[Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS

[mfe555]

I was not proposing a double click action. Actually in the OF this works even with a long time between the two clicks.

The first press takes you from the file list (or elsewhere) to the main menu, the second press exits the menu into the WPS.

[Llorean]

Could it be made configurable where exiting the menu takes you?

You missed my point. You can't exit the menu. You can open other things from the menu, but there's no "exit." It's the bottom level.

You try to get to WPS by choosing the appropriate menu item, but you can't find it. You put the player next to your eyes but your hand is shaking as you move and you can barely see the items. Finally you get cursor to the WPS menu item... ah, a baby on the road! You crash.

I'd suggest not to leave the WPS while cycling. Or learn about the voice UI if you insist in entering menus while doing something that requires your sight. Why would you be in them if you're in a situation where it's unsafe? If you've just accidentally pressed "home" from the WPS pressing it a second time takes you back. The only time it doesn't work to take you back is if you've been browsing outside the main menu, which you shouldn't be while cycling in the first place (and if you are, surely if you can browse and select songs, you can browse and select a menu entry).

Just as an added note, I personally have absolutely no problems returning to the WPS with the current setup. As a tip, flip the clip over so that your thumb is on the back and place one finger over "home" and one over "select." Yes, I realize this isn't a very normal way of holding the device, but you're trying to do it one handed while riding a bicycle. You'll have to do it by feel anyway, and it's pretty trivial to do it this way.

Currently pressing the home button once takes you back to the main menu, and a second time returns you to wherever you were just at. In many cases, if you accidentally left the WPS you can just return immediately to it.

[mfe555]

You missed my point. You can't exit the menu. You can open other things from the menu, but there's no "exit." It's the bottom level.

I agree. Nevertheless pressing "menu" when you are in the menu can trigger an action. I'd be happy if that was going to the WPS, or if it was configurable, for example

(a) go to WPS when "menu" key pressed in main menu
(b) when "menu" key pressed in main menu, go to whatever was active before the menu was entered

I think (b) is the current implementation?

Post Merge: September 01, 2011, 01:54:05 PMBy pressing "select" during playback you can enter the file list. If, after browsing, you decide not to change to a new track, the only way of getting back to the playback screen without interrupting the song being played is to navigate to the main menu and select 'Now Playing'.

So, (c): when "menu" key pressed in main menu, go to whatever was active before the menu was entered, BUT go to the WPS if the file list was active when the menu was entered

Probably too complicated, but I think that is the OF behaviour.

[Llorean]

Yes. And Rockbox controls are not traditionally configurable. It's more likely to be simply changed than made configurable. But as I said, in most cases of an accidental press you can return to the WPS. In the cases of an intentional press, returning to the WPS already isn't hard. It's not a particularly strong reason to make an exception for this one device.

[lolmaus]

Llorean, on OF i used to press Next to switch to next track. I believe it's perfectly safe.

On Rockbox, i can't do that. The player might be in different modes. This fact forces me to investigate in what mode it currently is prior to doing anything.

This is wrong. Donald Norman "The Design of Everyday Things" or Victor Papanek "Design for the Real World" both state that it's a very bad idea.

Why should someone need to do a finger trick to obtain an ability to switch to next track? That's ridiculous.

[Llorean]

Llorean, on OF i used to press Next to switch to next track. I believe it's perfectly safe.

Rockbox is not the OF. It would be practically impossible to browse Rockbox while reserving the Next/Prev keys for track navigation. The fact that you believe it's perfectly safe is the error here. One could just as easily say "I expect Play/Pause to always Pause." The fact that you don't wish to learn how to use Rockbox is not a compelling reason to change how Rockbox works. Return to the WPS when you're done with non-WPS functions and you'll have no problems. You don't *need* to do a finger trick to change tracks, you need to do it if you're out of the WPS and desire for some reason to return to the WPS without looking at your player or using the voice UI. Just like you'd need to press a button with your proposed solution as well. If you learn to return to the WPS after you're done outside it, you'll never have a situation that you'd have with *both* implementations - that of pressing Next Track and having something unexpected happen.

Meanwhile if you get into the habit of not returning to the WPS, "next track" could start a new playlist, or change a setting, or do other things. It's simply not a wise idea for you to get into the habit of pressing it without knowing the state of your device, independently of your suggestion for changing the controls. "I do things I shouldn't do, so you should change the controls in a way that doesn't even make them less harmful" is hardly a strong argument.

[mfe555]

Short form: The Rockbox behaviour is reasonable, but some users would like it to be more comfortable.

[Llorean]

This seems like an acceptable change, although I'm not sure if we allow double click button actions?

Although it's not what he suggested, it does seem a better alternative than the current two-button method. We used to have short then long "next" to skip folders. I don't see why short then long "home" couldn't be "resume playback."

[saratoga]

I was not proposing a double click action. Actually in the OF this works even with a long time between the two clicks.

The first press takes you from the file list (or elsewhere) to the main menu, the second press exits the menu into the WPS.

Since home already brings you back to whatever your previous screen was, thats probably not going to be acceptable. 

[pabouk]

I'd suggest not to leave the WPS while cycling...

Llorean, sometimes you have to leave the WPS. The most frequent example in my case is stopping playback. (I cannot use pause as it does not store bookmark when the player turns off automatically after a delay.) I think there should be simple way how to get to the WPS and how to resume playback.

IMHO the current function of the home button which alternates between two location is not so useful. I almost do no use it and I was always wondering who considers the alternating function so useful. In the past I was using Rockbox on H100 series and there was a single button for resuming playback/going to the WPS.

Although it's not what he suggested, it does seem a better alternative than the current two-button method. We used to have short then long "next" to skip folders. I don't see why short then long "home" couldn't be "resume playback."

Good idea.

By the way: do you think it is useful to have both stop and pause on flash players? I think pause is unnecessary as resuming playback is instantaneous on such players.

[Llorean]

Llorean, sometimes you have to leave the WPS. The most frequent example in my case is stopping playback. (I cannot use pause as it does not store bookmark when the player turns off automatically after a delay.) I think there should be simple way how to get to the WPS and how to resume playback.

Why do you need to bookmark while cycling? I mean, what's the situation where you'd want to stop playback, and then resume it, without looking at the player?

IMHO the current function of the home button which alternates between two location is not so useful. I almost do no use it and I was always wondering who considers the alternating function so useful. In the past I was using Rockbox on H100 series and there was a single button for resuming playback/going to the WPS.

The H100 has an extra button to spare for this. The common approach so far has been that if we "lose" a button, rather than shuffling other button features around to make room for it, we put its features either in free areas (like an extra long press of Play being Stop/Power Down on some devices) or in combos. It doesn't really make sense for a button labeled "Home" to take you to the WPS in the first place. There's nothing about the button that would indicate it does this, and the common Rockbox function for the menu button is the alternating behaviour. To some degree it's beneficial to have button functions stay the same between devices. If you have an iPod and then get a Clip+, you know that the "Home" button does what the "Menu" button on the iPod did, and there's little more to learn about the issue. There are reasons to override this, and that's why I've been asking questions about the use cases to explore how bad the situation is here. I own a Clip+ and haven't had severe issues with it at all. There's a lot of complications with having a button that, when pressed from some screens resumes playback, and when pressed from others does not, since it makes it easier to accidentally resume when you may not want to. The short->long combo, much like the current one, will always resume (from screens that can be resumed from) and so isn't as prone to accidental behaviour.

By the way: do you think it is useful to have both stop and pause on flash players? I think pause is unnecessary as resuming playback is instantaneous on such players.

Pause allows you to do things like pause, then seek to a specific location, to queue something up inaudibly. This simply isn't possible while stopped. The reason Pause and Stop both exist is that they really are functionally different beyond simply the resume time.

[torne]

(I cannot use pause as it does not store bookmark when the player turns off automatically after a delay.)

This behaviour is a bug, which should have been fixed some time ago (see FS#11493). Is it definitely still not saving the bookmark on idle poweroff for you, with a current build?

[mfe555]

This seems like an acceptable change, although I'm not sure if we allow double click button actions?

Although it's not what he suggested, it does seem a better alternative than the current two-button method. We used to have short then long "next" to skip folders. I don't see why short then long "home" couldn't be "resume playback."

Sounds good to me.
To achieve this, it would not even be necessary to detect the "short then long" sequence. As the first press of "home" already brings you to the main menu, all that would be required is that a long press of "home" takes you to the WPS from the main menu:

"home" -> main menu

short "home" from main menu -> back to where you've been (as already implemented)
long "home" from main menu -> WPS

[Llorean]

Long press of "Home" already brings up the quickscreen. The whole point of suggestiong short+long was so as not to displace existing functionality.

[mfe555]

Sorry, I was not aware of that.

So "short then long home" sounds like the best solution.