Author Topic: Discussion of static topics (Read 1800 times)

Chronon · « **on:** February 05, 2008, 12:47:57 AM »

Pointing out wiki entries for discussion is appropriate for the forums. But static info like this should not live exclusively on the forums. It would be much more appropriate to put this into a wiki page and announce its location on the forums along with requests for input and so forth. A wiki page might only consist of plain text if appropriate. There's nothing terribly intimidating about that. If someone finds the documentation of the codes used for the wiki confusing then they can certainly ask about that on the forums as well.

Llorean · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2008, 02:36:10 AM »

Simply put: Documentation needs to be in a place that it can be properly indexed and found.

Forums are designed for discussion. Threads move. While you can bookmark one, either it needs to be stickied, or people need to bump it, for it to be easily found. Both of these are very objectionable solutions.

Wikis are designed for documentation. You can create a nice index, such as a page listing all the Tutorials. Someone who wants to find a tutorial to do something then goes to the tutorial page, sees one for what they want, and follows it. If there's not one for what they want, they can very quickly see that, and add one, if they know how to do something that isn't written about yet.

So, "static information" is considered spam. It does not belong here. It is not a discussion topic, and it simply clutters up forums that are already cluttered enough half the time.

Mikerman · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2008, 10:08:50 PM »

Spam? Come now ...

I always wonder if there should be a special forum section for helpful hints such as this (that is, the original poster's). A place where people who aren't going to create/post a Wiki could put down their thoughts. It still comes up in a search, and still serves a beneficial purpose, it seems to me.

I wouldn't expect that this would be seen with favor for various reasons, but wanted to toss it out there for thought, if not action.

Basta (Spanish for, enough).

lukeprog · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2008, 11:05:07 PM »

My apologies for putting this in the wrong place.

This is not spam. I don't know the author of the program.

Chronon · « **Reply #4 on:** February 06, 2008, 12:39:58 AM »

Llorean was not suggesting that you were advertising this software for profit. I think that he meant spam as in clutter. Much of the discussion here has been general in nature; commenting generally on the posting of tutorials on the forums.

I think the bottom line is: While tutorials (and other static, one-way messages) in the forums are actively discouraged, a contribution to the wiki would be most welcome and appreciated.

Llorean · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2008, 02:47:56 PM »

Simply put: There will not be a place in the forums for this. I'm going to delete this thread soon enough, so please post it in the wiki.

It's not particularly difficult to post it in the wiki, and having it there means there's exactly one place people can go to look for tutorials: The wiki. Its intent is to be a general purpose instruction manual. The Forums are a place where people can get a question answered IF AND ONLY IF they can't find documentation on it. The forums are NOT supposed to be a place for posting documentation.

Mikerman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2008, 12:38:17 AM »

I am sorry and wiith all due respect, posting in the Wiki is considerably more confusing than posting here in the forums. Saying that it is not so simply does not change matters, at least for laypersons, and tends to overlook the very human element. I actually tried earlier to start a new Wiki for the substantive comments here (even though they are not mine and I am a fairly capable person, generally at least) and kept on getting an error message, and had to defer attempts to later. (And yes, I tried to follow the Wiki on how to create a Wiki--maybe it's my flu this week.) The concept is great in theory, absolutely; but the execution has real issues, precisely my point.

Again and with all due respect, eliminating good and valuable content because it does not fit a rule that some laypersons find difficult to follow at least technologically suggests a real technology and rule issue to me, not necessarily the other way around (although I readily see the issues from the systems side). But hey, what do I know--I can't get the danged Wiki page started.

Footnote and interesting story: When Disneyland was being created, Walt Disney had observers follow guests around to see how far they would walk before throwing trash they were holding (such as candy wrappers) onto the ground; that information then was used to engineer where to place trashcans, and seemingly is one of the reasons why Disneyland remains as clean as it does. But enough.

Llorean · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2008, 02:43:15 AM »

Yes, and he PUT IN MORE TRASHCANS rather than saying "Okay, people can throw the trash on the ground."

So why not suggest a way to solve the technology issue, rather than suggesting people spam up the forums?

What error message did you get? Have you registered for the wiki previously? I mean, editing a wiki page is as simple as clicking "Edit", typing in the new content, and clicking to post it... The formatting for a wiki is no more confusing than BBcode. Where exactly is the barrier of entry at that makes it so significantly harder?

If we have people sneaking around, hiding their trash from us, we can't find out where they're tossing it, and put cans there, to follow through with your metaphor.

You've honestly not offered any advice to improve it, just said that we should.

Khittenheart · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2008, 11:44:32 PM »

Good evening, gentles. I felt compelled to register so I could add a thought here from a true new person.

I arrived here through a mention from Lifehacker about top iPod utilities. I've known about the site for all of an hour now. THIS POST is exactly what I have been wanting to know about.... I haven't opened the wiki. I am accustomed to surfing new sites by going through forums first, as the forums typically contain the most up-to-date information.

I do understand the desire to keep information like tutorials all in one place... but the reply to this post seemed unnecessarily harsh. I don't know if I would even have found this information if it wasn't in the forums, as it is getting rather late and my browsing time is limited. So, I really appreciate an easily accessible tutorial in a place that I am used to browsing.

And, now that I've said my piece, I'm out to see if I can kill my iPod.

Llorean · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2008, 12:08:15 AM »

Forums also typically contain a lot of random bad information, and a lot of random conjecture that pollutes searches. "Up to date" just means "the newest random crud someone said on the issue."

Why, exactly, would you intentionally avoid peer reviewed documentation with an index and table of contents that is *also* able to be kept exactly as up to date as forums, and instead wade through a support an development forum whose very guidelines say documentation shouldn't be posted here? I mean, after you read the guidelines, why did you even think you'd find this here?

It's extremely tempting for me to remove these threads, despite the loss of information, because you can't enforce a "you need to put it on the wiki" guideline otherwise.

Seriously, I understand the argument "I don't know how to work the wiki." But I don't agree with it. Unless there's a bug you click the Edit button in the corner, paste the contents of your post here into the wiki page, then save it. In all seriousness, what exactly is the problem with keeping documentation in a place that can be properly indexed and cross-referenced? Not to mention a wiki means that if someone improves the process they can simply edit the page and add their improvements, rather than having to start a new thread, or post a response. And wiki pages never shift to back pages, so they can always be browsed to and spotted without searches.... There's plenty of advantages to having it on the wiki. Other than "people like to search here because they haven't bothered to read the guidelines" especially over the wiki? (And please don't cite the technical hurdle. If you're installing alternate firmware on your MP3 player you can register for the wiki, click an edit button, and paste text. Complex formatting is not necessary.)

I mean, I, to an extent, understand that some people will look here first. If there's *no* tutorials though (which should be obvious, except when I forget to clean one up, and is part of the reason there are so few stickies) someone should rather quickly move to the actual documentation. Heck, there's even a "documentation" category on the bar on the left. If, on the other hand, there ARE tutorials, if someone doesn't find the information in a tutorial here they may not even look in the documentation.

I think picking a single place means not only do people providing new information not have to split their focus (search the wiki, don't find an article, create a new one, or do find an article, update it) but new people can reliably know where to look for future instructions and documentation.