Layout of this website could be clearer.

[SheepCake]

rockbox2u: thanks for the laugh.

1. if the goal here was to pander to morons, the site would be built in flash and be very simplistic(like itunes)

2. if you cant manage to rockbox a fuze/clip/clip+ then you probably shouldnt be using rockbox, i could walk my mother through the process over the phone, its really not that hard....

I have to date rockboxed 28 sandisk/sansa players for myself and others, never had a problem, very very easy infact, easier then firmware updates on some older players (command line based update tools FTL)

this forum is quite easy to use, and is layed out quite logically, it dosnt use the /. or daily tech style "reply to post" layout, nore do 98% of the forums on the net, most use this very same layout, you use the quote button to reply to a specific person or multi people.

this version of SMF is pretty old, and not really worth making a newer better theme for, once smf2 goes gold, maby the site will move to that allowing for a bit more "pretty" or "flashy" in the design.

And as somebody whos taken collage english and done quite well in it, I can assure you, this site is far better then most out there, the official content is "geeky" the project is made for geeks by geeks, if you cant deal with that, move along, I came here and had zero issue finding the info needed to rockbox my first player that supported it, since then, i have done 35 or more players for people, again, its not hard on most players.....sandisk players are SIMPLE.


i just showed the site to my mother, and despite being far from a geek(she still refers to windows and office as if they where the same thing) she was able to figure out the basics of what the front page says.....she would be a bit lost without some guidance but then, as i said shes not a geek at all, and I am....

get over yourself, either use rockbox and be happy you have it, or dont use rockbox and be glad you dont have to learn new words/terms and dont have to work on your reading comprehension, clearly you fail at basic english yourself......*snickers at evilnick's quotes*

[rockbox2u]

I should have proofread that post before posting.  Sorry about that.  It was a pretty good example of careless typing.  I was pretty pissed off as I had expended a lot of time acquiring the Clip on Ebay. 

As for the mess ensued when I posted I wonder if its the Opera browser?  I'm using the latest version on XP 64bit.  I just type and hit Post.  In other forums it looks just fine.  I do notice that sometimes it says posts are being merged.  Not sure why that occurs.  Did I ask for them to merge?  Why do software designers think they know what I want?  Its getting more and more common these days.  Thankfully the Rockbox software valiantly trumpets the opposite cause and gives freedom to the portable media user. 

It would be good if someone could clarify on this page
http://www.rockbox.org/download/
what the difference is between the Download Installer button and the Rockbox Utlitiy URL below it. 
And why would anyone want to use the Old Releases archive?  Because of problems with a newer model that may not be addressed yet? 

Now on to some examples of how we can improve things here:
http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WebHome
There are Functional Ports.  Huh?  What is Functional?  Is that a Beta?  Is that finished?  What software company says our product is a functional port?  Then there are New Ports.  Huh?  Is this more Beta or experimental? 

The information here is easy to grasp.  Its just that the vocabulary used is blocking a lot of people from using it. 
It says: "Samsa" is a pet name sometimes applied to the AMS Sansas. Is Samsa supposed to be Sansa?

Under Port Status:
AMSv2 issues (Fuzev2, Clipv2, Clip+):
Does anybody know that this means?  "Until its ready, use the OF's USB by booting the OF before connecting the USB cable."  What's an OF?  I'm guessing it means the media player but couldn't they just say that? 
Post Merge: July 05, 2011, 11:37:13 PMDon't know if this matters but I thought it best to change the title of this thread.  Abysmal sounds pretty drastic and cryptic.  "Clearer" seems far more accurate.  Ironic that the point of my thread was English clarity and I was careless on choosing the title of the thread itself! 

As I think about my software experiences over the years its pretty obvious that open source software has usually given the best user experience, probably because they are listening to the user far more and not worried about the bottom line.  Interesting how some of the richest people in the world attained their wealth through software sales and yet that software is often the most frustrating to use as they are often detached from the users somewhat.  The world is not fair.  Not at all. 

[saratoga]

It would be good if someone could clarify on this page
http://www.rockbox.org/download/
what the difference is between the Download Installer button and the Rockbox Utlitiy URL below it.  

They both go to the same page.

And why would anyone want to use the Old Releases archive?

Trouble shooting.  Or maybe they prefer some older build.

http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WebHome
There are Functional Ports.  Huh?  What is Functional?  Is that a Beta?  Is that finished?  What software company says our product is a functional port?  Then there are New Ports.  Huh?  Is this more Beta or experimental?  

We don't have "beta" anything, and we're not a software company.  Those headings just reflect how whoever wrote the wiki page wanted to group the ports.  If you want to change it, go for it.  

The information here is easy to grasp.  Its just that the vocabulary used is blocking a lot of people from using it.

Thats an unmaintained wiki page that just links to other pages.  Its not blocking anyone from anything.

It says: "Samsa" is a pet name sometimes applied to the AMS Sansas. Is Samsa supposed to be Sansa?

Yes, as noted by the text you quoted.  

Does anybody know that this means?  "Until its ready, use the OF's USB by booting the OF before connecting the USB cable."  What's an OF?  I'm guessing it means the media player but couldn't they just say that?  

From that page:

"An original firmware (OF)"

Anyway, please stop quoting things from the wiki here.  Its a wiki.  If you see a problem, just edit it yourself.

[Misspell]

rockbox2u, just alittle food for thought here from my own personal experiences.
In the past i wrote a few programs under VB6 (Visual Basics 6) and currently have a project writin in PHP which has been public for 5 years or so that i still maintain and update. The php project has gain alittle popularity in certon circles and i too have a wiki for the documentation of it. There are two things which i have noticed in the time ive been coding and have had a web site supporting the software:

1) I did (and still do) take things for granted. When you write code, you know what it does, when you are looking at the "same" code for months and years, things become second nature and you do not put a second thought into it or how it it used. What you (the Dev) sees as being simple and a "no brainer" more then likely is not documented very well. Then someone comes along and questioned it and if they have the time and kindness and the Dev has a wiki (which seam to be more common now a days), that person will write up alittle info about it. That's one of the main idea behind a wiki. That person can be a 15 year old American or a 30 year old Russian with broken english, eather way, no matter what, the little info they have provided is better then nothing. And a chain reaction happens.
Now, im not say this holds true for Rockbox or its maintainers, nor am i speaking for them... But the Rockbox software is not something that Grandma is gonna search google for, it servers a certain niche... and its not the "every day person". So for a person looking to install Rockbox, they should have the insight in knowing that they will be doing alittle research and also have alittle common sense along with beging able to think, not just follow directions/information.

2) I dont know how many times people have posted in my forum asking for a change to a current option or to add a completely new option. (side note, i code for fun (its PHP so you can get much more opensource then that ) and to try and make other people happy so normaly "that change" happens or that new feature is added; as an option ( if i dont think its fitting for everyone) or core code). But if i do not get it done in XX amount of time or that bug fix does not come out 20mins after they post it,  some people will try and nit-pick anything they can that has something to do me or my site. Kind of like a little kid not getting what they want.

Ive had RockBox installed for as long as ive been a member here. There have been a few times while doing research here that i had to do more research to understand the documentation here. To me it just goes with the territory of installing a 'Mod', but for myself (and it seams like many others) this is something we understood before hand. Its not like Rockbox is some kind of "off-the-shelf" software.

To me; as long as there is a forum, mailing-list or what ever, id much rather see the Dev's working on code and answering questions directly then writing their ABC's.




_

[soap]

You people continually use vocabulary totally unnecessarily foreign to the average user.  Are you trying to appear superior?  What in the world is "porting"?  

Horribly offensive start to a discussion.  One could hardly design a kick-off more likely to offend, provoke defensiveness, and kill actual discussion.

"I feel that the vocabulary used on the Rockbox website is overly technical."  is a much more polite way to say the same thing and actually confers an interest in dialogue, rather than the start to a series of insults.

 

By the way the Clip is now bricked.  Thanks.  NOTHING turns that little beast on anymore.  On my Nano it works so perfectly.  Rockbox, once on your player is a dream to work with.  I'd just love to get the Sansa Fuze with its larger color screen and micro SD slot to work with Rockbox.  It seems impossible thanks to people that can't formulate the more simplistic instructions for the public.  
Guess English in high school isn't important to people these days.  

More blaming and more insults.  Do you want answers or venom?

Next time the insults outweigh the questions or comments I'll delete the post.

[rockbox2u]

To Soap - duly noted.  My point was to initiate change and I was way too harsh.  I should have suggested something the first time I came here of course which was about 2 years ago but I was lucky to get my Nano working so easily and didn't have the problems with the Sansa til recently.  
Anyway, that's why I wanted to change the title of the post.  It sure didn't seem fair.  

To Misspell - a very well explained response.  This documents the difficulty of design with most anything complex.  The designer assumes things after a while that may not occur in the new client.  Its hard to step back and get another look from the client's perspective, but its crucial to see the forest and not just the trees.  I've experienced the same thing with stuff I've designed (obviously not software!).  I assume the person I'm showing it to will just "see things" like I do.  But of course they don't.  How could they?  I've been immersed in the properties of that design for a while, turning problems over for solutions over and over - and they haven't.  

A designer wants their design experienced by many as they feel its better and solves problems not addressed in other designs.  How to get people to try that design?  That's the challenge.  The best design is useful "right out of the box" - no owner's manual necessary for simple operation.  And yet available options are there for the more demanding user as their needs enlarge in the future.
------------------
http://www.rockbox.org/download/
If both "Download Installer" and "Download and run the Rockbox Utility" go to the same page, why have both the links there?  

I'm currently using Win7 64bit and XP 64bit.  I often have problems with some drivers or software with XP 64bit.  If there are any issues with that OS it would be good to tell people that.  I didn't notice any 64bit info on that page for Windows.  

Under Features: It would be best not to use rbutil as there is no need to conserve either text space or the bandwith a few more letters use.  Clarity would be better served if Rockbox Utility was spelled out.

Under Base: Most people will not understand what the difference is between Bootloader installation and Rockbox installation.  I'm guessing one is for your player and one is for your computer.  How about Player installation and Computer Installation or something that tells everyone exactly what they do?

Under Extras: It would be clearer if Fontpack was just Fonts.  

Under Download: Putting in the minimum versions and 32/64bit info would be good. You've got the width available.  

http://download.rockbox.org/rbutil/
On this page it looks like there are no Win 64bit versions.  Could someone please confirm that?  Perhaps that was my problem. 

http://download.rockbox.org/rbutil/win32/
On this page it would be good to sort by date with the newest at the top.  Also if you put a few spaces between the columns the text wouldn't run into itself.  (I'm using a large font but when I adjust the zoom smaller the layout is retained.)
Is there a difference between rbutilqt and RockboxUtility?  I'm guessing no but it would be good to title all the same.  

http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WebHome
It would be great to link to the appropriate spot here from the models listed here:
http://build.rockbox.org/

In fact, if one had the energy, it would be cool to be able to click the model of your player then see all the possible programs and documents for it in one spot.  You could start with the most popular players and gradually add the rest later.  

Bricking:  A couple people mentioned a very low brick rate for the Sandisk models which is encouraging for me.  But if there are models that have a significant brick rate that would be great to mention too.  When you lose your player its really disheartening.  Googling can be unfair as only people that have problems will post so it paints Rockbox in a much more negative light than it deserves.  

I'd like to thank the responders for their patience and hope this results in an easier to understand website for all.  A lot more people should try this superbly designed media player operating system.  

I wonder if anybody has thought of developing a Rockbox version for the first Kindle Ereader?  Its the only Kindle to have a microSD slot.  I haven't used that one but I did play with a Kindle DX and have to say the OS on that thing is awful.  I bet some of you here could improve upon it vastly.  The first order of business would be to be able to have a Windows Explorer type, 2 column navigation system to find your stuff.  And to be able to copy and paste folders and have their contents intact when viewed on the portable device.  It can hold thousands of books but finding them is just a pain.  Imagine an ereader with speech recognition so that device allows you to input data to yourself and export data by voice (the easiest way) for later storage and collaboration.  Ipads have speech recognition apps but the glare of the screen discourages long term reading.  They've developed a laptop screen where the backlight can be turned off thereby eliminating glare though obviously you need light to read by.  We should see that mainstream in a year or 2.  Next will be a large screen for your home computer where the backlight can be turned off for the best reading experience possible. 

[Llorean]

I can't go into it right now due to time constraints, but it looks like you haven't read the manual at all, among other things. You're also assuming that info that doesn't need to be there (Win64 info) should be there. There aren't known issues with Windows 64-bit edition so there's no reason to single it out at this time.

There are a few valid things in there, but it looks like a lot of guessing and stuff like "I don't know these techincal terms so I'm just going to guess what they mean" (and consequently get it wrong, both bootloader and the main build go on the player, something explained in the manual).

Rockbox is something that shouldn't be installed without reading the manual, but most of these terms can also be looked up. Simplifying them to things that are incorrect just because you don't want to look them up isn't a useful solution, as incorrect terms will do more harm than asking people to spend a few seconds reading.

[selectortone]

.......Want Rockbox to be used by more people?  Now you know what to do.  Make it simple.  

I think you're missing the point - this is a site where a bunch of developers got together to develop alternative firmwares for their mp3 players and share those developments with each other. Sharing it among the general populace was not their intent at all.

That they are prepared to do that - allow semi computer-literate guys like me to use it and even offer help when I screw up - is something I'm very grateful for.

If it was a commercial product I paid money for I'd feel qualified to bitch about it. As it is, I'll take the extras it offers me over equivalent commercial offerings - like crossfeed, gapless playback, amazing EQ, quick menus, easy playlists, ultra-configurability, and everything else I get *FOR FREE* - and be very thankful.

[gbl08ma]

.......Want Rockbox to be used by more people?  Now you know what to do.  Make it simple. 

You are assuming Rockbox developers (or the Rockbox software) want to be famous and get used by more people. This is not the case. Not every single app needs (or should) be used by a crowd of people to be good or successful. (look at Linux, it has less virus because less people use it)

[todd94590]

never had issue with webpage, installation, or anything else here.  just sayin'.

only request would be the 'extras' -- I never know what, if anything, is/has been updated

[B7k]

I think this site is good and their is no need for a website change evreything is easy to find and very easy to use.