Apology, and a period of break.

[tenzip]

The inability or lack of will to suffer fools gladly is often seen as arrogance by the fool.

Have a good vacation, Llorean, take some time and relax.

I know that moderating can be mentally and emotionally exhausting, and I've only done it in places that were much more lenient in general.  Trying to be as strict as you, (collectively), is much more difficult, and I salute you.

[TexasRockbox]

The inability or lack of will to suffer fools gladly is often seen as arrogance by the fool.

Only by the fools who think they know something -- those who expect to be served rather to to serve.  The others are left rubbing their head wondering why they got hit with a hammer.

Always be a servant.  Do the dirty job no one wants.

[ThaCrip]

The inability or lack of will to suffer fools gladly is often seen as arrogance by the fool.

Only by the fools who think they know something -- those who expect to be served rather to to serve.  The others are left rubbing their head wondering why they got hit with a hammer.

Always be a servant.  Do the dirty job no one wants.

yeah when i help people with XBox360 moding on random forums i just tend to get 'straight to the point' and treat people with respect. the only time i might get a little upset is if they completely blow off what im telling them or miss obvious stuff that was clearly covered in a tutorial on it etc.

but in general... helping people in forums requires alot of patience and the general rule is... people generally like to be 'spoon fed' (like talking to a live person when helping them mod there xbox360 console vs reading a tutorial at times) lol... which i know can upset people but i think it's just the way it is with a lot of people. which must be true because you see it time and time again with new members on random xbox360 moding forums.... because it's just 'easier' for someone to come in to a forum and ask me 'what do i have to do to mod my console with a benq drive in it etc' vs looking around on forums for a year to find the info they need and i usually just give them direct links to what they need or what they need to do etc.

in fact, when i first got into XBox360 moding i was being spoon fed a lot of the info i learned but eventually that paid off and now i use my knowledge to help other people on forums but i do tend to notice i repeat alot of what i say quite often as most of the forum help questions are usually more on the basic side of things but i just accept this because it's the way it is for a average joe coming in and wanting to get straight to the point because they dont have the time to sort through all the crap. but the only reason i learned all that stuff besides the benefits is because i actually have a interest in the slightly more technical side of things.

so my point is... when helping people on forums in general EXPECT to at least semi-spoon feed them most of the info and get straight to the point. i know it can be tiring at times but i just accept it and if it makes other people happy then i done my job

Don't be surprised if people start avoiding you

now that i think of it i should not have posted the 'this is the perfect time to do it' part as that can be interpreted in a negative way, like im trying to rub it in etc etc (which was not my intent)... so my apology's about that comment.

but i still honestly feel that Llorean is a little to aggressive etc 'at times' like i was saying which as far as i can tell most of the other admins (if not close to all of them) generally seem pretty cool

im not saying he was not helpful and im sure he helped ALOT of people over the years, which cant be a bad thing, but i just feel his general posting style and comments at times are a tad overboard and sometimes nit picks about some stuff.

and for the record he's (Llorean) helped me a little here and there to so i have to thank him for that much

[Llorean]

8.5% of the posts on this forum are by me. Think about that number for a second. For every 11 posts total there's one by me. If I "spoon fed" it would probably take me about ten times as long to write posts, on average. I'd have to look up the very same things that I'm telling them to look up. Since they're asking for help, it seems reasonable to me they're the ones who should be spending time on it if either of us could be doing the same thing.

If I had "spoon fed" as you said, I'd have done 1/10 as many posts. Probably far, far less. On top of that, there would be a lot more posts in the wrong areas. It would make it that much harder for people to even find information in the first place.

If you think "spoon feeding" is better, then do it faster. Be there before I was, to give them the answer. Help them, before I could tell them to go somewhere else. Put your money where your mouth is, step up to the plate, and make the spoon feeding happen.

But, honestly, I literally read every single post on this forum for the last three years. If I was sick for a few days, I'd sit down for a few hours one night once I was better and read through every single post I missed, making sure I hadn't missed someone with a serious problem not covered in the documentation that needed help solving it.

But really, until you're willing to put in the effort to put your method into action, and make sure everyone gets helped (because believe it or not, pointing them at the manual does help them since they clearly hadn't thought to look there yet), and not only gets answers, but gets the right answers (that means also checking up on what other people say, 95% of my time on the forums was spent not posting, but reading through other posts for potentially dangerous suggestions, so this means you really also need to learn about the other players) I'd be wary at criticizing the methods currently employed.

Also, the forums aren't just here for the users. They're also here for the developers (who you've completely forgotten exist in your post there). The developers like to be able to visit the forums, and if they're working on playback, drop into the playback forum and see organized, well named threads that are actually about playback issues currently be experienced by users.

The idea with keeping the forums organized was that the rules were ones that people can follow (true) and keep the forums organized so the developers don't say "the forums are just a mess of people who won't read the manual, there's nothing of value there" and avoid it.

Since the developers are the ones actually making Rockbox, and without them these forums wouldn't even need to exist any more, it's probably a good idea to make sure that they're happy too, right? In fact, one might say it's more important that they get what they need out of the forums, even if it means a fairly small amount of discomfort for the users.

That being said, it's no longer my responsibility to see that these things come true. Nobody really stopped you from answering every single question people asked with the spoon feeding they "need" before. As long as you do it within the existing guidelines, I invite you to show just how well that system works. Maybe you can change the minds of the new administration. At the very least, it will be interesting to watch.

[ThaCrip]

If I "spoon fed" it would probably take me about ten times as long to write posts, on average. I'd have to look up the very same things that I'm telling them to look up. Since they're asking for help, it seems reasonable to me they're the ones who should be spending time on it if either of us could be doing the same thing.

sure it's reasonable to ask someone else to do the searching for themselves...  because like i say not everyone has the patience for 'spoon feeding' etc.... i just do it since it's more direct to the point and helps them. but sure, like you said you wont be able to post as much doing it the spoon feeding way but i prefer 'quality over quantity' myself. (i mean no offense here as i read what you said that you READ ALOT on these forums and sometimes use your time correcting other people's bad advice etc )

If you think "spoon feeding" is better, then do it faster. Be there before I was, to give them the answer. Help them, before I could tell them to go somewhere else. Put your money where your mouth is, step up to the plate, and make the spoon feeding happen.

well i think it's safe to assume NO ONE can work miracles. lol. because 'spoon feeding' has it's tradeoffs, like it can be time consuming but you can get into more specifics with a user that way and offer them better quality help at times. i would post more on Rockbox forums, but to be honest, im limited on my knowledge of Rockbox that would be of any help on these forums. so that's why i usually don't post to much and usually stick to XBox360 related stuff since my knowledge in that dept is much more useful to the average joe.

But, honestly, I literally read every single post on this forum for the last three years. If I was sick for a few days, I'd sit down for a few hours one night once I was better and read through every single post I missed, making sure I hadn't missed someone with a serious problem not covered in the documentation that needed help solving it.

yeah, like i say that's great work and more than anyone can ask. im not trying to question your dedication to helping people. i guess maybe your help is a little 'different' than what i do is all. but i figure with both ways, at the end of the day, everyone wins. because more people helping people cant be a bad thing in general.

(that means also checking up on what other people say, 95% of my time on the forums was spent not posting, but reading through other posts for potentially dangerous suggestions, so this means you really also need to learn about the other players) I'd be wary at criticizing the methods currently employed.

yeah that's quite good work there as it's ALWAYS good to correct bad advice ... and i ain't criticizing the current methods to much... i just tend to look at 'most forums' as a way for 'average users' to get help with whatever the topic is about be it computer help, console help, rockbox related stuff etc etc.... but maybe it's different on these forums?

i just like to keep stuff simple.

Also, the forums aren't just here for the users. They're also here for the developers (who you've completely forgotten exist in your post there). The developers like to be able to visit the forums, and if they're working on playback, drop into the playback forum and see organized, well named threads that are actually about playback issues currently be experienced by users.

sure i can understand that to... and if the developers are more of the main concerned here over 'average users' then by all means ignore what im saying. but like i said above, i tend to view 'most forums' as a way for people to get help with whatever they need help with.

The idea with keeping the forums organized was that the rules were ones that people can follow (true) and keep the forums organized so the developers don't say "the forums are just a mess of people who won't read the manual, there's nothing of value there" and avoid it.

Since the developers are the ones actually making Rockbox, and without them these forums wouldn't even need to exist any more, it's probably a good idea to make sure that they're happy too, right? In fact, one might say it's more important that they get what they need out of the forums, even if it means a fairly small amount of discomfort for the users.

sure, you could easily make that argument and i cant really say anything to counter that... but if that's the primary concern on these forum's, then most of what i said wont really matter to much.

Nobody really stopped you from answering every single question people asked with the spoon feeding they "need" before. As long as you do it within the existing guidelines, I invite you to show just how well that system works. Maybe you can change the minds of the new administration.

im not saying my methods are 'better' than anyone else, or the current ones... i just tend to give people help to the best of my knowledge and like to keep stuff simple and keep a happy tone in the forums for a typical person who needs help, which cant be a bad thing at the end of the day

and i figure if i can give direct links to specific files etc etc which helps prevent a user from wasting there time and they can get straight to the point so they can get on with other stuff they want to do in there lives and there happy, well then i done my job.

so even though what i try doing might take more time per user and upset people like you because you could say people are lazy if they don't at least read a little bit before asking a question...  which i could understand if you got a little upset as it's not unreasonable to ask someone to do a little research before asking for help. i just prefer to give them exactly what they need  if i know exactly what there talking about..... but like i say i understand what i do wont work for everyone as some people just don't have the time or patience to deal with people like that.

p.s. im not trying to upset anyone in here like the admins etc and i understand my methods are not for everyone because it can require quite a bit of patience at times... but i just accepted (for me personally) that a lot of people like being 'spoon fed' is all and would rather not search around in the forums for 20-30+ minutes like some people do to learn the basics on installing Rockbox or whatever they might need help with. ( and for the record... i actually did the research when i installed Rockbox for the first time and it all went smoothly. lol)

just some thoughts ... and also, i figure a more slightly lax forum is always better than a more strict/power hungry (not saying this place is power hungry but i have seen some forums that are way to picky/strict and ban for minor stuff etc) forum as it gives people more 'freedom' to do/say what they want, all within reason of course, as we do not need people swearing and starting wars with each other as that's just bad for forums in general but i guess it happens even in the best forums from time to time... i just like to keep a general happy tone in forums where possible.

[Chronon]

The forums are mainly frequented by users.  I think the point is that it's not a stated goal of the project to grow the user base as an end unto itself.  I think that attracting users can be beneficial to the extent that some of these users will take the time to report bugs, help other users, write code, etc.  The purpose of the forums is to allow people to ask and answer questions and have discussions.  However, the quality of the forums as a resource for people (developers among them) gets degraded if it's increasingly populated with the same questions asked over and over again and essentially the same answer packaged in different ways.  Pointing people to the manual doesn't just provide an answer, it provides a way for people to find further answers. 

I don't think there's much interest in having lax forums here.  I have seen lax forums and they seem fairly useless to me.  All too often topics end up having little to do with the supposed subject of the forum. 

Anyone who answers questions for other people is free to do it with as much detail as they feel is appropriate.  Any users who wish to help other users can be as friendly as they like so long as discussion remains on topic.

[GodEater]

It's worth pointing out I think, that the forums as they operate currently don't need to have any rules changed to attract new users from whom we can recruit new staff and developers.

The current crop of "Experts" have all been recruited from active forum members who've helped out new users within the framework of the rules we already have. I think they're a fine bunch who add a great deal of value to the forum experience as it exists today.

In the last week we've had three new Experts gain their badges, and whilst it doesn't suddenly improve the quality of their work, since the fact that it was good already is what got them the badge in the first place, but it does give them (I hope) the "tap on the shoulder" to let them know that all that work they do (for free) is very much appreciated. It also shows our forum users that the advice they give can be trusted.

I truly believe these forums work very well as they are, and I see no need to change any of the rules we have.

[AstroBoy]

8.5% of the posts on this forum are by me. Think about that number for a second. For every 11 posts total there's one by me. If I "spoon fed" it would probably take me about ten times as long to write posts, on average. I'd have to look up the very same things that I'm telling them to look up. Since they're asking for help, it seems reasonable to me they're the ones who should be spending time on it if either of us could be doing the same thing.

I think to just respond to too many posts.  Maybe you should just avoid the easy (rtfm) posts.  Allow others to handle those.  You could respond to the harder posts.

I know I have felt slapped by some of your responces, like "look it up" or something.  Other people would respond "it's in the manual.  URL...".

I hope you don't feel slapped by me.  I hope you resolve your issues and return soon.