iPod 5G Video: Rockbox AND Apple Firmware without iTunes Plan

[jamoiholland]

I've been browsing this forum today, and from the many useful threads I've read I think I can see how to get what I want to achieve on my 5G iPod Video. If this has been covered elsewhere in this forum apologies, I did try searching as many search terms as I could! I first installed Rockbox in 2006, mainly to get gapless playback. I lost Rockbox when iTunes updated the iPod firwmare, which amusingly brought in Apple's gapless playback, so I stuck with that for a while. My dislike of iTunes has now grown enough to make me look for an alternative, so I'm revisiting Rockbox.

As well as getting rid of the iTunes dependancy, I want to be able to make one set of playlists that can be used on my iPod as well as on my PC and XBOX360 (through a uPNP media server on the PC). This isn't possible using iTunes playlists, but m3u playlists, as long as they list the music files using relative paths, should do the trick, as the music will have the same directory structure on the PC and the iPod. It would be nice to still have access to the orignal Apple firmware though.

So, to achieve all this I reckon I have to:

1) Have rockbox installed on my ipod

2) Delete the old iTunes-copied music form the iPod

3) Use Windows drag-and-drop (or long-term, some folder sync software) to copy my music in it's directory structure over to the ipod, including the playlists that point to the music files with relative paths

4) Use some software that will create an imitation iTunes database on the iPod, and the entries in this database will point to the files in the nice directory structure, meaning I can still use the original Apple firmware if needed (Anapod Explorer? Is there a free alternative to this?)

Does this sound like a plan? Have I missed anything? Such want to check before I go through the long process of deleting the Itunes copied music and copying it all back in the nice directory structure!!

[GodEater]

The only issue I see is with part 4.

All the recent updates to the ipod firmware have stopped it reading music files outside of the ipod_control directory - no matter if there is a proper ipod music database on there pointing to the music files.

There were a couple of foobar2000 plugins which did this, first of all foopod, then foodop - but both of these fail to produce a working ipod music database if the music was outside the ipod_control folder and it's underlying structure when I tried them on my ipod 5.5G.

Of course, you're free to try it yourself and see if you can make it work...

[jamoiholland]

Thanks for that mate, much appreciated. Sorry for the wrong forum too (oops).

Hmm. If that's the only potential blocker, maybe I'll just have the "root" folder of my own music directory structure as the the /iPod_Control/Music/ directory...

/iPod_Control/Music/Artist/Album/etc <--sync--> d:/Music/Artist/Album/etc

... so that Anapod will find the files (it only looks in /iPod_Control/Music/ when creating the iPod's database, I just found out by trying the trail version), and so that the iPod firmware will play the files!?

From Rockbox playback I was planning on using the Database feature anyway, so browsing the extra two directories wouldn't make any difference to me (assuming iPod wouldn't freak out at making those folders non-hidden, so that Rockbox directory browser can see them?). I plan to use some directory sync software to copy the music across eventually, so that can just be pointed at whatever directory is. I'll have a go at this asap...

[soap]

Hmm. If that's the only potential blocker, maybe I'll just have the "root" folder of my own music directory structure as the the /iPod_Control/Music/ directory...

/iPod_Control/Music/Artist/Album/etc <--sync--> d:/Music/Artist/Album/etc
... so that Anapod will find the files (it only looks in /iPod_Control/Music/ when creating the iPod's database, I just found out by trying the trail version), and so that the iPod firmware will play the files!?

Not sure Apple firmware will work even with that directory structure.  Pretty sure it won't.

From Rockbox playback I was planning on using the Database feature anyway, so browsing the extra two directories wouldn't make any difference to me

Directory structure doesn't matter if you are using the Database - it is all abstracted away.

(assuming iPod wouldn't freak out at making those folders non-hidden, so that Rockbox directory browser can see them?).

 Rockbox will build the database just fine even with the folders hidden.  If you make them non-hidden I believe the next time you boot the Apple firmware they will be hidden again.

I plan to use some directory sync software to copy the music across eventually, so that can just be pointed at whatever directory is..

Again - I do not believe you will be able to get any directory sync software to work with the Apple firmware.

[jamoiholland]

From Rockbox playback I was planning on using the Database feature anyway, so browsing the extra two directories wouldn't make any difference to me

Directory structure doesn't matter if you are using the Database - it is all abstracted away.

Yeah, that's what I meant!


Anyway, from my original list:
1) Install Rockbox - done no problems
2) Delete the old Itunes-copied music - done no problems
3) Copy music to iPod in my own directory structre - done, within the /iPod_Control/Music directory
4) Regenerate iPod DB by reading the music files in my own directory structre - not quite

Anapod Explorer did find the music files, and claimed to have written entries into the DB for them. However, in the Apple Firmware several of them are missing, don't play, some music files are listed as videos, and there are also strange entries for some of the album art jpegs. That said, the Apple firmware did play the ones that were correct with no problems, so if the iPod DB creation worked proprely this could be a working solution.

I tried foo_dop within foobar2000, but when that tried the iPod DB creation it complained the full path/filenames were too long.

I also tried EphPod 2, but the iPod Tools -> Rebuild DB from iPod option didn't appear to actually do anything at all (or big user error on my part, it finds the "lost songs", just won't add them into the iPod DB for me!)

Then I tried YamiPod, this crahsed on startup with mhyp error, which I haven't got around to looking at yet in the documentation.

I've whizzed through these pieces of software pretty quickly, and should probably spend more time with the ones that aren't working as I may be operating them incorrectly. But the limited success with Anapod Explorer proves the concept works, if I can just find a reliable method of rebuilding the iPod DB once music has been added through directory syncing!

[soap]

Most all those errors are a result of not allowing the iTunes replacement programs to copy the files into Apple's directory structure themselves.
The 5th gen (at least) does not like the directory structure you are attempting to use.

[jamoiholland]

Most all those errors are a result of not allowing the iTunes replacement programs to copy the files into Apple's directory structure themselves.
The 5th gen (at least) does not like the directory structure you are attempting to use.

That's a bummer. All my files reside in /iPod_Control/Music/Artist/etc, and with no particular reason for choosing which files, the DB generation hasn't worked for some. The ones that work however, have all the ID3 info in tact, so they have had correct entries inserted into the iPod DB? If the other files did also would they not work too? The ones that work that have correct DB entries surely prove that the 5G can't be completely rejecting the directory structure?

[blueskip]

It sounds like you are attempting the same thing I originally attempted.  I don't think it's possible either.  But if you find a way to make it possible by all means let others know.  I'm anxious to hear from anyone that figures this out.  

I finally decided to dump apple altogether.  I'm still working with MediaMonkey to make mine work without apple for playlist creation and such.  You can view any devices folders and files in MediaMonkey making it easy to create playlists and other stuff just like Apple.  You just have to be careful because MediaMonkey is also compatible with apple playlists and file structure if you set it up to work that way, which is basically the same as using iTunes.  In other words if you don't set it up to view all of the FILES on the device, it will by default view just like apple does and synch just like apple does with the freaky structured folders and file names.  

So it will work both ways.  But to my knowledge it still won't do what you're trying to do, which is to combine the two unless I misunderstand.  

My device is completely drag'n'drop at this point and I'm still not sure I'm satisfied but I'm getting there little by little.  

[jamoiholland]

Interesting, its obviously a problem to which many people would like a solution. Rockbox has fantastically given a way to get out of using iTunes already, we're only really talking about having problems when wanting to use the original firmware at the same time, whilst having your own logical directory structure. Its an Apple problem than a Rockbox problem (unsurprisingly!) I'll keep on digging, try some iPod forums maybe, will certainly post straight away if I get it to all work reliably!!

[polygonal]

I think the apple OF is fine with /ipod_control/music/artist/blah.blah.blah structure, but the main problem is the path length is limited to some 64 characters (or something like that), and that is very easily gone over. Try a few files with shorter path length like /ipod_control/music/artist/a/a.mp3 and see if you can get it to work. I personally had some success with foodop with foobar2000 (I use a tagging software to truncate the filename if neccesary).

After a while, though, I'm dumping the OF altogether, and next time I have time to revamp my folder structure, I'll put everything propertly in /Music, not /ipod_control/music.

Hope that helps

[ki]

I want to do the same thing.
There is a program called retune which might provide a workaround. I'm trying it now...

[ki]

Well I -almost- got it working. I had actually given up, but then tried out media monkey and used the rebuild database option. After using that I opened itunes and to my surprise saw that all the database entries were there based on the directory structure on my ipod (music/) and all the files played fine and displayed perfectly.


I then unplugged my ipod and loaded up the apple firmware and went to browse for music files... to my surprise they all showed up and looked to be perfectly intact!

Unfortunately, when I tried to actually play a music file, it didnt play at all and just skipped to the next one (which also didnt play) and eventually just jumped back to the main menu. A very disappointing end to such a promising start.

But it does now allow me to use itunes with any directory structure I want.  Hopefully in the future the apple firmware can maybe be changed to work with it too.

[KindOfBlues71]

Apparently this is possible by using the foo_dop plugin for foobar2000 v0.94+. The person who created the plugin has this info in the FAQ:

How do I store songs on my iPod in my own directory structure?

Copy the files to the iPod in your desired structure. Then load the files from you iPod into foobar2000 and run the “Send to iPod” command on the files. Note: The path of media files on the iPod must be less than or equal to 57 characters, including a leading backslash (but not the drive letter or colon) and may only contain ASCII characters. Furthermore, some Ipod models will only play files contained within the iPod_Control\Music folder.

-KoB

[GodEater]

You mean the same plugin I mention about 10 posts above yours? That doesn't work on the latest iPod firmwares ?

[KindOfBlues71]

D'oh!  Sorry GodEater (and everyone else), I don't know why I didn't see that in your post.  I did read all posts in this thread - I swear!

Anyway, have you tried the newest version of foo_dop, 0.5.5?  The creator posted about the update HERE in his Hydrogenaudio thread on Feb. 11, 2008.