What platform takes more advantage of Rockbox functionalities?

[Edil]

Hi, long time don't post in here. My iriver h140 has died :'( So I'm looking to buy another mp3 player.

Apart from the toslink port that is something unique of the iriver h1xx (i'm gonna miss it), on what platform can you get most of rockbox functions?

 

[saratoga]

Devices with a color screen can use album art, devices with line out can use line out, etc.  Aside from different hardware features its the same OS.

[Julian67]

...My iriver h140 has died :'( So I'm looking to buy another mp3 player.

Apart from the toslink port that is something unique of the iriver h1xx (i'm gonna miss it), on what platform can you get most of rockbox functions?

 

As well as the optical output the H140 has an extremely good quality line out.  You probably won't find either in any of the budget players and it's a fairly unusual combination until you spend quite big.

The H100 and H300 series of players have a relatively powerful output - they won't match the current expensive "boutique" players from companies like iBasso but are noticably more powerful than the smaller Sansa players.  This can matter if you use headphones or IEMs with impedance higher than 32 ohm.  For typical low impedance IEMs (usually 12 to 16 ohms)
 the smaller Sansa players might be better (because they don't produce the obvious hiss that the iRivers make with highly sensitive 'phones).

Another aspect of the H140 is that you can open the case and swap out the battery and the disk.  It's not bonded and sealed like modern players and you can easily open it and replace parts.  Are you really sure yours died?  Maybe all you need is a new battery or disk or perhaps both.  Batteries are found easily on ebay and are cheap enough that it's worth testing.  Disks cost a little more but if you have a Compact Flash card you can get a cheap adapter and test/diagnose your player using the CF card as its disk.  If your player isn't dead (only resting) it is well worth keeping it and upgrading to a bigger capacity battery and replacing the ancient, slow disk with a SSD.  It doesn't cost that much to add a battery that gives you over 24 hours of playback and a 128GB SSD which makes the player boot in about 3 seconds and perform really nicely (no more lags or pauses while you navigate, no more waiting on directory changes, no more occasional noise while the disk churns or the cache fills or empties or whatever it is).

[Edil]

The battery was already replaced and the HD was working fine, sadly the main board got fried  :'(

In regards to headphones I mostly used the player as my home (toslink to A/V receiver) and car (mini stereo cable), portable "CD changer". I did used it with a pair of Shure E3c but not that much (by the way the E3c also broke some time ago) :'(  I'm really going to miss the toslink connection so I'm gonna have to get used to using the mini stereo cable.

You said Sansa? Out of the three models that are rockbox compatible the fuze+ is the best one right?

Thanks for your suggestions I think that I will go that way.

[Julian67]

I like the Fuze+ more than the other Sansa models but most people hate it for its touchpad control interface and prefer the Clip+ or Zip.

If you use highly sensitive IEMs you might hear odd noises from the Clip series (squeaks, pops and so on). See http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaAMS

Some clip+ hardware variants have noise in both rockbox and the original firmware

The Fuze+ doesn't do this but has a barely noticeable hiss with highly sensitive low impedance IEMs.

I think if you use your player in the car then probably the Zip is best for your use as the screen is bigger than the Clip so you can configure it to be legible.  Avoid the Fuze+ or you will probably die in a Paul Walker type fireball while trying to skip a track.

edit typo its it's

[saratoga]

The hxx0 series actually have fairly poor output by modern standards (but then they are a decade old) so I wouldn't recommend one for line out specifically.

[Julian67]

The hxx0 series actually have fairly poor output by modern standards (but then they are a decade old) so I wouldn't recommend one for line out specifically.

I'm not sure "fairly poor" is such a reasonable description. Certainly the headphone output measures less well than modern players if using low impedance headphones and you can hear this in the form of hissing with highly sensitive, low impedance IEMs, but it is very good with slightly higher impedance headphones (such as the 32 ohm impedance buds supplied and typical of the time) and the line out is pretty hard to criticise.  This is one of those players that is better if you use the line out to a modern headphone amp and bypass the player's headphone stage, though I have to say that on the go it's easier to just use my Fuze+ as any difference outdoors will usually be more than nullified by ambient noise.

H340 Line out: http://rmaa.dfkt.tk/Single_Players/iRiver%20H340%20-%20Line%20Out.htm



Those measurements are for 16-bit 44.1 kHz.  It's hard to see anything amiss.  Real life usage does nothing to suggest an error in the measurements.

Using the headphone output on my iRivers is similarly good so long as the attached IEMs are not 10/12/16 ohm impedance (they hiss).  With slightly higher impedance IEMs or headphones (I have Koss KSC75 - 60 ohm impedance - and Sennheiser Momentums - 24 ohm impedance) the iRiver H100/300 series still sound really good and they put out a little bit more voltage than the tinier modern players so actually can drive a relatively less sensitive portable headphone.

If I was choosing one of the Rockbox supported players I own or have owned to use as a line out device it would be the H140 every time, immediately next would be the H340.  For use with sensitive IEMs with low impedance a Fuze+ or Fuze or Clip+ is better.

[monoid]

I would add that H1x0 has digital optical input/output. What more would one wish? Plug it in a hi quality D/A and no quality problém.

[saratoga]

The hxx0 series actually have fairly poor output by modern standards (but then they are a decade old) so I wouldn't recommend one for line out specifically.

I'm not sure "fairly poor" is such a reasonable description. Certainly the headphone output measures less well than modern players if using low impedance headphones and you can hear this in the form of hissing with highly sensitive, low impedance IEMs, but it is very good with slightly higher impedance headphones (such as the 32 ohm impedance buds supplied and typical of the time) and the line out is pretty hard to criticise.

I should probably have said "fairly average".  Its not bad, but not great by modern standards.

This is one of those players that is better if you use the line out to a modern headphone amp and bypass the player's headphone stage, though I have to say that on the go it's easier to just use my Fuze+ as any difference outdoors will usually be more than nullified by ambient noise.

This is ridiculous.  The plots you've just posted are comparable to what most modern players will do into actual headphones. 

[Julian67]

Perhaps you misunderstood my post? 

I didn't post any plots or figures related to directly driving headphones.  Those figures are for the line out.  It's not even the same physical socket.

The line out is sufficiently better than the headphone out that using a decent external amp gives an audible improvement.  What is ridiculous about noting that?  I'm referring to the separate physical line out but perhaps you were thinking about the headphone out? 

My reference to my Fuze+ doesn't state and wasn't meant to suggest that Hxx0+amp is better than a good modern player into headphones, it is just to point out that  any advantage gained by using Hxx0 line out plus amp vs Hxx0 alone is typically negated by external/ambient noise so anyway I tend to pick up my Fuze+ when I go out as it is more convenient and sounds fine.  I apologise if this wasn't unambiguously clear and hope this clarifies it.

And in what respect would these line out figures be "fairly average"?

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB    +0.05, -0.03 Noise level, dB (A)                                                     -92.6 Dynamic range, dB (A)                                               92.6 THD, %                                                                       0.0023 THD + Noise, dB (A)                                                  -84.9 IMD + Noise, %                                                          0.0081 Stereo crosstalk, dB                                                   -92.2 IMD at 10 kHz, %                                                        0.0072

The only measure that isn't very good is for THD + Noise, but as the tester doesn't publish the figure for the other players no comparison can be drawn.  These figures are good, not poor and not average.

Which portables are there which offer significantly better dynamic range (92.6 dB) with 16-bit?  Looking at the same person's meaurements of iPad 2 and Clip+ headphone sockets under load (because they don't have a dedicated line out) the Hxx0 line out is superior in every measure listed.  Looking at some players which do have a dedicated line out the Hxx0 measures much better than the Sony A845, is broadly indistinguishable from the Hifiman HM-801 (except the Hxx0 is actually much better on frequency response).  It's also better than the Cowon O2.

The Hxx0 line out is very good so long as you don't mistake it for a headphone out and try to use it to drive your 'phones (it will sound real funny).

[saratoga]

The line out is sufficiently better than the headphone out that using a decent external amp gives an audible improvement.

Yes, but its worse than just getting a newer player and using the stock headphone output directly, making it completely useless with an amp . . .

[Julian67]

No, it isn't "completely useless" with an amp.  A really good quality line out into a good amp can't rationally be described as "completely useless".  It might not always be the best or most convenient choice because a player is not just a line out or a headphone out.  People also choose them on capacity, physical size and weight, appearance, branding, control interface, screen quality and size, repairability, battery life, ability to survive impacts/vibrations and so on.

A very good line out into a good amp is "worse than just getting a newer player and using the stock headphone output directly"?  How so? Because you say so? 

You make a series of contra-factual negative assertions about what is demonstrably a really good platform for Rockbox and, if line out is important, still one of the best portable players ever made.  Despite the verifiable measurements showing (broadly) "very good to excellent" you assert "poor, average, worse, useless" and all without any kind of substantiation or fact.

Did someone from iRiver pee in your soup?

[saratoga]

No, it isn't "completely useless" with an amp.  A really good quality line out into a good amp can't rationally be described as "completely useless".

You said you'd choose the H1x0 as a line out device with an amp "everytime".  But this is pointless, you'd get better quality just using the headphone output without the need to carry a whole extra on a lot of newer devices. 

A very good line out into a good amp is "worse than just getting a newer player and using the stock headphone output directly"?  How so?

Lower quality output.

[Julian67]

You said you'd choose the H1x0 as a line out device with an amp "everytime".  But this is pointless, you'd get better quality just using the headphone output without the need to carry a whole extra on a lot of newer devices.

Perhaps you can move from assertion and into explanation and illustrate how to get better quality into an amp by using a headphone out that doesn't measure as well as the line out?  Some facts or data would make a refreshing contrast to blunt assertion.

Why would anyone need to "carry a whole extra on a lot of newer devices"?  An amp is not necessarily portable.  Even many headphone amps are not portable.  Most times I've used headphone amps they have been static, and most times I've used the line out of portable devices it has been into home amps and receivers and domestic radio/CD combos.  Another typical use is into car audio systems.  Nothing extra needs carrying except a cable.  Even if someone does buy into that whole head-fi rubber strap and chunky cable thing it still isn't  "a whole extra on a lot of newer devices", it would usually be one device of similar dimensions to a portable battery pack or similar (and the chunky S&M rubber band).

Lower quality output.

How do you arrive at asserting that the Hxx0 line out has "Lower quality output"  when it measures very well indeed?  Is your argument "because I say so"?  Is your opinion or assertion somehow intrinsically more authoritative than other people's data?

The Hxx0 series have a really good line out.  Even if you don't like me or don't like iRiver, the Hxx0 players still have a really good line out.  For 16-bit audio their line out is still about as good as you will find on a portable device.  The Hxx0 line out is not poor.  It isn't useless.  It isn't average.  It isn't worse than the line out on extremely expensive portables 10 years newer than the H1x0.

Avoid kimchi, especially if you hear splashing sounds from the kitchen and the waiter stays to watch you eat.

[saratoga]

You said you'd choose the H1x0 as a line out device with an amp "everytime".  But this is pointless, you'd get better quality just using the headphone output without the need to carry a whole extra on a lot of newer devices.

Perhaps you can move from assertion and into explanation and illustrate how to get better quality into an amp by using a headphone out that doesn't measure as well as the line out?  Some facts or data would make a refreshing contrast to blunt assertion.

http://outpost.fr/rmaa/iPod_Classic-D2000.htm

Even if you don't like me or don't like iRiver, the Hxx0 players still have a really good line out. 

I think you need to calm down and stop taking people disagreeing with you so personally.