Discussion: Pros & Cons of a potential WPS Tag Feature Request

[[Saint]]

yes... I'm thinking a nice compromise is adding a conditional for how far over 0 the volume is which would please almost everyone..

Finally, someone gets it!!!!!....I stayed away from this forum for fear I was going to get into some form of argument with someone and say something I'd ultimately end up regretting.....(ie: beginning this thread in the first place, but I don't anymore now there's a small glimpse of compromise)

Given the levels of indescion surrounding this topic, and it's heated debate, it's obviously an area that could at least deserves a review....no?

I think focus has been lost on what I was originally trying to achieve, (which was NOT a huge bickering festival, rather an opportunity for Me to gauge whether or not I'm the ONLY one that has some "issues" with the way it works currently.)

I think I can safely say that I'm not, but the odds of finding a solution that suits all in "every percievable way" are apparently very slim.

One issue a lot of You seem to have is that of "hiding information from the user", which I don't necessarily agree with but can see the merits of....but I am also of the opinion that (on targets capable of >0dB at least) the current system "hides information" from the user also....

If I were to say make a volume conditional that represented a distinct state of change for all volume levels from mute to 0dB, then (depending on the player) there would be "information hidden" from the user as soon as they were to reach 0dB+, the hidden info being...."How far over this level am I?"

It's all very well and good to know when your player is clipping, but depending on replay gain, recorded line level, and a host of other sound variable features that RockBox offers.....the player in question may not even *BE* clipping or distorting in any way.....and the user would have no way of being able to visually discern "how much" over >0dB He/She is...


Making JDGordons suggestion about the best possible sollution to keeping both camps happy....no?

At least if His idea were implemented, people who want to display the players "maximum possible volume" can, and those happy with the current dB range as it is, are not affected adversly nor lose any functionality.


The problem is, not everyone that uses RockBox is going to have any, or even a limited idea, of the way dB works.....I didn't.
But everyone, every man woman and child can assertain an approximate level of volume based on a representative scale of 0 to 100%, I believe this is the reason that most every major manufacturer of DAP's has chosen to display the volume in this manner.


One other option would be to allow the user to specify a "User Defined Maximum Volume Level" that cannot be exceeded....like the iPods and probably a few other players can do....that way He/She would always know that they were displaying a volume range that they themselves have set, know to be within a safe range depending on their individual sound settings, and are familiar with.....

But that'd be yet *ANOTHER* feature idea I fear....



Give Us the choice at least, and let the end user make up His/Her own minds about how the volume is displayed. Code could easily be written that allowed the user to choose how they wanted this information to be presented to them.


Thankyou for staying objective Gordon, whilst remaining true to Your own beliefs, and for being able to compromise.

[yapper]

The best solution I seen so far with current code is the widecabbie theme by Jonas Häggqvist for the E200v1. This uses the standard cabbiev2 volume graphic, but during volume changes there is a larger version of the standard graphic displayed along with the numeric volume setting (in dB).

[Llorean]

Again, what useful information does "how far over 0db am I?" actually provide?

A percentage scale can only give you a loose approximation of what's going on anyway, and is only useful for giving the user a very rough "is it going to be loud or quiet when I put these headphones on."

What actual use does a changing display above 0db of information that is not actually measured in meaningful units actually give?

While "staying objective" you've neglected to give anything but "I'd like it" opinions, which are subjective by definition.

What information does a user not receive from the decibel scale currently presented to them that they would with a percentage scale and what can they accomplish with it that they can't now?

This isn't about "sticking to your beliefs" or "trying to make everyone happy." It's also about not overloading Rockbox with every idea every single person has - things need to be left out sometimes.

Is the current volume as presented in images making something hard to do? If so, what is this something, what exactly is hard to do, and can we discuss other ways to make this easier to do that don't involve creating an entirely redundant system for it?

The question of "information hidden" relates to which information actually provides meaning to a user. 1db through 6db don't provide specific meaning of much value. The fact that they're over 0db does give useful information (that it's above line level). The approximate graphical representation below 0db gives the user a rough idea of whether their earphones will be loud or soft. A mute image makes it clear there will be no sound at all. Whether clipping occurs after it or not, line level is a value that needs to be known by many users.

Your percentage scale on the other hand only provides the ability to easily give the user mute and a soft-loud scale. It hides line level and above line level from the user - thus it presents less total of the useful information.

What purpose does actual steps above 0db as visible images serve? What problem, specifically, do they solve?

[[Saint]]

I guess, ultimately it's an accuracy thing, it's for the fact that it's *WAY* easier (or would be) to assign an image based on increments of say 1-10%, 11-20%, 21-30% etc. (as with the battery for example, if one were to be completely anal about the accuracy of it, 100 seperate images & conditions could be assigned to display a seperate image every time the battery level rose/fell) than it is to display *ACCURATE* representations of an arbitrary value between 1-99% of the "safe, no clipping, volume levels".

I understand completely that every functionality of the %pv tag as it is now is completely fine the way it is....I never proposed a change to the way it works.
I can see the benefits of a seperate image for mute, line level, and for values above that...so lets put that to the side as it's not in dispute.

My problem comes in when wanting to display the volume level in a similar fashion to the way the battery level is displayed.

But there's currently no way to for Me to do that without displaying at least one image twice, actually I believe to make it look even remotely correct I needed to display 2 images twice:

%?pv<%xdCa|%xdCa|%xdCb|%xdCc|%xdCd|%xdCe|%xdCf|%xdCg|%xdCh|%xdCi|%xdCi|%xdCj>

Is what I found I needed to use to get it to *look* right....but it still isn't nearly as accurate as I'd like it to be.

The second problem comes in when I want to display the volume in TEXT as a percentage (again, entirely similarly to that of the battery), as the current WPS I'm working on is based around the aspect of visual symmetry, and having one value displayed as a percentile, and one in dB just looks......weird.
I'd tried to do it using conditionals:

%pv<0|1|2|3|4 etc.

but it's not possible to do this unless the percentile range is that of "mute to 0dB" and not "mute to Total DAP volume".....I mean, it could be done (via skipping a few increments, or displaying a few twice or something) but implementing it is basically a nightmare to do the way it is now, compared to how easy it could be.


Compare it to the battery for example

text:     %bl%%
Image: %?bl<-|%xda|%xdb|%xdc|%xdd|%xde|%xdf|%xdg|%xdh|%xdi|%xdj>

I don't need to tell any of you probably that that will display the battery level in a percentile and a seperate image will be displayed for each and every 10% increment of battery level.

Now,

If one wanted to do this for the volume however......

It becomes a total nightmare.
One *CAN* display the volume in text as a percentile, but the code will be a mile long, and You can only do this as far as 0dB, and would then be forced to display the same value for how ever many increments are past this point.
And that isn't a percentile, well it is, it's just not a percentile of the volume level, it's a percentile of a percentage of the total volume.

and if You look at the code I'm using for My volume "slide bar" it's no more accurate doing so with the images....



I can live with things the way they are, but all this mess and bickering was just in the pursuit of an answer to the question...."Is there an easier way this can be done? and if not, why not?"


It's not like I'm campaigning for a change that HAS TO BE MADE, of course I'm not.
And I know that not every user suggested change can be implemented, I just didn't think that this particular feature would be so difficult to replicate via other means if a way to do it directly wasn't immediately apparent.

You know, I've never meant to frustrate anyone here......and I know it's not about "sticking to Your values, not relenting, or not giving up", it's not about that on My part at all.

I would just genuinely like to be able to display My volume level not only graphically, but in text as well, as a percentile of the "Maximum Target DAP Volume", and I beleived that others may of liked this feature as well.

Evidently I was wrong, in part at least, and I appologise.


Sincerely,
[St.]

[Llorean]

How are percentages *more* accurate since behind the scenes they'll be approximated to DB values anyway? Of those 100 steps for 100%, as many as half of them won't even change the volume. Possibly more.

Also, what problem does having an accurate image-based display solve? Unless you can count the pixels, you still can't re-set the volume to the same level as before without seeing numbers.

Basically, you didn't answer my question about what problem it solves.

You've basically instead gone off on a tangent about how to use percentages to make a completely inaccurate volume display while calling it "more accurate" because yes, it will display a consistent amount of images for every player, but either it will have to skip images (because the volume will need to jump in db-sized steps anyway) or button presses will need to not change volume (because there aren't as many db as there are percentages).

Either way it's physically impossible for a percentage scale to be as accurate as simply displaying the db number while still presenting a consistent number of steps for every player.

So trying to use accuracy as an argument for it doesn't work - the players simply don't work that way. Showing it as percentage doesn't change the fact that behind the scenes it's using db, and thus the step sizes are tied to the db steps.

[[Saint]]

So trying to use accuracy as an argument for it doesn't work

I've tried to make the point *SO MANY TIMES* that I'm not arguing.....

Evidently that's all You're looking for, and no matter what I say I'm NEVER going to be able to pursuade You.

(as if I even have to anyway),

You seem to have this "what I say goes...." mentality that frankly, I just can't be bothered with anymore.

Thankyou for officially making a mountain out of a molehill.



Sincerely,
[St.]

[Llorean]

So trying to use accuracy as an argument for it doesn't work

An argument is, to quote the Oxford English Dictionary, "a set of reasons given in support of something." No offense, but there's no way to deny you're giving reasons to support this idea.

I think once again you're getting yourself worked up over assumed tone.


These are all valid objections to your suggestion, and whether you think so or not they're going to need to be discussed at some point. Why not attempt to actually address specific and individual points. For example, while it's mathematically impossible for percent volume to be more accurate while simultaneously having the same number of steps on every player, it's still possible you may have an actual problem of some sort it solves.

[[Saint]]

Llorean,

Well, fact is that You don't see the "problem" I have as a problem and more of "something I should just deal with" will negate this post I'm sure.


My problem is this.


Wanting to display the volume as a percentile of the "Maximun Total Target DAP Volume" instead of a value that I (and probably others) see as completely arbitrary when compared to the proposed alternative.

How would this benefit Me?

Well, it's the whole effect I was trying to achieve, and as I'd said, My WPS *was* based around visual symmetry and the current code just doesn't allow for it to "look or perform"  accurately, now this may not have bothered Me at all in the slightest if it wasn't one of the key features of My WPS, but it is/was so......

I realise that this is ENTIRELY about aesthetics....but this is a WPS customization forum after all.

I just wanted to know, was there a way to do this any better, I found out there wasn't.

Then,

I wanted to know, "is anyone else annoyed by the same thing I am? could We change this?"

Apparently not really, and We can't.

Fair enough, I had left it at that but I'm *CONTINUALLY* being asked to justify Myself which if You'll notice is something that I've never asked You to do Yourself in the best interests of BEING RESPECTFUL TO THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERING OPINIONS TO THAT OF YOUR OWN

And finally, I guess I just see it as being basic functionality.
What purpose does it really serve to display the battery in Volts?

Point is, You *CAN* if you want to.
Fact is I've personally NEVER seen an "off the shelf" DAP that *DOESN'T* display the volume in the mannor that I'm intending, and I "personally" have no need for viewing the volume in dB at all....so THAT is why I'd at least like the OPTION to be able to do so IF I chose to, but I now know that (for the moment at least) that it's just plain NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

And I can live with that, I'm slightly annoyed as I'm now scrapping about a fortnights worth of WPS building to start over again almost completely, and THAT is why I would of like another way for this to of been done, and THAT is why I've been insistent.

I'm not sure how many times I've apologised for causing a disturbance, *as it's NOT something I like to do at all.
I'm not sure how I could explain WHY I wanted this feature available to Me, or Why I would find it usefull any clearer and the fact that You disagree about the relevance of this feature means that We'll never see eye to eye, so the point of this continuing gets lesser and lesser by the minute.

I hope We can walk out of this without it letting it affect Our opinions of oneanother.
Having an opinion, and being opinionated are entirely different things and I hope You can recognise that.

Sincerely,
[St.]

EDIT:

*Cause a disturbance, not apologise.

[Llorean]

This is the Feature Ideas forum. It was moved here, so no this isn't a "WPS Customization forum."

You proposed a change - it will be criticized. You may not realize this but a large portion of better audio equipment does display the volume as db (and many graphical equalizers do as well). The fact that you're used to cheap consumer electronics doesn't mean that we should waste space on a feature more or less redundant to existing functionality.

You were told a way to do it already with the existing tag. When told you decided it wasn't good enough because it wasn't, among other things, "accurate" or "the same on all players." Which, mathematically, the percentage will be worse.

Basically, you got reasons because you attempted to justify your point with points of your own that just don't hold up to basic math, and never really talked about the functionality.

Being respectful of other peoples opinion does not mean "staying silent about objections they have when they propose a change to software you're interested in." If your opinion only affects you, that's fine. If you propose making it affect me, I have as much right to object to it as you have to stating yours in the first place, and it should only be considered disrespectful if I make it personal. So far I've only stated objections to your opinion. You don't get to call "don't be disrespectful to me" as a way of defending a bad idea because you're unwilling to go into detail in defense of it.

If you think your ideas stand you don't need to keep responding to my objections. It's that simple. You read them, decide they're a bunch of nonsense, and leave it as self-evident to others that my objections are nonsense. But the fact of the matter is, it's mathematically impossible for percent volume to provide a more accurate volume meter than the current one without explicitly customizing it for every target, just as you would have to with this one. The only thing you could possibly gain, in terms of accuracy, is degrees of precision in the clipping range.

You haven't yet even explained why the accuracy is useful (what problem it solves) only "it looks good for my WPS since both sides use percentages."

As to the battery argument - percentages are useful in a battery. 50% remaining means "50% playing time left." Since playing time decreases with battery age and there's no good way to accurately calculate it, and it changes with use patterns, this is actually more useful than percent volume or voltage in a variety of ways. Of course, you're only addressing this from the aesthetics, and as you'll note I haven't once claimed your aesthetic reason is invalid at all. I've only stated that so far it's the only *valid* reason you've given, and I don't think it's enough.

Of course, if we're talking respecting other peoples' opinions, I find it rather shocking that I've granted that the one thing about it that is based on opinion so far (that it's aesthetic) while simply objecting to areas where you haven't fleshed out facts and details, and yet that's what you're getting upset about.

My recommendation would be to read what I say a bit slower, and maybe take a break if you find yourself getting worked up.

If you think it's only valid aesthetically then just say so. But if you start throwing other reasons like "accuracy" out there, you need to learn not to get upset when people start picking at them, especially if the math behind them really doesn't hold up. You're continually being asked to justify points that I object to, which is what you should expect in the forum specifically set aside for discussing the merits and flaws of proposed ideas. If you don't want a point objected to, don't state it in the first place.

And while the choice of decibels may have been against some users' preferences, it's not arbitrary. It isn't based solely on preference - when given a choice between percentages and decibel the clear choice if you're only going to present one scale is decibels. It offers a great deal of information simply unavailable in a percentage scale. So please, stop throwing that word around unless you plan to justify its use by showing how decibels are a less logical scale than percentage volume in terms of presenting useful information to the users.

[[Saint]]

Being respectful of other peoples opinion does not mean "staying silent about objections they have when they propose a change to software you're interested in." If your opinion only affects you, that's fine. If you propose making it affect me, I have as much right to object to it as you have to stating yours in the first place

That's the thing Llorean, I've NEVER talked about removing functionality.
Simply adding it for the users that wanted to disply the volume field in this manner "if they wanted to"
You deny it, but You're taking this FAR too personally....Yeah, You disagree, wow, we get the point already.

And wheteher or not dB or percentile ir arbitrary is entirely relevant to it's intended purpose.
If it was indeed a high end piece of audio equiptment...I might expect things to be different.
Fact is, most of the time RockBox will be installed on cheap, easily accesible DAP's primarily.

Most, if not all of these players will display the volume as a percentage of the Total DAP's volume, and not dB

In that case, I see RockBox as taking away from the user something which had been previously consistent to them, and that is where my argument of "basic usability" comes from.

I *believe* users should at least have the OPTION to display this information in the format that thay are MOST FAMILIAR WITH.

If that happens to be dB then so be it, but do you not agree that it would save a WHOLE lot of back and forth on both our parts if (like the batter display) there were more that one display value presented to the user?

As that is My major concern, perhaps I have not voiced this enough.


My proposed change would not remove ANY functionality from users like yourself that prefer it displayed in dB.


Sincerely,
[St.]

[Llorean]

Where did I say you were removing anything?

As I said at one point "It's also about not overloading Rockbox with every idea every single person has - things need to be left out sometimes" which makes it rather explicitly clear I was discussing the addition of a feature - it wouldn't contribute toward overloading Rockbox with things if it were being swapped out.

This is what I'm talking about. In this case you've apparently leaped to the conclusion that I think you want to take away a feature I use and taken that as an excuse to accuse me of taking things personally.

The fact that you think this is personal more or less make me think you might be taking it so. As I've said, I'm only interested in discussing the more objective aspects of it - what problems it can solve.

So far you haven't listed anything the users can gain from it besides aesthetics (something I never denied they'd gain from it) and rather than actually discuss it, or simply outright say "I think that's all they gain from it" you've started quoting unrelated things I've said like my use of the word "arguments" or that quote in your most recent post prior to this one, then misunderstood them so you can make a statement about *me* rather than your idea.

(Begin Taking Stuff Personally)
Can I declare it's "personal" now since you keep telling me what I'm saying and doing despite the fact that I've never said you want to remove anything, and I used the word "argument" in exactly its described usage? Or are misstatements about what I've said because you feel like jumping to conclusions something else I shouldn't take personally?
(End taking stuff personally)

[[Saint]]

You stated, "when it starts affecting Me"...as your right to dissagree. If you use the display of dB, then this would not concern you at all.

If you're just fishing for Me to call you a Prick outright....it's getting pretty close.

[Llorean]

No, it WOULD concern me. What point of "it's still adding things to the Rockbox codebase" can't get into your head? I explicitly said it when I talked about overloading it with features.

Saying "if you don't use it, it won't affect you" is wrong. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding. These players have limited resources and the smaller, simpler code is the better for a variety of reasons up to and including whether or not it will simply run on players with very limited resources. There's also already a startling number of options. The less we add, the easier it is for people to learn what's available to them.

If you don't understand why I said it will affect me, you should've asked rather than assuming I read what you said wrong. It will concern me. It will directly affect me.



Also: please, please, PLEASE if you find it's taking you 10+ minutes to edit a post, reload the page FIRST to make sure I haven't responded yet. It's getting really tiresome seeing you add stuff after I've posted.

How is db unusable or difficult to use? You said it's a loss of basic usability. If Rockbox showed a percent volume scale from 0 to 100% it would be made up of imaginary numbers. They wouldn't even necessarily (or likely) be the same percentages as the original firmware uses. If a user needs to get used to different meaning numbers anyway, why not give them ones that are useful going forward? This would never be "presenting the user with the range they're used to." 100% will often be louder, and 0% will often be much, much, much, much lower. And a large range of consumer electronics doesn't use a percentage scale anyway. Many use numbers from 0-30. Or an image that fills up with rather random step sizes to match that image. So justifying it by what other things do depends entirely on your subset of other things, and how limited you're restricting yourself.

[JdGordon]

oh hell.... LOCKED