iPod Video 5G with iFlash adapter - is RockBox really hopeless in that case?

[RockBoxNewB]

Hi everybody,

Rockbox has been my faithful companion for a couple of years now, I couldn't imagine my iPod 7G 160GB without it anymore.
Unfortunately, hard drive space is getting smaller and smaller, and I decided to get myself an older iPod Video 5G with 30GB built in, so I can mod it with an iFlash Quad microSD adapter. Modding worked, and I have successfully upgraded it to something around 350GB of storage. Using RockBox on these advices seemed to be common practice, so that's what I did...but I was disappointed to see that it just doesn't work as it should.
There are some issues that I can at least find a workaround for... but the fact that playback is often interrupted by skips and that the iPod becomes unresponsive at times are just things I cannot get along with in the long haul. After having these issues, I read some of the other posts, stating that RockBox, in general, seems to work poorly with these adapters.
Is this really a hopeless case, or is there anything underway that might improve RB support on those devices? If not, there is really no way for me but to get rid of that thing again, since without RB, it is basically worthless for me.

Any feedback or ideas would be very much appreciated!

RBNB

[Frankenpod]

I assume you've read this thread?

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,51460.0.html

Edit - though 350gb on an originally-30gb ipod (i.e. 32mb ram model) is a bit of a stretch - doesn't give you much on-board RAM for coping with the large database you may have if you are using that much storage.  Could still work with rockbox, but the trouble is the original firmware might have problems, which would in turn cause problems with syncing in OF mode.

Basically, try (re) synching your library using drag-n-drop in OF mode, but it might be that you need to start with a 60gb or 80gb model if you want to make full use of 350gb.  Though, on reflection, it will probably work, just that negotiating menus and building the database might be very slow and choppy.

[RockBoxNewB]

HI Frankenpod!

For some reason, although I read through all threads all the way back to 2014 in this sub-section of the forum, I did not see that one! Thanks for that hint.
I also asked around in the Rockbox IRC channel, and the people there also kept pointing me towards RB's USB handler which seems to cause problem with these iFlash adapters. I figured that as well, I already noticed that the only way to transfer all my files is using Apple's OF for the procedure. Otherwise, transfers would get cancelled with a "data loss during write" error.
Unfortunately, even after transferring everything per drag-and-drop from the OF, I still get those skips. Not only from large FLAC files, but also standard mp3s.
Right now, my only hope is an iPod with more RAM - although that means I can basically throw away my iPod 5G. Well, I guess this is the cost of experimentation :-D

If anybody else has an idea or experienced the same thing, I would still highly appreciate any feedback!

Thanks,
RBNB

[saratoga]

The amount of ram won't make any difference for rockbox. You need an ad adapter that is compatible with out Atat driver, or to hack our ata driver to do what your adapter expects.

[Frankenpod]

As you say its a 'quad adaptor' I assume that means it's Tarkan's, as I don't know of another quad adaptor.  I have had no problems with other Tarkan adaptors (haven't used the quad), at least when using the OF to transfer files.

Though I have found some brands of cards really don't like Rockbox.  So it could possibly be the card brand you are using, I guess.

As far as RAM is concerned, I can only say I've found rockbox performs much more reliably (if using the database feature), on ipods with more RAM.  It doesn't freak-out completely as soon as you have too many tracks the way the OF does, but it really seemed more likely to freeze while switching menus and much more prone to require multiple attempts to build the database.  Possibly if you don't use the database feature at all it wouldn't be an issue.

[saratoga]

The database uses the same (tiny) amount of ram on 32 and 64 MB iPods, so I dont  think it should affect it either way.

[RockBoxNewB]

Thanks saratoga and Frankenpod for your insightful and quick answers, your help is very much appreciated!
Right now, I'm a bit at a loss what I should try next... or what I should try at all. And yes, you are right - I purchased one of Tarkan Akdam's iFlash Quads, I am also not aware of any alternative products in this category.

For storage, I use one SanDisk Ultra 128GB as well as two Samsung Evo+ 128GB micro SDs. From what I read on Tarkan's page, all of these are confirmed to work with the adapter! I COULD try to switch them around (at the moment, the SanDisk is in slot 1, but I could put one of the Samsungs there...however, I'm not sure if this will work easily since the entire storage structure might be wrong then).

You could say I was putting all my hope into the attempt to modify a later iPod with more RAM - but your answers suggest this is not going to improve things radically. That puts me back to square one.
Going without the database is no option for me in the first place. From other threads, I understood not too much attention is put on this feature and it seems that not many use it. For me, it's essential though! At the moment, I have a collection of around 7500 songs, and the main feature for me to sort them is by RATING. Yes, you read right. For several years now, I have rated each and every song I put on my RockBox device. That's still how it works best for me, as silly as it might sound to some. Without the database feature, all of that would be impossible.
After all, I'm not sure if the database itself is the reason for my problem. I did not have time to test properly whether using RockBox but deactivating the database changes anything. But as I said, without the database, the device is without value for me.

Similarly, using only the original Apple firmware is out of question. I need the massive file format compatibility of RockBox, particularly for FLAC files since almost my entire collection consists of those.

As far as the USB issue goes... I would not mind having to boot into Apple FW everytime I transfer files to the iPod, as long as that would help. I need to do that anyway, since all file transfers fail via the RockBox USB handler anway. This also worries me a lot, because I HAVE already transferred all files via the Apple firmware, so according to what you say, there shouldn't be any issues anymore! Or do you mean I have to transfer everything via ITUNES? What I have done so far is start the Apple OF, connect USB but still use drag-and-drop via Windows Explorer to send the files over.

I hope this clears up some things! Please let me know what your guesses are.

Best,
RBNB

[Frankenpod]

The only thing I can say is that I have found some brands of full size SD cards don't like Rockbox on ipod Classics even if they work with OF.  Don't know if that is even relevant to ipod videos (which I think deal with the drive differently?) or to micro SD cards.

I don't suggest transferring via iTunes, what you have done is what I do and it works for me.

Are you saying the thing works if you ignore rockbox completely and do everything with iTunes/OF?  If you only have flacs I would assume you can't even test that, so maybe there's something else wrong and its not actually to do with rockbox?  (i.e. bad usb cable, bad drive cable or drive cable not fully inserted in iflash, faulty card, card not formatted the right way, etc?)

You could also remove some cards, reformat and start again, and see if either the samsung or the sandisk card works on its own in slot one.
(If you rearrange or remove cards you will have to completely restore and start again)

(If one brand doesn't work I'd be interested to know as I might get a quad adaptor myself some time!)

[saratoga]

Thanks saratoga and Frankenpod for your insightful and quick answers, your help is very much appreciated!
Right now, I'm a bit at a loss what I should try next... or what I should try at all.

Its pretty clear given the constant stream of people posting with problems that these adapters do not work with rockbox.  Unless you're intending to add support for whatever they need to the ATA driver, you can try using the Apple firmware. 

[[Saint]]

I have to concur with saratoga here regarding RAM.

Even on the 32MB iPod Videos an overwhelming percentage of RAM is left over for the audio buffer. The amount used by the database is truly insignificant. You can view this yourself very easily in the debug menu. Throwing more RAM at this when we already have plenty to spare won't solve anything.

On the iPod Videos I would be far far far more willing to believe that the bottleneck is either disk or CPU based (CPU on the iPod Videos is less than stellar, three or four bands in the parametric EQ and you're going to have trouble with real-time decode of lossy formats), or plain observational bias.

I'm not too willing to think the latter without experimentation though, since the fancy new filesystem code no one actually needed ended up nuking database-in-RAM capabilities because it "wasn't needed" and "should be fast enough", something that I am not even going to pretend I'm not bitter about.

If someone gets adventurous and wants to beat me to the punch comparing database performance (with both database-in-RAM enabled and disabled on the legacy build, preferably) with git head vs. 95a4c3a (just before the WIP filesystem rework) that would be neat.


[Saint]

[RockBoxNewB]

Once again, I'm really happy about the great feedback you three guys provided, which allows me to look at the problem from very different viewpoints. And by the way... you brought back the spirit of experimentation in me :-)

I wasn't able to grab hold of a newer iPod anyway, so I decided to go back to the basics and try to re-build my iPod 5G from the ground up. I started by taking out all 3 microSD cards. In the meantime, I had ordered a 200GB SanDisk Ultra (yes, I know, megalomania calling). I decided to put just this one single card inside the iFlash Quad, leaving the other three slots empty for now. I wanted to cover 2 cases in one, because if this helped, I could limit the reasons to either the iPod being too slow to handle more than one card simultaneously OR it just not liking one (or all) of the cards I used so far.
Since a complete restore was required now anyway (like one of you mentioned), I could also make sure that all files are transferred through Apple's OF.

For now, I only found the time to test it with a sample of 10 files (no lossless ones, though). Even after activating the database, there were no hiccups or skips after about 10 minutes of testing. If my plans work, I will do the real testing tomorrow, once again transferring my entire collection over and also trying to import the database which I built up in recent years. My hopes are back that this might work in the end. 200GB are no 384, but it's still better than nothing and will buy me another couple of months before space runs out!

@[Saint]: By the way, if there's any chance you can provide a build for the 5G which still includes the LOAD-TO-RAM feature (just like you did for my iPod Classic, which was a revelation), that would be very much appreciated! I'd love to test its performance on my particular device.

Best,
RBNB

[cereal_killer]

I could also make sure that all files are transferred through Apple's OF.

Do you mean disk mode (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201544#ipod-click-wheel) or just an USB connection when running the OF?

[RockBoxNewB]

What I meant was just a USB connection when running the Apple OF - I haven't tried disk mode to be honest. I actually don't think that this is what causes the problem... the data transfer itself seems to be fine like this. The skips don't seem to occur at specific points but rather randomly.
By the way, in my experiment with the 200GB SanDisk Ultra, I did NOT format the drive prior to inserting it into the iFlash Quad. It was bought new, I took it out of the packaging and inserted right into the adapter. I don't know if this makes ANY difference, but the three 128GB cards were formatted to FAT32 first.
Right now, I am transferring my whole collection over to the iPod. I have made another short test - it still seemed to work, but at some point the iPod would become unresponsive again, right from the System menu where I could not remember having pressed any buttons... it "woke up" again after a couple of minutes, so this should not mean anything for now.
When all music is transferred, my first test will be to play through some tracks, still only using the standard RockBox theme, NO equalizers or any additional options activated, and the database also remaining turned off.
If that should work, I will try to activate additional options one by one and check when the iPod starts to get into trouble again.

As always, if you've got any ideas, just let me know!

RBNB

[[Saint]]

As an aside, whether you formatted the micro SD card or not doesn't really matter at all if you then do a complete restore of the original firmware, which itself will setup the storage to its preference (FAT32 on Windows based machines and HFS+ for Macs). As long as you're going to do a complete restore it doesn't really matter what the format of the storage is beforehand, it doesn't even need to have any partitions or a partition table.

Basically a long winded way of saying that as long as you're doing a restore of the original firmware, anything goes as long as the hardware and software have a path to the raw storage that they can agree on.


[Saint]

[RockBoxNewB]

Hi guys,

let me give you another status update on how things are going.
After my first simple tests went well, I then went one (or maybe even two) steps further and activated my favorite theme as well as the database. Except for one situation where my iPod was stuck in one of the menus, still no trouble. After that, I copied my database over from my other iPod (7000+ entries) and used the "import modifications" option. This caused quite a number of hiccups. The first three times, "FAILED" was displayed and it didn't work. I have no clue what the problem was there...I re-initialized and rebooted a couple of times, and the third time was the charm! Phew. The import procedure took something between 2 and 3 hours (!!!) and drained the battery down to 30% again. Around 70 entries seem not to have been imported unfortunately... but considering the almost 7000 that HAVE been imported properly (as far as I can judge), I think this is a good bargain.

Since then, I have been using the iPod for a little more than one hour - and there have been NO skips at all! Touch wood.

From what I described, does anyone of you have an idea what the problem might have been in the first place? Is it the fact that I used just ONE big micro SD card as compared to three "smaller" ones? Would not seem to make sense to buy an iFlash Quad then, if you get nothing but problems when you use all slots...

By the way: which files do I need to copy between devices in order to import the database? Does the "changelog" suffice or do I also need one of the other files labeled "database..."?

Thanks once again,
RBNB