10,000 Posts.

[mor]

What Brazilians asked on streets have to say About Llorean:

- He´s the sexiest moderator ever! (Marcia Aranha, homeless begger)

- Never saw before ( Eduardo Miranda, wall mart cleaner(that actually haves rockbox on his ipod, but never acessed the forum)

- I hope he´s the next king of brazil.(Thiago Oliveira, student on Unesp-Sao Paulo)

- He gave me a mushroom last week ( Vera Lucia - Owner of an High Shopp)

- we love you Llorean- (childs from Branca de Neve[snowhite] junior School )

Thank you Llorean - me

[countach]

Ah, you bad being !!

I always used to ask where would be album-art in the official releases, with caustic responses from you!!

One day, I went and read the Wiki, and never asked again.. LOL


And other time..... You rebuked me very much for verifying some kind of bug causing auto wake-up issue when the ipod was off... just because I ran an unsuported build !!!
hahahahahh






Well, now seriously: Congratulations. In fact, I use to moderate some forum and i treat in the same way at those lazy people like (sometimes) me.

[acb5649]

Well folks, this is it. Number 10,000. So, I've been your moderator and general annoyance for some time now, and as with this post I reach the 10,000 posts mark, I'm taking a small step back and looking at how things have gone.

I know I've yelled at a few (lots) of you. And I know there have been bannings, and rules violations. I like to think that I've enforced the rules as they're written. I've tried to be impartial. If you break the rules, no matter how respected or disliked you are, no matter how many or few posts you've got, I've tried to treat you the same.

So here's your chance to yell back. Call me on anything you like. Make something up, or point me at real problems. Offer advice for the next 10,000 posts, or just tell me how much of a jerk I am.

I'll leave this thread up for about a week or so, then I'll probably delete it to keep these forums on topic. But here's your chance, let me have it! But remember, watch your language. You don't have to be strictly on topic, in this one thread, but do try to keep it appropriate.

He says this but one of my posts was rudely removed from this forum.
And I still think Llorean is a wierd name.
Ha.

[AlexP]

Thank you, that is much better.

[thenrik]

Hi:

  Congrats! Thanks for the generous donation of your time as well as your patience keeping the forums in order.

Tom

[ki]

From personal experience, you tend to annoy people who search for help by being picky and impatient, and sometimes even rude.

I do find sometimes that the insiders on the project are intolerant. For myself, sometimes I almost can't bear to read the forums.

I sometimes wonder "does he really hate modertaing? If so, why is he always on here moderating?" I think Llorean hates moderating and people but he enjoys berating people putting a spotlight on them and there mistakes.

To be perfectly honest, I agree with all these statements. Although I have never personally had a problem with anyone here, after browsing the forum over the last couple of months, I have often felt that the admin and moderators can be extremely picky, negative, and quite rude on many occasions. I also have the impression that they really doesn't like moderating the forums and seem fed-up with constantly having to berate people.

Having said that, after noticing that there only seems to be one administrator and one moderator (?) I DO understand that it must be quite a task to try to organize everything and keep the forum running smoothly. If that is too much for one person, perhaps there should be more than one?


The point I really want to make is that if the moderators of a forum have an excessively pedantic or negative attitude towards the users, I believe that it has a huge effect on the community as a whole. Hopefully I don't have to point out why a strong, positive community is such an important thing, especially in an open-source project such as this one.
And unfortunately, I have not found the rockbox community to be a particularly positive or welcoming one.


It is not my wish or intention to complain or give negative feedback here. Instead, I hope that the admin, moderators, and any other regular posters here keep these points in mind.

If you ARE going to reprimand people, please give consistent reasons (sometimes a brief reason is given, sometimes none at all). Not only will this help the original poster, but if other people see the reason, then they are less likely to make the same 'mistake'. (Thus it should also create less work for the moderators)
Please make an effort to be polite.
Please try to keep a level of maturity. I have seen cases where moderators have responded quite immaturely and rudely. (For example, on the second page of this thread: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15155.15)

While the original poster of this thread (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15596.0) was quite ridiculous, it should have given a clue to the moderators that they had clearly upset someone and perhaps might need to rethink the way they handled the situation. Some of the later posts in the thread also raise some relevant points I think.


If you browse around, I think you can find a lot of examples of rude, snappy, sometimes immature comments made by moderators on this forum.
In many cases, the moderators do not seem to contribute anything positive to the conversation at all, and simply seem to express their own frustration or tell the poster off. (Example: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15692.0).

Sometimes responses like these may or may not be justified (in the above example, the original posted should probably have appended the post to an apparently existing thread), but I do not think this kind of response is ever appropriate.

The effect of that kind of response is probably going to be that the original poster (whose first post it was) will not return to the forums again. That may or may not concern you, but as an administrator for a community forum, I think it probably should. Another byproduct may be that other people reading the thread may be turned off by the community and rockbox in general.  

If a comment (or any action for that matter) is not going to be constructive, then sometimes refraining from commenting at all might be a better option.



As I said, I am not trying to place any blame here. I am not trying to point-the-finger or flame anyone. I am simply trying to point out the potential detriment to the community, and hope that the moderators and all the people here think more about the community and what they want to achieve or express with their comments.

I think Rockbox is a great project with a lot of potential, and hopefully the community can stay positive and supportive of each other.

[Llorean]

I think one key problem is this: In regards to my posts (especially the one linked in the third link) you're assuming a tone that doesn't exist. Read it without intonation, using dictionary definition of the words, and I don't think you'll find anything rude about that one.

In regards to the first one, sure, there was sarcasm in the last sentence, but I don't see how any other part of the comment was rude. I explained the manpower situation.

In regards to the second one, I don't see anything wrong with my comment there at all. Could you explain it to me?

People berate me for my word choice, and for my tone. I'm speaking English. They're written words. There is no tone except that which you imagine for yourself. I can't stop you for becoming angry with me because you've decided I'm trying to sound one way. Or because you think I'm speaking down to you, or being condescending.

I implore you to attempt to read my sentences without tone, as in the vast majority of cases that's how they're written. Word choice is simply a matter of clarity: I use the words that I feel will leave least room for confusion. If you think I'm trying to sound smarter than I am, again, it's not something I can do anything about. I have a manner of typing, and it will continue. A technical sentence is usually less ambiguous than a conversational one, and the purpose of these forums is to convey information, not to chat.

[zajacattack]

It's just the problem of the human nature to think that everyone has a bad tone to what they say.

BUT, I do agree that better word choices can PARTIALLY alleviate this problem.

And, I must admit, I think the mods should be consistent. Sometimes reasons are given and sometimes not. It should be the same for all the same circumstances.

[baobab68]

It is a shame that this thread is going to be deleted. It should at least be filed away as a reminder, something that mods can go back and read occasionally.

There are two or three mods that I have in mind constantly as I read through what Ki wrote. I don't think it was always about Llorean at all.

Since the project happily takes donations, it needs to be prepared to listen to what its users have to say.

Not everyone is experienced on the internet, and with coding, as everyone else. It's all very well to say "Search!" and "Read the wiki" - but some people just have no concept.

I know where you're coming from sometimes - people who ask for someone to "make" a particular type of WPS, or "make" a ROCKbox version of their favourite game, for example - but I just think the approach is sometimes a bit cruel. The thread that Ki quoted:

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15596.0

was clearly coming from a misguided person. The responses were just *mean-spirited*. There is nothing to indicate from the Paypal icon on the main page, what level of support or influence you can expect to get if you donate. He/she might have felt that it was totally kosher to ask for a feature. I'll admit I've not read the IRC logs to see what was said in IRC though.

I guess when it comes down to it, it's an individual's decision as to whether they do or don't participate in the forums. I must admit sometimes that I think I should wean myself off of these particular ones.

Llorean - I'm going to try reading your posts in a monotone from now on, giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I say these things in the same spirit as Ki, and from the same perspective - it's a fantastic project and a fantastic product, however the forums, while being a great resource technically, are not for the faint-hearted.

[Llorean]

The definition of donation: "Donation is a gift to a fund or cause" The key word there is gift. You give a gift without expecting anything in return.

I really don't understand why a person would expect anything at all in response to a donation. The word was chosen specifically to imply that you're not getting anything back. In all seriousness, are you suggesting we need to contain a link to a dictionary, or rewrite the dictionary definition visibly on the site, for people who don't actually know what donate means?

[ki]

As I said, it is not my intention to place any blame on you, or single you out. But since the topic was raised, I thought it would be appropriate (and hopefully beneficial) to express my impression of the community from the perspective of a relatively new user. Everyone loses perspective sometimes, and I imagine that that is especially the case when involved heavily in a project and being in charge of administrating discussions on the project. My hope in writing the post was to try to bring a different perspective in relation to maintaining a healthy community.
I linked to a few threads to try backup what I was trying to say, rather than simply expressing abstract statements or opinions.
I don't really want to get into a debate about right and wrong, but I will try to clarify my statements a little.

For the posts in question from the third link;

If there are already threads on this, why did you start yet another one? In fact, what is the question here?

I felt that this response to a user's first post was a little abrasive (even with flat intonation).
I agree that the second response was not, by nature, rude at all. However I also did not feel that anything constructive came out of the dialogue or that any kind of progress was made.

I understand that it must be frustrating when people do not follow rules or guidelines when posting, or do not bother to do more extensive research. But might I suggest that giving some kind of very brief information related to the topic as well as making it clear why a post is inappropriate or misguided would be a more positive way to handle the situation?
Especially for someone who is new and may not yet 'know better'.



As for the first link, I felt that the first half of your response expressing the manpower situation was indeed constructive and appropriate. Unfortunately, the second part seemed to make it personal, even though the person who made the post in question repeatedly stated that he was not complaining and simply expressing a viewpoint.

And of course people like you never pitch in by starting to learb so you can help next time Instead you just say you can't code, and give your opinion of how we could spend our time better as if we were too stupid to realize that playing music well is the single key function of a DAP.

In the second link, I was not referring to your response in that thread at all, but merely observing that when situations like that arise where someone is clearly upset by the way things have been handled, it may reflect a problem in the way a situation is moderated.
I do apologize for not making my point clearer in this part, and I shall try to modify it.

Again, I am not simply trying to point out faults on anyones part. I am just trying to raise an issue which I feel would benefit the general health of the community if it is considered.
It's nothing personal, and my comments apply to everyone equally, but since you are the administrator and this thread seems to be relevant, I thought that this was the appropriate place to raise the issue.

[Llorean]

In regards to the first one, as there was no question in the other person's post, should I not have asked what the question was? The other alternative was to say "There is no question here. As per the guidelines, this post is irrelevant" and locked the thread. I instead gave them the benefit of the doubt, and asked for clarification.

As for the issue of guidelines, everyone on this forum has been warned to read the guidelines at least once by the time I get to them. I feel it's somewhat redundant to have to tell them again. The only way they could not "know better" as you put it is if they chose to ignore the warning during registration. Frankly, why should it become my problem that they chose to ignore it?

This is the one thing I haven't understood, from everyone who complains about how we enforce the guidelines here, honestly. Why exactly does the burden of a user's willing ignorance fall on me, rather than on them for choosing to ignore the rules? Why is it my duty to be polite and kind to a person who has, essentially, walked right past the sign that says "Please remove your shoes at the door" and tromped mud over my carpet?

I know it's not a perfect analogy, and I know these forums aren't "mine", but that is essentially the situation. There's a sign outside, and they've chosen to ignore it, and we, as the administrators of this forum, are expected to smile and nod and clean up after them? I know we could be a bit more polite sometimes, but you seem when saying  we should give

kind of very brief information related to the topic

suggest that we should reward them for their behaviour? I don't understand this.

[baobab68]

In all seriousness, are you suggesting we need to contain a link to a dictionary, or rewrite the dictionary definition visibly on the site, for people who don't actually know what donate means?

No, just that you try to understand why he might have misunderstood. The way that OP stated the situation, he/she made it sound like there was a real misunderstanding there.

[Llorean]

Yes, but what you're not aware of is how the OP greatly misrepresented the situation.

There was no misunderstanding in his original two posts on the topic. He offered to donate money for a post, was told cleanly that it's not how we accept donations, and responded that he merely wished to make that suggestion to clarify how much he valued that port.

All well and good. Except his post was in the "New Ports" section, with guidelines clearly posted that the threads are for technical discussion. A different member of the staff came by and routinely removed the post and responses to keep the area clear. Until this point there had been no harsh words or ill feelings.

Then he chose to explode, not because of the misunderstanding over donations, but rather because his posts were removed, and he felt that it was a "dis" (disrespectful action, for non-English users) that his posts were removed without notice, despite clearly posted guidelines in regard to the purpose of that forum.

[ki]

I really don't understand why a person would expect anything at all in response to a donation. The word was chosen specifically to imply that you're not getting anything back. In all seriousness, are you suggesting we need to contain a link to a dictionary, or rewrite the dictionary definition visibly on the site, for people who don't actually know what donate means?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the person writing that post was justified in expecting a port to be developed in return for their donation. And if you read that original post (as misguided as it was), I think you will find that the person was not upset because of not receiving anything in return for their donation. I think what the person may have been angry about was the response they received to their inquiry and the subsequent deletion of the post.  

For the record, I agree that people have no right to expect to get something in return when giving a donation. But in a community project surely the members of the community deserve to be heard and treated with courtesy. I think that's true regardless of whether donations are given or not.



As baobab68 said, I am definitely not trying to suggest that anything I have said is exclusively about Llorean. I am referring to the community as a whole.
I only wrote in this thread because, well, he asked people to do so. (Thank you for doing so by the way Llorean  
But seriously, I hope no one takes this discussion personally, because it's about all of us in the community, and I hope there can be some positive change as a community that comes out of it.