/cheaper than ever.
4) Designing and tooling up to manufacture e case is where most of the fixed cost comes from, easily in the five digits.
5) 3D printing prototypes likely won't give us the fine detail necessary, and the per-unit costs will be astronomical for anything we'd hope to sell.
6) These fixed costs don't change if we want to build one unit or one million.
7) Supply chain realities mean that we'd need to commit to building every unit we ever hope to produce up front, as there'd be no guarantee we could build another batch even six months layer.  So that's a lot of part inventory that needs to be purchased in advance.
8) We have to produce something not only price-competitive with everything rockbox runs on today -- both new[-ish] units like the Eros Q/K players but also the huge inventory of secondhand ipods.
9) Going after the "audiophile" market is a pointless exercise, as they are always chasing the latest shiny thing and finding reasons we don't measure up to the competition (lacking features like tube amps and "oxygen-depleted gold-plated optical connectors to reduce jitter")

Not to say this is impossible, but to give you an idea about the kinds of numbers we're looking at, I'd say we'd need about $100,000 in up-front funding for design and tooling plus the cost of parts to build an initial 1000 unit run, which will probably be closer to $100,000, ie per-unit costs of about $100.  And actually selling those things would require even more up-front money for things like business liicenses, regulatory approval, and minor hassles like getting a license from MPEG/LA so we can decode AAC and other necessary codecs.  So did I say $100,000?  Make that $200,000 as lawyers aren't cheap.

the tl;dr of that:   Any hypothetical kickstarter would probably need to be something like $300/unit for a 1000-unit run, for something roughly equivalent to an ErosQ/K. (Real econmomies of scale start to kick in over 10,000 units, and that requires even more money up front)  Or folks can just buy an old ipod instead.

> Unfortunately, I don't have time for such fun.  If it were me, I would take the easiest route using readily available parts to get something that works.  It would probably be bulky and ugly.  That's why I thought it might be easier to just take a device that already exists and port Rockbox to it.

... And then there's what I didn't mention above, (10):  It's going to take time to write the software needed to make all of this work.  And all of this effort is the equivalent of several full-time jobs.

In an ideal world, the sanest approach would be to reach out to one of the Chinese ODMs and ask them for a quote to produce 10,000 units of an existing player design, conditional on having our logo on the case and a full set of schematics.  That would be something that would easily translate to a kickstarter.
Logged

Offline saratoga

  • Developer
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2023, 02:03:20 PM »
If designing and making an attractive and functional mp3 player case was easy there wouldn't have been so many awful, janky devices made over the years :)

PCB is easy enough though if you don't mind it not being a portable device. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 07:55:04 PM by saratoga »
Logged

Offline saucell

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2023, 06:49:29 PM »
Quote from: speachy on May 01, 2023, 10:23:29 AM
> I would do what I can to fund it as well.  I shied away from reading that enormous thread...  I wonder if it would be easier now than it would have been back when that thread was started.  With Arduino, Raspberry Pi, and similar boards readily available.  I think someone would just have to take the time to design it, build a prototype...

The tl;dr of that (and all other "rockbox should build its own hardware") thread:

1) Nearly all of those SBCs are designed to be always-on, powered through USB, with no thought to running on a battery. Retrofitting that after the fact is pretty janky.
2) Building a prototype is relatively straightforward (that is to say, about the same effort now as it was ten years ago)
3) Designing and fabricating a custom PCB is easier/cheaper than ever.
4) Designing and tooling up to manufacture e case is where most of the fixed cost comes from, easily in the five digits.
5) 3D printing prototypes likely won't give us the fine detail necessary, and the per-unit costs will be astronomical for anything we'd hope to sell.
6) These fixed costs don't change if we want to build one unit or one million.
7) Supply chain realities mean that we'd need to commit to building every unit we ever hope to produce up front, as there'd be no guarantee we could build another batch even six months layer.  So that's a lot of part inventory that needs to be purchased in advance.
8) We have to produce something not only price-competitive with everything rockbox runs on today -- both new[-ish] units like the Eros Q/K players but also the huge inventory of secondhand ipods.
9) Going after the "audiophile" market is a pointless exercise, as they are always chasing the latest shiny thing and finding reasons we don't measure up to the competition (lacking features like tube amps and "oxygen-depleted gold-plated optical connectors to reduce jitter")

Not to say this is impossible, but to give you an idea about the kinds of numbers we're looking at, I'd say we'd need about $100,000 in up-front funding for design and tooling plus the cost of parts to build an initial 1000 unit run, which will probably be closer to $100,000, ie per-unit costs of about $100.  And actually selling those things would require even more up-front money for things like business liicenses, regulatory approval, and minor hassles like getting a license from MPEG/LA so we can decode AAC and other necessary codecs.  So did I say $100,000?  Make that $200,000 as lawyers aren't cheap.

the tl;dr of that:   Any hypothetical kickstarter would probably need to be something like $300/unit for a 1000-unit run, for something roughly equivalent to an ErosQ/K. (Real econmomies of scale start to kick in over 10,000 units, and that requires even more money up front)  Or folks can just buy an old ipod instead.

> Unfortunately, I don't have time for such fun.  If it were me, I would take the easiest route using readily available parts to get something that works.  It would probably be bulky and ugly.  That's why I thought it might be easier to just take a device that already exists and port Rockbox to it.

... And then there's what I didn't mention above, (10):  It's going to take time to write the software needed to make all of this work.  And all of this effort is the equivalent of several full-time jobs.

In an ideal world, the sanest approach would be to reach out to one of the Chinese ODMs and ask them for a quote to produce 10,000 units of an existing player design, conditional on having our logo on the case and a full set of schematics.  That would be something that would easily translate to a kickstarter.

thanks for this write up! if only some chinese maker would just make a player we could rockbox and sell it until the end of time all our problems would be solved!
Logged

Offline llnx1

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • 0123456789
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2023, 08:04:23 AM »
This look interesting, Anbernic often releases device source code of their devices

Has anyone seen this k3s soc ? I searched on google but didn't find anything about k3s, only v3s

I believe this device must have something like cortex A7 and at least 32 / 64mb ram for run Game Boy Advance, what should be enough to run Rockbox port

This a video from this device

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVvBxdhKOQY

« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 08:08:58 AM by llnx1 »
Logged
Sandisk Sansa Clip+ / 32gb Micro SD
Sandisk Fuze v2 / 32gb Micro SD
Earbuds: NiceHCK YD30 / KBEAR Stellar

Offline speachy

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 670
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2023, 01:58:12 PM »
Quote from: llnx1 on May 15, 2023, 08:04:23 AM
I believe this device must have something like cortex A7 and at least 32 / 64mb ram for run Game Boy Advance, what should be enough to run Rockbox port

I'd be shocked if it didn't have the hardware specs to run rockbox quite well, but the lack of a dedicated 3.5mm headphone jack is concerning.  It's also not clear if there's expandable storage (they didn't show one side of the device at all, so there _could_ be an SD slot there...) but it looks like a really nice form factor, and the guessimated price point (~$40) is pretty nice too.
Logged

Offline llnx1

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • 0123456789
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2023, 03:58:20 PM »
Quote from: speachy on May 15, 2023, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: llnx1 on May 15, 2023, 08:04:23 AM
I believe this device must have something like cortex A7 and at least 32 / 64mb ram for run Game Boy Advance, what should be enough to run Rockbox port

I'd be shocked if it didn't have the hardware specs to run rockbox quite well, but the lack of a dedicated 3.5mm headphone jack is concerning.  It's also not clear if there's expandable storage (they didn't show one side of the device at all, so there _could_ be an SD slot there...) but it looks like a really nice form factor, and the guessimated price point (~$40) is pretty nice too.

Apparently it will be a Funkey S clone by Anbernic which have a internal SD slot, a SOC is a v3s (not k3s) and bad side is a lack of p2 port (need a USB C > P2)

https://linux-sunxi.org/V3s

For 40~45 dollars and being easy to sell (Aliexpress) I believe it is a good option to develop a port, let's stay tuned when it launches
Logged
Sandisk Sansa Clip+ / 32gb Micro SD
Sandisk Fuze v2 / 32gb Micro SD
Earbuds: NiceHCK YD30 / KBEAR Stellar

Offline saucell

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2023, 12:32:35 AM »
great find guys! looking forward to reading this thread as more info comes out!
Logged

Offline speachy

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 670
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2023, 10:42:17 AM »
Quote from: llnx1 on May 15, 2023, 03:58:20 PM
Apparently it will be a Funkey S clone by Anbernic which have a internal SD slot, a SOC is a v3s (not k3s) and bad side is a lack of p2 port (need a USB C > P2)

If I could wave a wand and build a "just for rockbox" player, I'd pick the S3 as its SoC -- It's essentially the V3s with double the RAM (ie 128MB) but in a much smaller BGA package.
Logged

Offline osaka

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #113 on: May 18, 2023, 06:32:50 AM »
Quote from: meyertime on April 22, 2023, 04:18:01 PM
The remaining unknown is the Shenju Jointbees chip, but I'm pretty sure it's an Actions clone.  It has the same form factor, and their site does list a similar chip with only 216 Kb RAM
The firmware for the chip is definitely different from Actions. My player enters some kind of upgrade (boot ROM?) mode if VOL (down) is held on reset: enumerates as mass storage VID_301A&PID_2800 and seems to accept C0 00, C0 03..06 vendor-specific commands (only managed to get a CSW back yet); IsActionsFirmware (CC) stalls the endpoint instead.
The company itself seems closely tied to Zhuhai Smartlink Technology Co., Ltd. as they use their USB Vendor ID and website looks almost the same. There's front page excerpts for the datasheets in English in the News section but sadly no other new information. They boast OTA function for the TWS headphone chipsets, I'm currently trying to locate an app responsible to pull some firmware out maybe.
Logged

Offline saucell

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2023, 11:03:25 PM »
https://anbernic.com/products/rg-nano?variant=43921381818625

the anbernic is super beefy in specs but also expensive! still worth rockboxing imo i would buy one!
Logged

Offline K4sum1

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • Eclipse
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #115 on: September 10, 2023, 04:24:59 AM »
Probably not able to run Rockbox, but the Droid Razr M is very cheap (~$15 used) and an (old) Android phone. Probably a lot more capable than new devices of similar price.
Logged

Offline sandreas

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #116 on: September 14, 2023, 10:27:35 PM »
FYI:

I filed and issue at the FunKey S hardware repository, wether they would be interested in forking a dedicated audio player...

I think the FunKey S would be a very interesting platform, because it is completely open hardware / firmware and the only things missing would be a touchscreen (Sitronix ST7789V), an audio jack and an appropriate case . However, the quality of the selected audio chip would be something very important...

Perhaps someone is able to work on this, I would be interested.

As an Android device, I'm pretty happy with my Unihertz Jelly 2e, which has Android 12, is pretty fast, has an Audio Jack, a programmable custom button (I use it for media control), decent battery life and is about 100 bucks used. 
Currently I'm developing a Fully Cross Platform App (Win,Lin,macOs,iOS,Android) with AvaloniaUI (C#) for Music and Audiobooks (ToneAudioPlayer), but it is pretty far from being released.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2023, 10:29:29 PM by sandreas »
Logged

Offline speachy

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 670
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #117 on: September 14, 2023, 10:47:11 PM »
The FunKey hardware is actually very well suited for a DAP -- The V3/V3s SoC would be my choice if I were starting a design from scratch today, and the only real strike against the FunKey is its clamshell design -- it has to be open to be used (there's a magnetic switch that completely kills power when you close the unit up)

But a touchscreen is IMNSHO worthless in a DAP, because without hard buttons, you have to be able to see the screen in order to effectively operate the device.  This makes it a non-starter for visually impaired folks, or in situations where looking at a screen would be unsafe. 
Logged

Offline Trzyzet

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #118 on: September 15, 2023, 07:11:47 AM »
Quote from: speachy on September 14, 2023, 10:47:11 PM
The FunKey hardware is actually very well suited for a DAP -- The V3/V3s SoC would be my choice if I were starting a design from scratch today

The problem is you have only one choice with this SoC - Use built-in audio codec because the only I2C must be already splitted for charge IC and buttons.
For me it's a big no no.

Would be nice to find a cheap, not very powerful SoC with 64/128MB of RAM, support of 512GB cards or more and USB 3.0 controller.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 07:30:56 AM by Trzyzet »
Logged

Offline speachy

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 670
Re: New cheap portable player in the market
« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2023, 10:13:40 AM »
Quote from: Trzyzet on September 15, 2023, 07:11:47 AM
The problem is you have only one choice with this SoC - Use built-in audio codec because the only I2C must be already splitted for charge IC and buttons.

Putting aside the point that I2C is a low-speed shared bus that can have many devices on it, audio data traditionally is sent over an I2S bus.

The V3 (and S3) has an I2S bus.  But oddly enough, the V3s does not.  Probably because it's a QFP package with fewer pins than the BGA that the V3/S3 uses.

(Honestly I'm surprised the FunKey used the V3s over the S3; it's a much larger physical footprint.  Though that lower density might make for a cheaper overall BoM)

IMO the S3 is pretty much the perfect SoC for a DAP, due to having plenty of oomph and integrated DRAM.  It's similar in that respect to the Ingenic X1000, which is already widely used for DAPs.   Both Allwinner and Ingenic have older parts that are still plenty good for Rockbox (F1Cxxx and JZ47x0, respectively) and newer parts that do little but pile on more CPU cores that Rockbox has no real use for.
Logged

  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10
« previous next »
+  Rockbox Technical Forums
|-+  Support and General Use
| |-+  Hardware
| | |-+  New cheap portable player in the market
 

  • SMF 2.0.19 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines
  • Rockbox Privacy Policy
  • XHTML
  • RSS
  • WAP2

Page created in 0.188 seconds with 20 queries.