"Play after end of song" feature, as per iriver firmware

[rjg_scotland]

Hi there,

After a discussion on IRC on the topic between n1s,  domonoky1 and I, I've decided to post this on here.

A bit of background: I have an iriver H300. The iriver firmware has a feature which possibly only iriver users may be familiar with. This feature involves pressing the A-B button on a file in the file browser to tell it to play that file once the currently playing song has ended, and then continue through the filesystem from that point. It's possible other players have this feature in their firmware, but I don't know.

I found this feature incredibly useful and it's the only thing I really miss in Rockbox.

Now, from IRC I've learned that this needs careful explaining in order that it's not confused with existing playlist functionality.

This must be seen as a "Play after end of song" option with the "play" sense meaning the exact same thing as simply selecting (playing) a file in the file browser, but only after the current playing file has ended. This must be seen as a delayed playing action rather than having anything to do with playlist functionality in order to be understood correctly.

It could be described as "wipe any playlist and pretend you played this file from the file browser, only after the currently playing song has finished".

It's very similar to the existing "Play Next" feature in the Playlist submenu, except that that option only plays that single file selected and stops or jumps ahead to the next directory entirely and starts again from there if you have dir skip enabled.

Does this make sense? I think people who are more used to working with playlists perhaps don't quite understand this option at first. It's not really working with playlists as such, it's really just like delaying an action.

If such a feature were ever to be implemented, I'd say it would probably make more sense to have it in the root of the file browser context menu, rather than burried within the playlist or another menu.

An example use for the feature on the iriver was when using it in the car. I would decide as I went along what I wanted to play and just quickly pop into the file browser and tell it what to play next. Sometimes I even knew the layout of the filesystem in relation to the currently playing song to be able to select tracks blind.

For those interested, the IRC conversation can be read here

If there's any other iriver users out there who found this feature useful, do say!

Thanks!


Edit: This might clear things up, after further IRC discussion!

00:15:01  < stripwax> I think the setting would look similar to the existing "warn before erasing dynamic playlist" setting   --   a new setting like "preseve currently playing track before erasing dynamic playlist"
00:16:51  < stripwax> Right now, when you just select a track, it (and the rest of its directory) gets put into a blank dynamic playlist.   If that setting* is true, the only difference is that the currently playing track gets bubbled to its own spot at the top of the playlist and the new tracks go after it.  I might have a stab at doing that (doesn't sound too hard)

*that setting = that imaginary new setting

[stripwax]

Yep   So it doesn't look like a difficult change (there's literally a couple lines in filetree.c that would need to change, and a new option added).  I think I would also use this feature.  However I'm not sure which of the following two approaches would be better

1.  Have it on the CONTEXT menu for selecting a track (e.g. context->Playlists->Delayed Play From Here).  That Playlists menu is already particularly cluttered
2.  Have it as a system setting (e.g. as described in irc convo snippet above)  -  however that would mean that if you have that setting enabled and you DO want to immediately switch to that track, you would click to play as you do normally, and then skip the rest of the currently playing (preserved) track


#2 doesn't sound too bad, to be honest.  Any other thoughts/opinions?

[Llorean]

I think it makes more sense in the context menu.

What might make more sense is making the current "Play Next" option behave like this when done on a single audio file (and behave as normal when done on a folder or playlist). Is there much use for a single-song "Play Next" (I thought it was generally used on folders anyway). If there is, and since it doesn't really relate to the normal 'play' functionality from tapping select on a song, another name could be come up with for starting a new playlist from a single song to be played at track end.

[rjg_scotland]

That's a very good point Llorean. I personally don't think there's much point in the existing functionality of the "Play Next" option on single files, so changing its behavior to as I've suggested would fit in very well. I guess someone out there might have a use for the current way it works though, so it might need further thought before it's changed. Coming up with a sensible name for a new function does seem to be a bit of an issue I agree.

Thanks for the input so far guys.

[AlexP]

I think the context menu makes more sense than a system setting - I'm not sure about changing how play next works though depending on what you are "playing next" as that sounds a bit like a recipe for confusion to me.

Incidently, I do use the play next on single files if I'm listening to a specific playlist and the current song reminds me of another song then I use it to listen to that other song, then continue with my current playlist.  I don't use it all that often, but often enough to not want to lose it   I suppose I could use queue next for that, so my primary argument against changing play next remains the potential for confusion.

[Llorean]

"Play Next" is specifically designed not to continue with your current playlist though. It replaces the current playlist with the file (or folder) you've selected.

Wouldn't "Queue Next" (as you've suggested) or "Insert Next" be the ones you'd want for your situation?

Or am I confused about Play Next (I'm pretty sure I know what it does because I was part of the discussion for naming it, but maybe it's changed?)

[AlexP]

Sorry, you are absolutely correct - I confused myself with insert next.  That being true, I agree that play next on a single file is likely to not be heavily used.

[rjg_scotland]

So the question is, would changing the functionality of Play Next on a single file so that it continues to play from that point on in the filesystem confuse or upset people?

[Llorean]

It might confuse people, though obviously documenting the change would help.

Since most people think of "clicking select on a file" as "playing the file", having it mimic that behaviour when you select a single file to "play next" (which is what the change would do) might actually make the command more intuitive for some.

Basically... some will like it, some won't.

What we really should do is find out if there's a use case for the "play a single file next" situation that's significant.

[steak]

(modified & simplified after I have finished reading rockbox manual for Cowon D2, assuming features apply to all devices whenever possible)

This post is the one & only why I browse forums on players & firmwares

I have this feature on my old iRivers iMP-350 aka "SlimX" and iMP-550
AND... on my HiFi system when I switch beetween Vynil, CD, tape & MD Decks 

It's so useful, natural, (ana)logic, SIMPLE & OBVIOUS, I cannot understand how no serious so called "advanced" player does not allow it anymore.

Currently any player only allows you

• EITHER to click on a file which starts playing immediately, stopping the current track in the middle
• OR to queue a file in a playlist but it's always "appended" instead of "inserted" meaning it's not going to be the next track

In playlist mode, only Rockbox to my knowledge has  "Insert next" & "Queue next" features which match the subject.

Here's what I (we ?) need, in order of usefulness :

• 1st (& foremost) "Queue single next" (when you are not currently using a playlist). This feature would NOT trigger ANY playlist.
• 2nd "Queue single file next" (when you are using a playlist). When used several times before the end of currently playing file, this feature would replace/refresh the "Queue(d) single next" file every time you change your mind.
• 3rd "Queue file(s) next" (where "file(s)" would result from searching through folders or tags) would be ultimate but not so much needed feature
• 4th & more... "Insert single next" or "Insert file(s) next" seem insane, but I mention them along with the fact that I'm planning a career move towards psychiatry

It seems that the main problem would be more to name the feature(s) than to create the program for it (?). Don't worry about it, guys like us (me) who know what they need will understand & use it, whatever you call it, as it (especially "1st feature") will end 10 years of craving !!

[GodEater]

1st (& foremost) "Queue single next" (when you are not currently using a playlist). This feature would NOT trigger ANY playlist.

Whether you're aware of it or not, you're ALWAYS using a playlist when you play a song with Rockbox. Rockbox's playback is entirely playlist based.

2nd "Queue single file next" (when you are using a playlist). When used several times before the end of currently playing file, this feature would replace/refresh the "Queue(d) single next" file every time you change your mind.

In my opinion, the playlist options for insert and queuing are already overcomplicated, and I personally wouldn't welcome yet another option here.

[steak]

1st (& foremost) "Queue single next" (when you are not currently using a playlist). This feature would NOT trigger ANY playlist.Whether you're aware of it or not, you're ALWAYS using a playlist when you play a song with Rockbox. Rockbox's playback is entirely playlist based.

2nd "Queue single file next" (when you are using a playlist). When used several times before the end of currently playing file, this feature would replace/refresh the "Queue(d) single next" file every time you change your mind.

In my opinion, the playlist options for insert and queuing are already overcomplicated, and I personally wouldn't welcome yet another option here.

Obviously I wasn't : to be honest I haven't even tried it yet but will give it a try as soon as I get my hand on a cheap SD card or as soon as the D2 gets the "stable port" status.

Having had second (& third & more) thoughts about this post I am already assuming that the "Queue next" option does already most of the job. It does actually more since it keeps (may be wrong) all the files which would have been "queued next" before the last one and until they are played which is a useful add-on plus it can easily be cancelled by deleting the whole current playlist if you mimic a "play with no playlist", you'd start with a new empty one, or by fiddling with the "save the playlist"/"load it back" feature before starting to "queue next" file(S).

I bet you'll find this OVERovercomplicated and guess what ? I agree but there's only a single way to skin a cat : you've gotta catch it first !!

Thanks for "wasting" your time replying to my "inaccurate" post, I'll try to make the next one better.

Best regards

and Merry Xmas to all the rockbox developpers, users, funders and so on...