Layout of this website could be clearer.

[rockbox2u]

You people continually use vocabulary totally unnecessarily foreign to the average user.  Are you trying to appear superior?  What in the world is "porting"?  How about - The new program works or it doesn't.  How about simple, plain English.  Is this too much to ask?  I have wasted countless hours over the years here and often find the answers were "hidden in plain sight" because of poor choice of words in the descriptions.  
Right on the first page is a good example:  Releases and Current Build.  
It should be Download and Models.  
Do you people not even speak English?  Current Build refers to a version of a program.  Not the version of the hardware it will be installed on.  
Why not pick a few of the most common models used with Rockbox and funnel those users into those areas of the site applicable to their needs?  Ipod Nano, Sansa Clip and Fuze would be a good start.  
The Sansa Firmware is just a nightmare.  I've tried and tried and cannot get it to even load properly with the Fuze V2 or Clip V2. Would it be too much to ask to supply a URL to the exact link for it?    By the way the Clip is now bricked.  Thanks.  NOTHING turns that little beast on anymore.  On my Nano it works so perfectly.  Rockbox, once on your player is a dream to work with.  I'd just love to get the Sansa Fuze with its larger color screen and micro SD slot to work with Rockbox.  It seems impossible thanks to people that can't formulate the more simplistic instructions for the public.  
Guess English in high school isn't important to people these days.  
If a simple word adequately describes something - use it.  The stupidest thing in the world is to change something for no reason.  Especially in this busy society where people don't have time to learn the latest geek lingo describing the same function they used yesterday.  
Want Rockbox to be used by more people?  Now you know what to do.  Make it simple.  

[BigPapi]

It is called Rockbox Technical Forums, you know.

And I don't see what is so difficult about loading RB onto a Sansa player....I've done it on five different ones. You asked

Would it be too much to ask to supply a URL to the exact link for it?

Well, the answer is listed here....due to legal reasons, they cannot directly give us the Sansa firmware here....yet I had no troubles finding it. The Fuze port (yes, I said port )  was quite easy to install and worked great.

And as far as your comment on English in high school....quite a few of the Rockbox developers are not from the USA or the UK...yet I understand them perfectly, and I am not a computer guru.

If you've

wasted countless hours over the years here and often find the answers were "hidden in plain sight" because of poor choice of words in the descriptions. 

then maybe you should stick to factory firmware and leave Rockbox to the rest of us.

[Llorean]

As to "Releases" and "Current Build" they DO refer to a version of the software. It's interesting that you're assuming we're using them wrong, and referring to the hardware, rather than taking a few seconds to actually look at what's linked. "Releases" gets you the last release version of Rockbox. The "Current Build" link allows you to download the current SVN head version.

If you're going to complain about us using confusing terms, at least complain about places where the terms are actually wrong or confusing. The fact that you got confused because you assumed we were referring to something we aren't is hardly our fault. Especially since what you claim we should be referring to actually is what we're referring to.

[AlexP]

If you've

wasted countless hours over the years here and often find the answers were "hidden in plain sight" because of poor choice of words in the descriptions.  

then maybe you should stick to factory firmware and leave Rockbox to the rest of us.

Or even help, god forbid.  Yes, it isn't perfect. However the specific example you gave (current builds) was wrong, and other than that I see nothing but a rant.

[dreamlayers]

I actually do see a point here. The website is designed for people who have some technical knowledge. I'm sure many people don't understand the meaning of "releases" and "current build".

The website is this way because it's actually useful for people who understand it. To simplify things, it would basically have to be dumbed down, removing or hiding functionality.

I suppose a simple and flashy website would get more people to try out Rockbox. However, I think most of those people wouldn't really want Rockbox. They would often probably prefer the original firmware, because it's simpler and flashier.

[saratoga]

Right on the first page is a good example:  Releases and Current Build. 
It should be Download and Models. 
Do you people not even speak English?  Current Build refers to a version of a program.  Not the version of the hardware it will be installed on.

I think this is unfair.  We're a project devoted to modding firmware.  This is a highly technical process that requires a fairly technical user.  If you're not familiar with common software terms like "release", "build" or "port", then you should probably not be using our software.  Inexperienced users toying with software they do not understand can (and have) ruined perfectly good MP3 players. 

While of course we like to make our software as widely available as possible, there is a minimum level of technical ability required to mod a hardware device.  If you fall below it, just stick to the retail firmware on your device.  Its safer, and in many cases good enough for the "average user" you mentioned.

That said, I'm still hoping someone takes interest in updating our website to be more like similar open source projects (e.g. XBMC's site).

 
The Sansa Firmware is just a nightmare.  I've tried and tried and cannot get it to even load properly with the Fuze V2 or Clip V2. Would it be too much to ask to supply a URL to the exact link for it?

We provide a link to the sandisk download site, which is probably the best option. 

 
    By the way the Clip is now bricked.  Thanks.  NOTHING turns that little beast on anymore. 

Assuming its a ClipV2, that happens to some of them. 
 

 
If a simple word adequately describes something - use it.  The stupidest thing in the world is to change something for no reason.  Especially in this busy society where people don't have time to learn the latest geek lingo describing the same function they used yesterday. 
Want Rockbox to be used by more people?  Now you know what to do.  Make it simple. 

Our manual is actually part of the open source project.  If you see improvements, please type them up and submit them on the patch tracker.  But again, it really just sounds like you're misunderstanding what modding firmware on a commercial device is about.  Its not an easy process anyone can do without research or effort (although I suppose its a compliment that our tools make it seem that way!).

[rockbox2u]

> I actually do see a point here. The website is designed for people who have some technical knowledge. I'm sure many people don't understand the meaning of "releases" and "current build".

All you have to do is use language that 99% of all other websites use:  Download and Models or Player Models.

> The website is this way because it's actually useful for people who understand it. To simplify things, it would basically have to be dumbed down, removing or hiding functionality.

Wrong.  It would need to smarted up - in the English department.  I'm not saying to remove any functionality.  I'm saying to take care in the vocabulary used so everybody can understand it - not people speaking geek-speak.  Every page reeks of poor English vocabulary choice.  You have many native English speakers involved.  If they passed elementary school English it shouldn't be beyond them.  Common sense is the key to clear communication.  Renaming things for no reason is just plain stupid and isolates you pointlessly.

> I suppose a simple and flashy website would get more people to try out Rockbox. However, I think most of those people wouldn't really want Rockbox. They would often probably prefer the original firmware, because it's simpler and flashier.

I didn't mention Flashy.  I mentioned clarity.  Its in the English words chosen - not in flashy animations.  I'm totally for form and function.  After that you can do with it what you want.  First get it clear.  Then you can play with it if you want.  I would expect most Rockbox users (of which I am one) appreciate clear form and function.  iTunes is a perfect example of form and function thrown out the window for the benefit of Apple's coffers. 

In this forum there is no Reply button - only Quote.  What if I want to post a quick reply without the previous post cluttering up the space?  BAD design. 
When I go back to http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,28342.0.html to see the message I'm replying to its reversing the order of the messages.  BAD design. 

Logic, form, function.  These should be paramount in web design.  Guess it isn't taught these days. 
Post Merge: July 05, 2011, 04:21:16 PM> It is called Rockbox Technical Forums, you know.

Technical does not mean illiterate.  One can have technical people with the feeblest grasp of the English language.

> And I don't see what is so difficult about loading RB onto a Sansa player....I've done it on five different ones. You asked

Would it be too much to ask to supply a URL to the exact link for it?

Well, the answer is listed here....due to legal reasons, they cannot directly give us the Sansa firmware here....yet I had no troubles finding it. The Fuze port (yes, I said port )  was quite easy to install and worked great.

Are you saying Rockbox.org cannot legally supply an URL going to the Sansa website?
If so, can you not link to a general page on the Sansa website then tell us what to look for there?

> And as far as your comment on English in high school....quite a few of the Rockbox developers are not from the USA or the UK...yet I understand them perfectly, and I am not a computer guru.

My point is if you want to communicate to the world, why limit yourself?  Renaming things to be different is pointless, stupid and aggravating to the reader. 

> If you've

wasted countless hours over the years here and often find the answers were "hidden in plain sight" because of poor choice of words in the descriptions. 

then maybe you should stick to factory firmware and leave Rockbox to the rest of us.

I'm using/have used Rockbox for years on Nanos and absolutely love it.  I really wanted to use a smaller device (Clip) with a microSD slot so I wouldn't have a 4gb limitation on storage I have with the Nano.  And I thought it would nice to have a larger screen somtimes for referencing text files when out, so I got a Fuze.  The Fuze won't seem to load and the Clip is totally bricked. 
Post Merge: July 05, 2011, 04:27:01 PM

Right on the first page is a good example:  Releases and Current Build. 
It should be Download and Models. 
Do you people not even speak English?  Current Build refers to a version of a program.  Not the version of the hardware it will be installed on.

I think this is unfair.  We're a project devoted to modding firmware.  This is a highly technical process that requires a fairly technical user.  If you're not familiar with common software terms like "release", "build" or "port", then you should probably not be using our software.  Inexperienced users toying with software they do not understand can (and have) ruined perfectly good MP3 players. 
-----------
Actually that is not true in the slightest.  By using the Rockbox Utility the whole process is done almost automatically.  Nothing technical about it that I remember. 
-----------
While of course we like to make our software as widely available as possible, there is a minimum level of technical ability required to mod a hardware device.  If you fall below it, just stick to the retail firmware on your device.  Its safer, and in many cases good enough for the "average user" you mentioned.
-----------
See above - the Rockbox Utility requires zero knowledge or special skill.
-----------
> By the way the Clip is now bricked.  Thanks.  NOTHING turns that little beast on anymore. 
Assuming its a ClipV2, that happens to some of them. 
 
It might be nice to supply an average brick rate.  You must have an idea.  10%, 30%? 

 
> If a simple word adequately describes something - use it.  The stupidest thing in the world is to change something for no reason.  Especially in this busy society where people don't have time to learn the latest geek lingo describing the same function they used yesterday. 
Want Rockbox to be used by more people?  Now you know what to do.  Make it simple. 

Our manual is actually part of the open source project.  If you see improvements, please type them up and submit them on the patch tracker.  But again, it really just sounds like you're misunderstanding what modding firmware on a commercial device is about.  Its not an easy process anyone can do without research or effort (although I suppose its a compliment that our tools make it seem that way!).
-----------
The Rockbox Utlitiy makes it mindlessly easy when it works.

[saratoga]

All you have to do is use language that 99% of all other websites use:  Download and Models or Player Models.

We actually do have "download".  Left side of your screen right now.

Wrong.  It would need to smarted up - in the English department.  I'm not saying to remove any functionality.  I'm saying to take care in the vocabulary used so everybody can understand it - not people speaking geek-speak. 

Could you give some examples that aren't incorrect?

In this forum there is no Reply button - only Quote.

Yes there is, its the icon labeled "reply".

  What if I want to post a quick reply without the previous post cluttering up the space?  BAD design. 

Well you're wrong about that, but we didn't write the forums software. It these people:

http://www.simplemachines.org/

But I agree, their UI could use improvements.

Anyway, the rest of your post is unreadable.  Could you edit it?

[rockbox2u]

As to "Releases" and "Current Build" they DO refer to a version of the software. It's interesting that you're assuming we're using them wrong, and referring to the hardware, rather than taking a few seconds to actually look at what's linked. "Releases" gets you the last release version of Rockbox. The "Current Build" link allows you to download the current SVN head version.
---------------
Ask 100 people on the street what a SVN head version is and 99 of them will stare at you blankly.  How about in English?  See what I mean?  Renaming stuff for no reason.  
---------------
If you're going to complain about us using confusing terms, at least complain about places where the terms are actually wrong or confusing. The fact that you got confused because you assumed we were referring to something we aren't is hardly our fault. Especially since what you claim we should be referring to actually is what we're referring to.

I live online and read hundreds of websites daily.  I'm quite familiar with the correct terms that should be used when downloading programs as I do it almost daily.  

Check out another example of incoherent English used:
http://www.rockbox.org/download/
Download Installer
and below that is:
Download and run the Rockbox Utility.

Huh?  What's the difference?  Do I need both?  Which one is used for what?  
See how unclear this is?  

Below that is more English nebulousity.
If you truly want to, you can still do the install manually old releases archive.
(That doesn't even make any sense if you know English.)
It should be:
If you truly want to, you can still do the install manually.   Hyperlinked: Old releases archive.

These may seem like trivial things when you're used to a website's navigation requirements but for a new user it just its just an aggravating irritation browsing such a quagmire of poor English choices.

[saratoga]

^^^ You should probably hit the preview button before posting.  You're messing up your posts.

[rockbox2u]

On this page it would be prudent to have the reply posted right below the post its replying to.  You can see how jumbled this is now.  BAD design. 
I've been spoiled with the simplicity and logic of Usenet newsgroups I guess.  Since they are gradually becoming extinct, forums are taking their place.  When they are designed logically, things are fine.  This one needs a lot of work. 
The reason I'm expending so much time on my replies is that the Rockbox system, when working, is utterly a dream to use.  I've told many people about it but few use it - probably because of this website's design.  When I show people how streamlined it is and how all your folder structure is retained when copying from Windows Explorer - they are impressed.  So its worth it to sacrifice a little pride and realize that English WAS an important subject in school and show it some respect.  Your audience will dramatically enlarge and worldwide appreciation will ensue.  Not to mention the satisfaction of sticking it to an utterly selfserving corporation like Apple which the general public, in all their ignorance, just fuels blindly because of their laziness in learning something more functional. 
Post Merge: July 05, 2011, 04:44:08 PM

^^^ You should probably hit the preview button before posting.  You're messing up your posts.

It wouldn't be the fault of the web page designer of course.
I hit the Preview button and don't see this message.  More BAD design. It mentions Alt+P to preview.  Don't they realize that that has a function (brings up Preferences) in the Opera browser?  More BAD design. 

[saratoga]

On this page it would be prudent to have the reply posted right below the post its replying to.

There are forums that do this, but in practice its pretty terrible.  That said, we didn't write the forums software, so you'll need to complain to the people I linked above. 

  You can see how jumbled this is now.  BAD design. 

No the problem is that you're not formatting your posts correctly, which is causing them to be incomprehensible.  We use the standard BB text used on all forums, but if you've never used an internet forum before, there is documentation explaining how to use it.

The reason I'm expending so much time on my replies is that the Rockbox system, when working, is utterly a dream to use.  I've told many people about it but few use it - probably because of this website's design.

No lots of people use it, although probably because of our website design, but mostly due to it being useful software.

So its worth it to sacrifice a little pride and realize that English WAS an important subject in school and show it some respect. 

Could you give an example of an improvement thats actually correct?  As far as I can tell the actual problem here is that you're not too familiar with open source software, and not the kind of person who takes the time to read directions when hes confused. 

^^^ You should probably hit the preview button before posting.  You're messing up your posts.

It wouldn't be the fault of the web page designer of course.

No I think its really your fault, but you're welcome to complain to the forums people.  I think they'll likely disagree with you though.  BB text markup has been around for over a decade and is quite popular. 

I hit the Preview button and don't see this message.

Works for me.  File a bug report with the forums software.

[AlexP]

If you are just going to keep repeating the English is bad without giving any actual examples then this is a complete waste of time.  Either come back with some actual examples, or stop posting pointless rants with no actual content.

If you want people to actually read your posts, then sort out the formatting.  Everybody else seems to manage it.

[JdGordon]

Do you people not even speak English?

You must be american? Actually most of the developers don't speak English as their first language

Want Rockbox to be used by more people?  Now you know what to do.  Make it simple. 

Count the amount of thank-you threads in this forum compared to abuse threads, *if* more users was our goal (which it isnt) you'll see we are doing fine thank you very much.

[evilnick]

For someone who's quite adamant about the usage of English being incorrect here, you are giving the impression of being unable to carry out simple instructions such as pointing to any concrete places that could be improved language-wise.

I trust that you are now convinced that the Rockbox developers (nor 90+% of all projects on the internet) do not code the forum software themselves and use an off-the-shelf item of software.
I believe that you're merely frustrated with your own lack of knowledge and poor comprehension skills, and have decided to lay all the blame at the language choices being poor rather than admit any fault.

From your own post: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,27328.msg178381.html#msg178381

"Used the latest Rockbox Utility and it bricked my Sansa Clip v2.  Thanks.  Nothing get is on.  AC wall adapter, holding various buttons whild turning on/plugging in, etc.  Dead.  The battery is great yesterday so its not that.  And the fact that it happened while in the midst of the install.....Rockbox killed it.
I foolishly tried to install Rockbox on my Fuze V2.  Windows Explorer (XP 64bit) has now frozen.
Am I the only person experiencing this nightmare?"

Care to cast your eyes over the use of language that you yourself chose to use there and then compare to the use of language on the website to see how hypocritical you are being?

"Nothing get is on"
"AC wall adapter, holding various buttons whild turning on/pluggin in, etc."

And I really liked your use of 'nebulousity' in this very thread!!

We always welcome constructive criticism, but this is far from constructive.