What's the future for rockbox ?

[steak]

Correct me if I'm wrong : as the Sansa Clip+ & Clip zip have been discontinued, there are only a very limited number of stable/unstable usable ports available as new.
These would be :
Sansa Fuze+ : nice and affordable but some critics on the buttons usability (users who like buttons saying these are not as good as they were on other Sansas)
HiFiman & HiFi E.T : I blindly guess these players are good but they are very expensive
There is the Rockbox as an android app option as well but if the device does not run it properly it needs serious computing abilities. 

Of course there are thousands of old players working and many will last but still I wonder if that situation will not end up with rockbox being used only by users who have the ability to fix and maintain old ports or develop their own builds for Android.

I don't know how many of such advanced/experts users there are and if they are happy to leave the majority unable to cope with the situation but I wish something was done to keep it available for all.

In my case for example :
I have 2 Cowon D2, a Clip+ and a Clip zip. The Clip+ and the Clip zip will die when the battery does. The D2s will last as long as the buttons and touchscreen do and spare battery are available.
I have used a couple of Android smartphones for about 3 years until they got stolen. Rockbox ran flawlessly on both.
Three next smartphones have problems with rockbox and I could not get support from the rockbox forum : in short I was advised to learn how to make my own build. "A great challenge" it must be. I looked at the learning process and gave up. I work in caring. I wonder if it would not be a "great challenge" for patients to learn medicine instead of relying on professionnals.
The only way for me to use Rockbox on an android port is to find one that works like my previous one did. Unfortunately I cannot try one after another until I find it and when I did an attempt to build a list of such device through the forum, I ended up patronized (to say the least) by some smart guys who eventually closed the topic.

Maybe I'll try to find "testers" through android forums. Besides the fact it may work, it would be good for three things :
One it may attract new users to the app.
Two I could do that on forums written in my mother tongue where discussing with pretentious experts would not be exhausting and pointless... so I hope.
Three I could also pick and give opinion on the hardware and be understood by sensible people... so I hope, again.

Finally I wonder how many estimated active users are there in the world, how many new ? How many "basic" users meaning guys like me who can see how good it is, only when it works.

Cheers to all open minded users and devs !!

[pamaury]

I think more generally, the problem is that there are very few new MP3 players on the market:

• there are unbraned players, with terrible firmwares, using chinese chips and no two players are similar so it's impossible to support them
• there are few brands like archos (but less and less), or Sony, but they are usually expensive for the actual value

So in my opinion, it is true that Android might be the only realistic future for Rockbox but there are very few active developers left and they don't have much time available.
Unfortunately, being one of those developers, I don't have the time neither the skills to do that port.
However I'm still working on a few ports on Sony players but I really don't have much time.

[steak]

I think more generally, the problem is that there are very few new MP3 players on the market:

• there are unbraned players, with terrible firmwares, using chinese chips and no two players are similar so it's impossible to support them

So in my opinion, it is true that Android might be the only realistic future for Rockbox but there are very few active developers left and they don't have much time available.
Unfortunately, being one of those developers, I don't have the time neither the skills to do that port.
However I'm still working on a few ports on Sony players but I really don't have much time.

In my experience Android ports are very similar and most apps will work on any but that does not seem to be the case with rockbox. Different ports with the same resolution will handle rockbox just fine, others not quite or not at all. Wether it relates to hardware, build version or android version, I don't know. I made an attempt to identify which smartphone work well based on user's feedback but the only result was a pointless argument.

Wouldn't the number of active dev grow if Rockbox had more users through Android targets ? I mean Android app developpers should be interested, at least some of them. Correct me if I'm wrong Rockbox is the only one of a kind compared to all similar tag based media players and to likewise similar music streaming service based players. It's also the only one with a huge list serious of settings that can only be found on a computer software otherwise.

Given how good and unique it is, I cannot believe there is a lack of new potential users, developpers and even targets (just how many new android device come up per year, how about the Mozilla smartphones ?). What we need is a (Master >:-|) plan.

[wodz]

Android developers are different creatures. They live in javaish object oriented world while we are old school devs fighting for performance and resource usage. This two wolds doesn't have much in common. The only possible marriage would be rockbox as lib with native android ui. The problem is that there is only one folk working in this direction and his time is very very limited.

[[Saint]]

Its really hard to not read this as "Rockbox is dying, and I want everyone but me to do something about it because I can't or don't want to learn how".

And I would really love to be able to just simply ignore this, but I cannot:

<snip>...and when I did an attempt to build a list of such device through the forum, I ended up patronized (to say the least) by some smart guys who eventually closed the topic.

That's certainly an interesting way of putting it.

In reality what happened was several people (myself included) attempted (successfully) to prevent you from spreading misinformation. Claims were made that were demonstrably untrue, and these factual errors were corrected for the benefit of other users. Had your findings been based on fact, there would have been no problem at all.

Regarding needing a "Master Plan", what we actually need, is boots on the ground (or fingers at keyboards, rather). Its all very well to come up with a plan, but without anyone willing to implement it, its a complete waste.

What is needed, for lack of a better way of putting it, is less people telling us what we need and more people being prepared to actually do the those things.

Rockbox has never been a product, however. Its built by developers, for developers. If Joe Average gets a kick out of it, that's great, but they're not the target audience. There's no market. There's no advertising. It just is. If people want to use it, that's great. If they don't, that's great too. If they want to contribute...all the better.


[Saint]

[steak]

Its really hard to not read this as "Rockbox is dying, and I want everyone but me to do something about it because I can't or don't want to learn how".

I can see your point and yet is it so hard to not read it as something else too ?? [Pamaury] and [Wodz] did... On the other hand... I (think I) can't learn how or so I dont want to... but I have read your reply to my other post where you are making an effort to change my mind : I'd be an idiot to not consider it !! (I  will answer to it as well later)

And I would really love to be able to just simply ignore this, but I cannot:

I thought you might, wondered if you would and o be honest again, I wished you did not : I felt insulted at the time and frustrated not to be allowed to answer but now I can. And I will, if you allow me to send you as a PM. Clearly I think you are wrong about a few things but I don't see the benefit for others to put it down here

Regarding needing a "Master Plan", what we actually need, is boots on the ground (or fingers at keyboards, rather). Its all very well to come up with a plan, but without anyone willing to implement it, its a complete waste.

Oh well... Given your nickname, I would have thought you'd like the Almighty Word. My plan is to :
> answer to user 's questions on the mailing list, which I do when I feel able to
> advise anyone to try rockbox on a usable target, which I do whenever I get the occasion,
> help translate the manual, which I don't and probably won't : rockbox translated menus are self explanatory down to a decent level, anyone wanting more advanced usage will probably understand english already. That assumption was confirmed by experience on every ocassion I met. Despite that years ago, I contributed to the menu or manual translation, I can't remember what. Something tiny but confusing.

Rockbox has never been a product, however. Its built by developers, for developers. If Joe Average gets a kick out of it, that's great, but they're not the target audience. There's no market. There's no advertising. It just is. If people want to use it, that's great. If they don't, that's great too. If they want to contribute...all the better.

By developpers, yes of course : no devs, no Rockbox. For devs, yes again : who else is interested in making "stable" release including all plugins ? No advertising, thank you Devs ! No market, no profit, no break-even point, that's why rockbox is so feature full. Whatever you say.

Besides... if it was just for devs, why would it be available for any user. (not to mention the open forum). And what about the blind ? Not all of them use it, none have to but having a followed-up firmware is quite something for them I think. And how about music ? Could I be wrong assuming the love of music has motivated many developpers in their contributions ? (I'm sure some get greater motivation through the community project and so on...)

Mmmh... Let me give you an example : Research is done by scientist for scientist, if people want to read their work, that's great, if they don't that's great too but once their work comes out as something usable, once it IS USED, like a medicine or anything less important, is it still just "by scientists, for scientists" ? I say no and the same applies  to Rockbox. Just like anything else Rockbox is what everyone makes out of it. No big deal about it, it's only a piece of code, but then much simpler things can be more than you'd expect. I read a post that you wrote about the great challenge it can be for those who learn how to compile their own build. I know what you mean and you are surely right. However if I was able to do that, I'd be more interested by the result than by the challenge. Not that it's nothing, just because Rockbox is just a tool helping me to enjoy music, one of my actual passions. The best tool in its portable field. So far. Period.

Cheers.

[steak]

Android developers are different creatures. They live in javaish object oriented world while we are old school devs fighting for performance and resource usage. This two worlds doesn't have much in common.

That and the "no product" / "no market" makes it clearer why the project does not easily attract developpers, despite its actual assets

The only possible marriage would be rockbox as lib with native android ui. The problem is that there is only one folk working in this direction and his time is very very limited.

"lib with native android ui" : ok, whatever that means, doesn't that have more in common with Android world ?

[steak]

And how about other smartphone OS ? Windows phone ? Mozilla Phone ? Does the fact that Rockbox is a community project interfere with the developpment of an app in any of these environments (or whatever you call them) ?

Boots on the ground, fingers on the kbd, only wondering  "What's the future for rockbox ?"

[saratoga]

And how about other smartphone OS ? Windows phone ? Mozilla Phone ?

These are at least as dead platforms as Rockbox

If you want to do mobile, Android makes by far the most sense.  But porting a complex operating system into a smartphone app is not trivial, and of course we aren't Java which is annoying to Android developers.  Probably the best way would be to break out parts of rockbox into a native Java app. 

Does the fact that Rockbox is a community project interfere with the developpment of an app in any of these environments (or whatever you call them) ?

No, of course not.  You can do whatever you like with the source code. 

[steak]

And how about other smartphone OS ? Windows phone ? Mozilla Phone ?

These are at least as dead platforms as Rockbox
Android makes by far the most sense

Who can tell ? Remember Psion, Palm, Symbian, Blackberry,... Yes Android & Apple rule but

If you want to do mobile, .../...
No, of course not.  You can do whatever you like with the source code.

If only !!! Alas I'm not a developper

[[Saint]]

Let me first start with saying:

I understand.

It seems a fickle gesture, to say the least. But I do understand. Something you love, something I love, is dying a slow death from obscurity, and its painful. I know it too.

This discussion doesn't often happen so publicly, but history repeats, and these same feelings have been shared by quite a few individuals in the past few years. This has been happening, albeit at a somewhat glacial rate, for some time now.

So, I feel you man. I do.

Good intentions and strong feelings aside, ...good intentions and strong feelings don't write code.

There has been a few reasonably recent fresh faced additions to the active developer community, and that's a great thing. However for the large part, the community is ageing. Gone are the days of infinite free time and energy, and here are the days of pressing work commitments, furthering education, health concerns, family life, work life, etc. and so on.

I myself have several projects that one could quite reasonably class as abandoned, and it sucks. I like it no less than you do.


[Saint]

[monoid]

My opinion is quite simple. RockBox is just fine as it is. It works, it does more than most/all of OF and more than I'll ever use and will learn to use, so I do not see the point in discussion about the future. OK. There always may be some improvements, but they are not needed. RockBox may stay as it is for dozens of years without any harm to users.

We have been converted from users to consumers. We have been made to think that lifespan of our toys counts in months (up to few years). But wake up. There is no problém, if SW does not change for years! If it works as desired.

OK. RockBox needs to attract developers to port it to new devices. And generally only young guys have enought time to do the job. Of course there are exceptions. But even if noone writes a single line of RockBox code since now, RockBoxed devices will live on and be used for next 10 years.

So, the cards are in the hands of DAPs. If they produce decent hardware with miserable firmware, than there is hope for fresh blood in RockBox developers. If DAP producers will produce crap, than RB will not help. And if they will produce great DAPs with excellent firmware than RB would not be enought attractive for youngs. Hard to guess, what will come. But I doubt, that excellent DAPs with excellent firmware hit the market. ;-)

[steak]

My opinion is quite simple. RockBox is just fine as it is. It works, it does more than most/all of OF and more than I'll ever use and will learn to use, so I do not see the point in discussion about the future. OK. There always may be some improvements, but they are not needed. RockBox may stay as it is for dozens of years without any harm to users.

I do agree. It's interesting to understand what the dev do to improve it or make it reach "stable" status but for us users, once it is usable, we are not really affected bay whatever they do.

We have been converted from users to consumers. .../... SW does not change for years!

We who ? We the old guys ? I'm fifty, my best DAP is my D2, it's about 10 years old now and I'll still use it in 10 years I'm pretty sure. So is it the younng guys who have been converted or educated to consume ? Hum, hum, that's what the market wants but when I look around to my younger friends, I see many with open and free mind who don't want to be told what they want. My opinion is people and world don't change as much as we (we who ? ;-P) think. And there are no young or old dummies. In fact there are, simply it's got nothing to do with age. Young dummies end up old dummies and old dummies were initielly young dummies ! That doesn't make the rest of us (you and me OF COURSE) smarter though, as in the end we ALL wonder who's ruling this mad world...

OK. RockBox needs to attract developers to port it to new devices. And generally only young guys have enought time to do the job. Of course there are exceptions. But even if none writes a single line of RockBox code since now, RockBoxed devices will live on and be used for next 10 years.

Maybe yes, maybe not. That depends on the hardware quality and on the way it's treated by the user... I will be survived by my best players ! (even without battery, they'll be usable on mains)

So, the cards are in the hands of DAPs. If they produce decent hardware with miserable firmware, than there is hope for fresh blood in RockBox developers. If DAP producers will produce crap, than RB will not help. And if they will produce great DAPs with excellent firmware than RB would not be enought attractive for youngs. Hard to guess, what will come. But I doubt, that excellent DAPs with excellent firmware hit the market. ;-)

If there is no market, there will be no DAP, that's for sure. The best portable Portable CD players were iRivers, then the market was wiped out by DAPs and firmware wise, I never came across anything good since. It looks to me the DAP market has shrinked. It may survive because battery life is crap with smartphones but it is a niche market. There is also the HiFi niche, trouble is HiFi DAP are expensive, I am pleased to see that some dev have been able to work on some of these targets (HiFi lovers ? courtesy of an owner ? of the brand )

So finally and until the next gen portable gizmo, we are left with smartphones and tablets and there I wonder What's the future for rockbox ? because in my user experience, Rockbox as an app has not always been usable and I wonder if it can be :
1- the targets may be able to do many things but I have not seen a single one lasting more than 5 years
2- the target change, the target OS version change, does that mean "Rockbox as an app" must be developped/updated for ever to keep up ??

[steak]

And if they will produce great DAPs with excellent firmware then RB would not be enought attractive for youngs. Hard to guess, what will come. But I doubt, that excellent DAPs with excellent firmware hit the market. ;-)

There has been very good original firmware in the past = good features, easy operation and of course totally stable.
To my knowledge there has never been excellent firmware comparing with rockbox = open for customization through settings OR in text mode OR in "advanced user" mode OR in dev mode.
That said, wether very good or excellent FW attract anyone is no question of age, it depends on what they want. Many users I know, most I should say, even those who love not only music but HiFi sound surprisingly, are happy with just any usable DAP. Happy and wise folks !

[monoid]

@Steak
I agree with you in many aspects. You say almost the same as me. I did not speake about all users/people, but about most of users/people. Most of people accepted the game that things are consumed. I spoke about young developers (read secondary school, university students), because among those there is higher chance to find people to do the job.

If experienced SW developer does work for free it costs him say 50-100 USD/hour (he could get that money, if he did something commercial.). Porting RB to a new DAP might také several months of work (it is my guess, I am not RB developer). So, it must be very revarding for experienced SW developer in some way to do the job for free... It is much easier to cross the treshold for young one. His time is less expensive, he has more free time, he does not have feed family, care for kids, ....

I am not sure what you mean by RB as application. Each porting to e new DAP needs a lot of work. I am not sure about android port. One could consider it application. But to my understanding it is not official version (port) of RB. I tried once RB on tablet and there was something that did not work satisfactory. Probably the resolution was the issue, I do not remember.

But generally speaking if some SW works on certain OS it might work on several next versions of that OS. But it may happen that it will not work on next. One never knows.

I also use iRiver (H120 and H140). And Sansa Fuze+. I might buy several Hx20 to have a stock, till I die. So for me RB might live for next 30-40 years without any change. I would like to thank all RB developers for their excellent job and enourmous amount of time spent on project.