Why use hold switch to load original firmware?

[dreamlayers]

On 5G and other iPods, both the hold switch and the menu button can be used to load the original firmware at startup.  The hold switch has a disadvantage:  If a charger or USB connected, the iPod will turn on even if hold is on.  Then it will boot into the original firmware, and that's something that I and probably many other Rockbox users don't want.  Isn't the menu button enough for booting into the original firmware?

[cool_walking_]

http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20080114#11:22:23

[saratoga]

Why can't we detect some other button?

[Llorean]

The hold switch has a significant advantage specifically because you can turn on the iPod with a charger/whatever while hold is on and get the OF to boot.

The timing of using the menu button provided difficulty for users.

[cool_walking_]

The hold switch has a significant advantage specifically because you can turn on the iPod with a charger/whatever while hold is on and get the OF to boot.

The timing of using the menu button provided difficulty for users.

When you're going into the OF, though, aren't you doing it on purpose?  Meaning you are specifically following a set of steps?  Most of the time, the hold switch is not deliberately on because I want to boot the OF.  It's just on because that's the last state it was in.

Also:

That and Rockbox is designed with the intent to be a replacement firmware, not a utility program. Dual Boot is more of a safety precaution in case Rockbox isn't working for some reason.

[Llorean]

Dual boot may  be a safety precaution, but it needs to be one people can actually accomplish.

Some people were simply unable to manage the menu button timing after holding menu and select. You have to remember, this needs to be something anyone can do, not just "most people." The hold toggle is something very, very easy to do.

I don't see, at all, what "following a set of steps" has to do with it. Even if they're following a set of steps, it doesn't change that one method is easier to accomplish than the other.

[cool_walking_]

If you're following steps, they can be arbitrary.  They can be picked out so that they don't interfere with normal operation by booting the OF when it's unwanted.

Does simply holding MENU as soon as the iPod starts booting not work?  Do you have to start holding it after the Apple logo or something?

[Llorean]

That doesn't address the fact that people had difficulty with it. Arbitrary steps still need to be steps people can readily accomplish. Saying "they can be arbitrary" is true, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have any care when selecting them.

Some people (especially older people) can't respond as quickly to the iPod turning on. Other people (the blind) can't SEE when it turns on, and have no means of feedback.

[cool_walking_]

doesn't mean you shouldn't have any care when selecting them.

Exactly. Take care that you don't interfere with normal functionality!

Some people (especially older people) can't respond as quickly to the iPod turning on. Other people (the blind) can't SEE when it turns on, and have no means of feedback.

I could always hear the hard drive make a click noise when it first boots.  I think if you have earphones in, you also get a noise from there (IIRC, it was a "pop", then soft staticy noise).  You have  to put the HOLD switch on at a certain time too - after you've reset it.  Per my edit in my previous message, can they not just reset, then straight away hold MENU?

[Llorean]

The ONLY "normal" functionality it interferes with is plugging in USB/Power while the hold switch is on. You can get around this by simply turning hold off before you turn it on.


And no, they don't have to turn on hold at a certain time. As we've already established, you can boot into the OF by having hold in before you power up the iPod, so no sign has to be watched for.

The problem with reactions was people not being able to react to the reboot quickly enough. Your haven't addressed that at all with your edit.

Look, it's simple - this is the best compromise. It's clear that you don't have a problem holding menu, so you're unwilling to believe other people have problems with it. They do, accept that. It may be outside your experience, but it happens. Having it on the hold switch makes the whole process vastly more reliable. Yes, it may cause accidental boots into the OF, but it still beats being entirely unable to boot into it if something goes wrong, which is what happens to some people if they can't manage the MENU solution and we remove it.

Meanwhile, the problem you're having with it can be avoided by a half-second action, flicking off the hold switch, before you plug in the iPod. If you really, desperately feel you must avoid the OF, simply install Rockbox without the OF present instead.

[cool_walking_]

Your haven't addressed that at all with your edit.

I was asking.  I appended "or something" to try to get across that it wasn't a sarcastic question.

It was actually never "half a second", because I always forgot, so it'd start booting the OF and I'd have to do the 6-second MENU+SELECT.

If you really, desperately feel you must avoid the OF, simply install Rockbox without the OF present instead.

Maybe I did it wrong, but I think I did this when I installed the 3.2 bootloader (used -wfb rather than -ab with ipodpatcher), and it just gave me a white-on-black bootloader message complaining that the OF wasn't there when I left HOLD on, which is just as bad.

By the way, I'm talking in past tense because I killed my iPod.

[Llorean]

So, you're requesting we solve your inability to remember to turn Hold off by making rebooting into the OF impossible for some of our users?

[cool_walking_]

I've never actually used the "hold MENU" method to boot the OF.  I asked if you have to do it at a certain time in the boot process (as opposed to just rebooting and straight away holding MENU).  If you can just hold MENU the whole time, you can hold MENU while inserting the USB plug from an OFF state.

If it doesn't hurt other people too much, yeah, I wouldn't mind features that mitigate the effects of my ineptitude.

[Llorean]

Should I just refer you back to the IRC quote you mentioned in your first post in this thread, or what? It was even you in IRC who was being told that...

[cool_walking_]

I thought maybe it was not true anymore, because of saratoga's reply.