Rockbox Development > Feature Ideas
Discussion: Pros & Cons of a potential WPS Tag Feature Request
[Saint]:
--- Quote from: Llorean on December 06, 2009, 11:08:11 PM ---So trying to use accuracy as an argument for it doesn't work
--- End quote ---
I've tried to make the point *SO MANY TIMES* that I'm not arguing.....
Evidently that's all You're looking for, and no matter what I say I'm NEVER going to be able to pursuade You.
(as if I even have to anyway),
You seem to have this "what I say goes...." mentality that frankly, I just can't be bothered with anymore.
Thankyou for officially making a mountain out of a molehill.
Sincerely,
[St.]
Llorean:
--- Quote from: Llorean on December 06, 2009, 11:08:11 PM ---So trying to use accuracy as an argument for it doesn't work
--- End quote ---
An argument is, to quote the Oxford English Dictionary, "a set of reasons given in support of something." No offense, but there's no way to deny you're giving reasons to support this idea.
I think once again you're getting yourself worked up over assumed tone.
These are all valid objections to your suggestion, and whether you think so or not they're going to need to be discussed at some point. Why not attempt to actually address specific and individual points. For example, while it's mathematically impossible for percent volume to be more accurate while simultaneously having the same number of steps on every player, it's still possible you may have an actual problem of some sort it solves.
[Saint]:
Llorean,
Well, fact is that You don't see the "problem" I have as a problem and more of "something I should just deal with" will negate this post I'm sure.
My problem is this.
Wanting to display the volume as a percentile of the "Maximun Total Target DAP Volume" instead of a value that I (and probably others) see as completely arbitrary when compared to the proposed alternative.
How would this benefit Me?
Well, it's the whole effect I was trying to achieve, and as I'd said, My WPS *was* based around visual symmetry and the current code just doesn't allow for it to "look or perform" accurately, now this may not have bothered Me at all in the slightest if it wasn't one of the key features of My WPS, but it is/was so......
I realise that this is ENTIRELY about aesthetics....but this is a WPS customization forum after all.
I just wanted to know, was there a way to do this any better, I found out there wasn't.
Then,
I wanted to know, "is anyone else annoyed by the same thing I am? could We change this?"
Apparently not really, and We can't.
Fair enough, I had left it at that but I'm *CONTINUALLY* being asked to justify Myself which if You'll notice is something that I've never asked You to do Yourself in the best interests of BEING RESPECTFUL TO THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERING OPINIONS TO THAT OF YOUR OWN
And finally, I guess I just see it as being basic functionality.
What purpose does it really serve to display the battery in Volts?
Point is, You *CAN* if you want to.
Fact is I've personally NEVER seen an "off the shelf" DAP that *DOESN'T* display the volume in the mannor that I'm intending, and I "personally" have no need for viewing the volume in dB at all....so THAT is why I'd at least like the OPTION to be able to do so IF I chose to, but I now know that (for the moment at least) that it's just plain NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
And I can live with that, I'm slightly annoyed as I'm now scrapping about a fortnights worth of WPS building to start over again almost completely, and THAT is why I would of like another way for this to of been done, and THAT is why I've been insistent.
I'm not sure how many times I've apologised for causing a disturbance, *as it's NOT something I like to do at all.
I'm not sure how I could explain WHY I wanted this feature available to Me, or Why I would find it usefull any clearer and the fact that You disagree about the relevance of this feature means that We'll never see eye to eye, so the point of this continuing gets lesser and lesser by the minute.
I hope We can walk out of this without it letting it affect Our opinions of oneanother.
Having an opinion, and being opinionated are entirely different things and I hope You can recognise that.
Sincerely,
[St.]
EDIT:
*Cause a disturbance, not apologise.
Llorean:
This is the Feature Ideas forum. It was moved here, so no this isn't a "WPS Customization forum."
You proposed a change - it will be criticized. You may not realize this but a large portion of better audio equipment does display the volume as db (and many graphical equalizers do as well). The fact that you're used to cheap consumer electronics doesn't mean that we should waste space on a feature more or less redundant to existing functionality.
You were told a way to do it already with the existing tag. When told you decided it wasn't good enough because it wasn't, among other things, "accurate" or "the same on all players." Which, mathematically, the percentage will be worse.
Basically, you got reasons because you attempted to justify your point with points of your own that just don't hold up to basic math, and never really talked about the functionality.
Being respectful of other peoples opinion does not mean "staying silent about objections they have when they propose a change to software you're interested in." If your opinion only affects you, that's fine. If you propose making it affect me, I have as much right to object to it as you have to stating yours in the first place, and it should only be considered disrespectful if I make it personal. So far I've only stated objections to your opinion. You don't get to call "don't be disrespectful to me" as a way of defending a bad idea because you're unwilling to go into detail in defense of it.
If you think your ideas stand you don't need to keep responding to my objections. It's that simple. You read them, decide they're a bunch of nonsense, and leave it as self-evident to others that my objections are nonsense. But the fact of the matter is, it's mathematically impossible for percent volume to provide a more accurate volume meter than the current one without explicitly customizing it for every target, just as you would have to with this one. The only thing you could possibly gain, in terms of accuracy, is degrees of precision in the clipping range.
You haven't yet even explained why the accuracy is useful (what problem it solves) only "it looks good for my WPS since both sides use percentages."
As to the battery argument - percentages are useful in a battery. 50% remaining means "50% playing time left." Since playing time decreases with battery age and there's no good way to accurately calculate it, and it changes with use patterns, this is actually more useful than percent volume or voltage in a variety of ways. Of course, you're only addressing this from the aesthetics, and as you'll note I haven't once claimed your aesthetic reason is invalid at all. I've only stated that so far it's the only *valid* reason you've given, and I don't think it's enough.
Of course, if we're talking respecting other peoples' opinions, I find it rather shocking that I've granted that the one thing about it that is based on opinion so far (that it's aesthetic) while simply objecting to areas where you haven't fleshed out facts and details, and yet that's what you're getting upset about.
My recommendation would be to read what I say a bit slower, and maybe take a break if you find yourself getting worked up.
If you think it's only valid aesthetically then just say so. But if you start throwing other reasons like "accuracy" out there, you need to learn not to get upset when people start picking at them, especially if the math behind them really doesn't hold up. You're continually being asked to justify points that I object to, which is what you should expect in the forum specifically set aside for discussing the merits and flaws of proposed ideas. If you don't want a point objected to, don't state it in the first place.
And while the choice of decibels may have been against some users' preferences, it's not arbitrary. It isn't based solely on preference - when given a choice between percentages and decibel the clear choice if you're only going to present one scale is decibels. It offers a great deal of information simply unavailable in a percentage scale. So please, stop throwing that word around unless you plan to justify its use by showing how decibels are a less logical scale than percentage volume in terms of presenting useful information to the users.
[Saint]:
--- Quote from: Llorean on December 07, 2009, 12:26:19 AM ---Being respectful of other peoples opinion does not mean "staying silent about objections they have when they propose a change to software you're interested in." If your opinion only affects you, that's fine. If you propose making it affect me, I have as much right to object to it as you have to stating yours in the first place
--- End quote ---
That's the thing Llorean, I've NEVER talked about removing functionality.
Simply adding it for the users that wanted to disply the volume field in this manner "if they wanted to"
You deny it, but You're taking this FAR too personally....Yeah, You disagree, wow, we get the point already.
And wheteher or not dB or percentile ir arbitrary is entirely relevant to it's intended purpose.
If it was indeed a high end piece of audio equiptment...I might expect things to be different.
Fact is, most of the time RockBox will be installed on cheap, easily accesible DAP's primarily.
Most, if not all of these players will display the volume as a percentage of the Total DAP's volume, and not dB
In that case, I see RockBox as taking away from the user something which had been previously consistent to them, and that is where my argument of "basic usability" comes from.
I *believe* users should at least have the OPTION to display this information in the format that thay are MOST FAMILIAR WITH.
If that happens to be dB then so be it, but do you not agree that it would save a WHOLE lot of back and forth on both our parts if (like the batter display) there were more that one display value presented to the user?
As that is My major concern, perhaps I have not voiced this enough.
My proposed change would not remove ANY functionality from users like yourself that prefer it displayed in dB.
Sincerely,
[St.]
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