Streamline playlist handling

[bluebrother]

When I download these .m3u files into the folder on my player, they are not detected in any way when the database is initialized.

That's because the database does NOT handle playlists at all. The database basically gives you some searches of the files present based on their metadata to select from. How would a playlist fit into that?

So I have to manually navigate on the player itself (using the tiny buttons & screen) to the folder where they are (which has thousands of files & folders in it), find the first .m3u list, then load ("play") the list so that it is now loaded into the dynamic playlist memory.

Save them all in the same folder (like the root of the SD card) using relative paths. Winamp should be able to do that. Then you only need to navigate to a single folder.

[jim234567]

When I download these .m3u files into the folder on my player, they are not detected in any way when the database is initialized.

That's because the database does NOT handle playlists at all. The database basically gives you some searches of the files present based on their metadata to select from. How would a playlist fit into that?

So I have to manually navigate on the player itself (using the tiny buttons & screen) to the folder where they are (which has thousands of files & folders in it), find the first .m3u list, then load ("play") the list so that it is now loaded into the dynamic playlist memory.

Save them all in the same folder (like the root of the SD card) using relative paths. Winamp should be able to do that. Then you only need to navigate to a single folder.

You don't think Rockbox's database should be able to detect them exactly like how the Sansa firmware (and probably most others) does? Do you not think it should be easy for users to get to their playlists in RB?? Why even have "Playlists" as an option on RB's main menu at all then?  

Like Chronon just said, saving them to the SD's root or anywhere else does nothing to generate "/microSD1/" in the filepaths in the list in order to have a playlist work from the Playlist menu (you cannot even use < or > for a folder name in Windows anyway, so you couldn't even create a folder named that on your computer to trick Winamp into creating such a path).

You don't seem to have much concern for this issue at all... Why is that?

[bluebrother]

You don't think Rockbox's database should be able to detect them exactly like how the Sansa firmware (and probably most others) does? Do you not think it should be easy for users to get to their playlists in RB?? Why even have "Playlists" as an option on RB's main menu at all then? 

Please don't mix up things here. I haven't said if the database should or shouldn't do anything with playlists. I simply stated the current state. And as such it doesn't handle playlists. Also, please make the concept for picking files clear to yourself:

• Use the file browser. In this case a dynamic playlist is generated for you on the fly. No need for any database thing: it's just a file browser like Windows Explorer.
• Use some kind of database. A database for media files usually (as the Rockbox one does) indexes the media files based on metadata. You can then group by those metadata and search for specific entries. If you start playback from the database a dynamic playlist is generated based on the search.

Where do you put playlists in for this? A playlist has no metadata so it cannot be indexed for the database. That's simply a fact. So you end up with using a file browser to select the playlist file you want to use, and that's exactly what Rockbox does. If there really is a sensible way to "index" a playlist file please explain it to me.

So this ends up with two options left: either use the file browser that's already there. No additional code that can have bugs. Or use a file browser that's restricted to a specific folder. That's exactly what the "Playlist Catalog" does, and this is also used as shortcut when saving playlists via the Playlist Catalog. You don't need to use that, and putting some arbitrary limitation to a specific folder here would be simply nonsense.

Like Chronon just said, saving them to the SD's root or anywhere else does nothing to generate "/microSD1/" in the filepaths in the list in order to have a playlist work from the Playlist menu (you cannot even use < or > for a folder name in Windows anyway, so you couldn't even create a folder named that on your computer to trick Winamp into creating such a path).

Rockbox happily accepts playlists with relative paths. If you store the playlist in the root folder of the SD card, and the playlist entries are relative to that (or even absolute based on the drive letter Windows assigns to the SD card) it should work without any need for adjustments. I haven't tried the absolute part variant but relative paths definitely work. I used them in the past.

You don't seem to have much concern for this issue at all... Why is that?

Apart from you putting some judgement in my post that isn't there: am I supposed to have concern about that issue? Am I needed to? And is that of relevance?

[saratoga]

You don't think Rockbox's database should be able to detect them exactly like how the Sansa firmware (and probably most others) does?

I don't know what the Sandisk firmware does, but I agree that its a bad idea to have playlists show up in the database.  That really wouldn't make very much sense at all since the purpose of the database is to generate new playlists from data stored in it.  Having it store existing playlists would be fairly pointless.

Like Chronon just said, saving them to the SD's root or anywhere else does nothing to generate "/microSD1/"

If they're on the SD card they don't need that.

[jim234567]

Well, I see you guys are pretty adamant about this, as all you continue to  keep suggesting are workarounds for a deficiency in Rockbox's handling of playlists (at least Chronon seemed to finally catch on what the issue is)

But since you asked...

Where do you put playlists in for this? A playlist has no metadata so it cannot be indexed for the database. That's simply a fact. So you end up with using a file browser to select the playlist file you want to use, and that's exactly what Rockbox does. If there really is a sensible way to "index" a playlist file please explain it to me.

I'm only suggesting it handle it like other players do.
When it's scanning your files ("Refreshing", to use Sansa's word for it), it automatically takes any playlist file it finds, (I assume scans it and generates whatever code it needs for it internally) and then shows it under a heading called "Playlists" on it's menu where it can easily be found by the user.

With Rockbox, I have to go digging amongst thousands of files & folders to find each of my lists that are scattered about them, then go through this arduous re-saving procedure I already explained earlier to get the list to show itself under Playlists.

What it could simply do is upon finding a playlist file, it can scan it, then simply create a new file for itself the same name as the list scanned, and drop it in the Playlist folder automatically. Very simple. Then when the user opens Playlists on the main menu, he/she would see it already there, all he has to do is select it, and it will load and play.

I'm lost as to why understanding of such a basic function is so elusive here. It has nothing at all to do with the player's dynamic playlist thing, I'm talking about separate lists the user has created himself.


If no one on the RB team wishes to accommodate user's playlists, then I guess I have to join the ranks of all the others here who wish to customize their menus to get rid of useless clutter such as this "Playlists" thing, as it serves absolutely no purpose being on the menu whatsoever if I'm supposed to do it like you keep telling me to do and launch the playlist from my SD card. But from my searches of the forum, you guys also seem adamant about not wanting anyone to make the menu easier for them to use either. So I guess that one's apparently out as well.

[nls]

Well, I see you guys are pretty adamant about this, as all you continue to  keep suggesting are workarounds for a deficiency in Rockbox's handling of playlists (at least Chronon seemed to finally catch on what the issue is)

We have suggested different approaches to solving your problem so that you don't have to write a patch for rockbox that does something at least some devs don't think fits well into our database scheme. I understand perfectly fine what you want to do but you don't seem to want to hear of alternate approaches to solve this so happy coding i guess.

[Chronon]

jim234567, I do agree that some method of converting playlists containing relative paths into playlists containing absolute paths would be useful.  However, I didn't ever suggest that playlists should be indexed in the database.  If there is a way to convert the playlists to use absolute paths then you are free to move the playlists to any convenient location (like the directory you choose as the playlist catalog).  It seems like this is the change that would be of primary benefit.

The topics in this forum are purely to discuss ideas for rockbox and how to implement them.  The only way that a topic in this forum translates into a change happening in Rockbox is if somebody steps up and decides to do the work to actually implement it.  So, while you might have a list of changes you wish to see, I think it's a good idea to decouple different ideas from each other as much as possible to allow them to be implemented separately if somebody decides that one of them is worth their time and effort.

[jim234567]

We have suggested different approaches to solving your problem so that you don't have to write a patch for rockbox that does something at least some devs don't think fits well into our database scheme. I understand perfectly fine what you want to do but you don't seem to want to hear of alternate approaches to solve this so happy coding i guess.

Lol.
The approaches mentioned here are what I said I'm already doing. Kinda crazy to have a "Playlist Catalog" on the menu if it can't be used in any practical sense where you have to launch your playlists from elsewhere...
And yes, I would love to help with the development of it if I could, but unfortunately I lack the technical knowledge of it (simply trying to figure out a dang screen theme was already hard enough for me).
I figured this one would've been an easy suggestion (thinking it even could've just been an oversight), but dang was I sure proven wrong.

jim234567, I do agree that some method of converting playlists containing relative paths into playlists containing absolute paths would be useful.  However, I didn't ever suggest that playlists should be indexed in the database.  If there is a way to convert the playlists to use absolute paths then you are free to move the playlists to any convenient location (like the directory you choose as the playlist catalog).  It seems like this is the change that would be of primary benefit.

Chronon, I did not mean to suggest you had said it should go in the Database itself or anywhere else, I was simply pointing out that you seemed to understand where I was coming from. Seems no one else here does though so I guess I'll just have to leave it at that.



Appreciate your time guys. I'll butt out of here

[bluebrother]

I'm only suggesting it handle it like other players do.

In Rockbox generally we don't care much about how other players or especially the original firmware does things. It's this since years, so don't expect a change here.

When it's scanning your files ("Refreshing", to use Sansa's word for it), it automatically takes any playlist file it finds, (I assume scans it and generates whatever code it needs for it internally) and then shows it under a heading called "Playlists" on it's menu where it can easily be found by the user.

Rockbox does *not* scan the files. The Database indexes them, and as I explained earlier, there's no sensible way to put playlists into the Database.

With Rockbox, I have to go digging amongst thousands of files & folders to find each of my lists that are scattered about them, then go through this arduous re-saving procedure I already explained earlier to get the list to show itself under Playlists.

To put it in your words, you seem to be pretty adamant to accept that there are ways to achieve what you want. There's no need to resave all playlists, and putting all playlists on the player into a single folder is for sure a bad idea for all those people that intentionally split them across folders. So you're basically saying to make things more like the way you prefer it we should make it worse for all people that have a different approach.

While I can see that there are possibilities to improve things the suggestions you made are simply to short sighted and therefore not acceptable.

[[Saint]]

Kinda crazy to have a "Playlist Catalog" on the menu if it can't be used in any practical sense where you have to launch your playlists from elsewhere...

I can't say that I'm not confused about this...The playlist catalogue is perfectly functional and does exactly what it should do. In a previous post I already explained how to move the location of the playlist catalogue with a config file entry.
In my case I make it so that the root of the device is the playlist catalogue, so that playlists saved to the root of the device "just work" and appear in the playlist catalogue as one would expect them to without any further manual intervention.


[St.]

[Chronon]

Chronon, I did not mean to suggest you had said it should go in the Database itself or anywhere else, I was simply pointing out that you seemed to understand where I was coming from. Seems no one else here does though so I guess I'll just have to leave it at that.

I know.  I just wanted to clarify what I was saying. 

Don't be put off by the criticism.  Every feature that gets added to Rockbox rightly gets met with a healthy dose of criticism.  Especially for features to be added to the core binary it must be shown that the feature provides additional functionality and benefits that outweigh the costs of added binary size. 

To put it in your words, you seem to be pretty adamant to accept that there are ways to achieve what you want. There's no need to resave all playlists, and putting all playlists on the player into a single folder is for sure a bad idea for all those people that intentionally split them across folders. So you're basically saying to make things more like the way you prefer it we should make it worse for all people that have a different approach.

While I can see that there are possibilities to improve things the suggestions you made are simply to short sighted and therefore not acceptable.

So, how about a plugin that processes playlists containing relative paths and saves a copy with absolute paths in the playlist catalog?  This makes it happen for those who opt-in only. 

[sideral]

Where do you put playlists in for this? A playlist has no metadata so it cannot be indexed for the database. That's simply a fact. So you end up with using a file browser to select the playlist file you want to use, and that's exactly what Rockbox does. If there really is a sensible way to "index" a playlist file please explain it to me.

I'm only suggesting it handle it like other players do.
When it's scanning your files ("Refreshing", to use Sansa's word for it), it automatically takes any playlist file it finds, (I assume scans it and generates whatever code it needs for it internally) and then shows it under a heading called "Playlists" on it's menu where it can easily be found by the user.

As others have explained, a playlist scan would be a poor fit for the database as it is designed today; a file-based solution is much simpler and more robust.  That said, I'm certainly open to considering new metadata types for the database, including playlists and cuesheets.

My view differs from bluebrother's in that I regard playlists as plain metadata.  A playlist is similar to an album in that it references an ordered collection of tracks.  If the database could store N:M relations (which it currently cannot), it would be trivial to add a query to the Database menu that listed all playlists, and then the tracks in a playlist.

What it could simply do is upon finding a playlist file, it can scan it, then simply create a new file for itself the same name as the list scanned, and drop it in the Playlist folder automatically. Very simple. Then when the user opens Playlists on the main menu, he/she would see it already there, all he has to do is select it, and it will load and play.

I agree this would be simple, non-database solution to your problem. This scan could be achieved by a simple plugin or perhaps even a Lua script.  Rockbox has a plugin-autorun mechanism (disabled by default) that could be used to run this automatically after each boot (not sure though whether it can pass a script name to the Lua plugin).