Fuze V1 USB support broken under Rockbox 3.7 / 3.7.1

[Roj]

I own two Fuze V1s, one 8Gb and one 4Gb and both running Rockbox 3.7.1.  When copying files to either of them, the USB connection randomly drops and the player goes black.  It requires a reboot into the original Sansa Firmware (using the reset procedure) and then another reboot back into Rockbox to restore Rockbox functionality.  That may or may not allow the subsequent successful transfer of files - I've seen situations where multiple reboots resulted in similar Fuze lockups.  I've also seen situations where the files transferred flawlessly.  Both Rockbox 3.7 and 3.7.1 produce the problem.

I've replicated this problem on three different machines with three different chipsets (and thus three different USB implementations).  All were running Windows 7 x64. IMNSHO the USB support for the Fuze V1 cannot be considered stable until this issue is resolved.

Now, about your registration process:

IT STINKS.

I'm visually impaired and it took me twenty minutes to get through your verification process with that stupid hieroglyphic you have to type.  The audio prompt is fuzzy and indistinct and utterly useless.  My daughter who has no visual issues finally had to register for me and even she tried three times before successfully registering.  Whoever implemented that abortion needs their head examined and quite frankly, I don't give a damn if you ban be for saying this.  If you worked for my company and put this in place on a website without consideration for individuals with visual issues, you'd be rightfully fired immediately.

There - go ahead and ban me now.  I've said my piece and hopefully some attention will be paid to it and the issue resolved.

[Chronon]

Is this just a rant or are you interested in trying to figure out what's causing the problem?

[Roj]

Both.

The registration issue is a disaster and reflects poorly on the board.  Regarding the Fuze issues, given that I own two of them both of which are Rockboxed, it should be quite obvious that I'm interested in a solution.  I've given enough information to be able to replicate the problem which is generally the first step in resolution.  It should be noted also that file transfer using the original firmware works flawlessly, so it's not the Fuze hardware.  Also, when the player goes black, Windows can no longer find the player - as far as the OS is concerned, it appears to be detached.

[saratoga]

There - go ahead and ban me now.  I've said my piece and hopefully some attention will be paid to it and the issue resolved.

You don't have to ask to be banned, you can just stop posting if you're unhappy with how posting is working out for you. 

[Roj]

I wasn't asking.

I'm not unhappy with how posting is working out for me - frankly, if a solution to the technical problem I iterated is tendered then it has worked out and I'm good.

That being said (segue!), what about the USB issue which is what prompted me to join so I could post about it?

No one's ponied up on that one yet.

Since you're a dev, here's a real question:

I notice that VrtualBox has issues getting USB to work under Windows that Linux does not have.  Could it be that Windows' USB implementation perhaps bends the rules a bit?  i say this because apart from what I see with VirtualBox, the USB implementation for the other Fuze (V2) and the Clip products works fine under Linux but is somehow limited to USB 1.1 connection speeds under Windows (I'm referring to the patch described on the main Rockbox site).  Coincidence?

[BigPapi]

Are you using different cables for all three players?

[Roj]

Are you using different cables for all three players?

Yessir!

[saratoga]

Could it be that Windows' USB implementation perhaps bends the rules a bit?  i say this because apart from what I see with VirtualBox, the USB implementation for the other Fuze (V2) and the Clip products works fine under Linux but is somehow limited to USB 1.1 connection speeds under Windows (I'm referring to the patch described on the main Rockbox site).  Coincidence?

Windows USB does bend the rules.  You're welcome to see if the Linux driver works better on your system, but I am able to connect the AMSv1 devices normally under Windows 7 x64, so whatever the issue is its not entirely Windows related. 

Additionally you can try the current build.  IIRC it has a few minor USB improvements, but probably nothing thats going to help you here. 

If neither of those help, you'll need to use the OF USB until someone improves the USB driver. 

[Roj]

Could it be that Windows' USB implementation perhaps bends the rules a bit?  i say this because apart from what I see with VirtualBox, the USB implementation for the other Fuze (V2) and the Clip products works fine under Linux but is somehow limited to USB 1.1 connection speeds under Windows (I'm referring to the patch described on the main Rockbox site).  Coincidence?

Windows USB does bend the rules.  You're welcome to see if the Linux driver works better on your system, but I am able to connect the AMSv1 devices normally under Windows 7 x64, so whatever the issue is its not entirely Windows related. 

Additionally you can try the current build.  IIRC it has a few minor USB improvements, but probably nothing thats going to help you here. 

If neither of those help, you'll need to use the OF USB until someone improves the USB driver. 

Thanks for the suggestions - we'll see what happens.

This is the annoying thing: I can connect with no problem.  And file transfers do work - a lot of the time.  And then the odd time, they'll fail.  Rebooting Windows doesn't help - the Fuze can reconnect but will fail again.  And then again.  Or it won't.  it's the worst kind of issue: an inconsistent one.  And it's not limited to one Fuze or one cable..  The only thing that's common is the computer OS, specifically Windows 7 x64 Enterprise (which is the same as Ultimate).

We have an old saying in Jamaica: live in hope, you won't die in despair.  To that end, I purchased yet another Fuze (a V2) today to avail myself of the better battery life, despite the current lack of USB support (I hope it's coming soon and is more stable than the V1's).  Rockbox is just too damned useful to live without (if the folks working on the Cowon I7 port would get it finshed and stable with equivalent battery life, I'd be ecstatic beyond redemption).

[Llorean]

If you have complains about the forum registration, contact Simple Machines, the providers of the software. Seriously, it's free. It's open source. If you want to improve it you're welcome to, but if you just want to complain about something  being provided to you, for free mind you, then you aren't going to accomplish much. Especially if you simply attempt to use inflammatory language rather than trying to make a clear description of what points you had problems with, and what exactly the problems were.

[Roj]

"Free" and "open source" do NOT automatically equal "good".  Those terms are far too often used as a panacea and can quite easily mean "mediocre" and "substandard".  I was quite serious when I said that anyone using a registration process designed like that in the outfit I work for would find themselves out of work - and my employer is not a particularly small one (we're about 14,000 users across the planet).  It takes accomodation for individuals with visual and other disabilities very seriously indeed and the registration process for this site would fail hands down, especially since such accomodation is mandated by law here.

I'm actually rather laid back compared to those who work to ensure our sites are easily accessible by all - they're quite zealous about their mandate.

And they have every right to be.

From my own professional point of view as a security specialist, the best security does not get in the way of users to the point that even those without disabilities are hampered, never mind those with disabilities.

After all, you WANT people to join and post issues; that way your product improves.

YMMV.

PS.

I thought about this after I posted and I forgot to add the following:

One of the reasons I use Rockbox is the absolutely superb support for people who are visually impaired like myself.  The large font support and the voice commands are exceptional, especially in light of this being a non-commercial community supported project.  Cowon, my DAP vendor of choice (and arguably the Rolls Royce of DAPs), does not offer support of this calibre.  I simply cannot praise it highly enough in that department.

[[Saint]]

That's all very well and good, except:

1: - Rockbox is not a "product", it's created by the developers...for the developers and if the general public can get a kick out of it too then great.

2: - You didn't mention what you would change to make the experience better for you/others.

You established the fact that you think it is lacking, I get that, but without any feedback on how it is lacking exactly or what could be done to improve it, your criticisms really don't serve a lot of purpose except getting something you found annoying off your chest and venting your frustration.



[St.]

[AlexP]

We have to have some sort of captcha system for the registration.  We have a problem with spam, and we need to try and stop them somehow.  I find the words readable, but of course if they were perfectly clear then it would be trivial for spam bots to exploit them, and I can understand how it would be diffcult for people with poor eyesight.  There has to be some trade-off between how easy they are to read and how well they actually do their job of stopping spammers.  I agree that the audio part is useless, I just tried it and had no idea what it was saying, it didn't correspond at all to what I read.

That being said, I'm terribly sorry but we don't have the resources to implement our own system.  We aren't a company with paid employees, we are a group of individuals who do this in our spare time, and very generously offer up all our hard work to everyone else for free.  If you can find us a better system that fits in with the forum software, that makes it easier for genuine people to register yet still efficiently blocks spam bots, then please let us know and we will do our best to incorporate it.  If you are just going to rant and not try to help, then you are entitled to a full refund and to be ignored.

I do sometimes wonder about the mentality of people that just rant at a project such as Rockbox.  If you are paying a company for a service or product, then sure you have the right to expect a minimum level. However when people spend hundreds of thousands of hours of their own time on something for no remuneration, then offer it all up for free and do their best to offer support and to help those people that get everything for free, it is slightly galling when all people can do is rant and complain.  It doesn't make me want to continue giving up my free time.  If you had spent a lot of time on something that you then gave away, would you feel like giving up more time to help someone who turned up and said, "This is crap" or someone who said, "This is difficult to use, I've done some research and it seems like xxx might be a better option"?

Please think about this.

[Roj]

That's all very well and good, except:

1: - Rockbox is not a "product", it's created by the developers...for the developers and if the general public can get a kick out of it too then great.

2: - You didn't mention what you would change to make the experience better for you/others.

You established the fact that you think it is lacking, I get that, but without any feedback on how it is lacking exactly or what could be done to improve it, your criticisms really don't serve a lot of purpose except getting something you found annoying off your chest and venting your frustration.



[St.]

Since you asked:

1)  Everything created is a product, whether you choose to acknowledge that it is or not.  If you put effort into it, even if it is only for yourself, then it is - plain and simple.

2)  The site needs a method of registration verification that is not as Draconian for those who are visually impaired.  I have a set of $350 multimedia speakers and the audio verification was still extremely fuzzy and indistinct, thanks in no small part to the background noise put there for obfuscation.  Someone with a lesser set of speakers will find it all but impossible.  Clean up the audio verification so that it is more realistically achievable.  The visual aspect of registration is achieved by sampling books and morphing the letters together into words that are often nonsensical.  The resolution is jaggy and very difficult to discern for visually impaired users.  Make the letters smoother and more distinct (less morphed) and users will stand half a chance of being able to identify them.  Furthermore, the human brain is an awesome pattern recognition machine.  Tests have been done that indicate that with only the first and last letters discernible in a word, the human brain can "fill in the gaps".  Unfortunately, if the words are pure rubbish, this built-in talent is useless, further impairing the intent of the presentation.  I realize that the purpose of this method is to defeat bots.  However, it should not (and unfortunately does) defeat humans from using it as well.

That more specific for you?

[gevaerts]

The way I see it, we have two options:

• Run the forums the best we can, taking into account that all of this is volunteer work done by people who may also try to have a life
• Shut down the forums

I think the second option would meet all of your requirements. Is that what we should do then?