Problems with the TOS

[scorche]

1) What is so hard about taking a little time to point the user in the right direction(s) rather than just telling him that he shouldn't post here?

Most of the threads you linked us even show us doing that...

3) An excellent point. Then, why not start a sticky that explains how to effectively search and point the user to that?

but according to you a few posts ago, we shouldn't ever expect anyone to actually read it, correct?

Directing someone who is lost is better than just telling him he is lost, wouldn't you say?

see above

4) No, it is unacceptable for one to be irresponsible. However, ASSUMING one is or will be responsible is a problem.

So you would rather us expect the worst from the people instead of the best?

ASSUMING one has read the TOS and/or guidelines is a bad idea.

We assume that because they told us they did by hitting the button.  Should we instead assume people are lying?

Also, the mods are sometimes hypocritical. It is OK to say BL (for bootloader), OF (original firmware), mods (moderators), admins (administrators), etc., but when someone says "thx" or "u" or "4", it's the end of the world because they're "breaking the TOS."

Most of these are accepted abbreviations.  Surely you wouldn't say "Central Processing Unit" every single time you are referring to a CPU.

[Llorean]

1) If the right direction is "Not our site", how are we supposed to magically know where they can find relevant info? Am I supposed to know the whole internet so that when someone asks a non-rockbox question I can answer?

2) That's about the e200, not the e200R. And I read every single post in the Rockbox forums, so as far as "what's relevant here" goes, my statement was 100% true: Among people who've screwed up their devices, and talked about it here, this is the case. Your statement about the e200R is also covered by my statement there. Note that I clearly said "and not stopping to ask for help" when something unexpected happens. This means if the instructions are wrong, and something unexpected happens, THEY KEEP GOING rather than stopping and asking. So your point in refute is actually completely invalid based on the source material.

3) So, what you're saying is that we should point people to possibly irrelevant documentation (how to search) rather than absolutely relevant documentation (the manual)? How is it our job to teach them basic skills like "how to type something in the 'search' box"?

4) Actually, "TOS" and "mod" are not acceptable, but I figured that you would complain if I called you on them here, so my intention was to simply make you correct them after all this was done. As for OF and BL, these are considered technical terms, but really are a gray area. "Thx" and "U" aren't parts of any language, and cannot be looked up. OF and BL are frequently referenced and defined in Rockbox related discussion. Here you're simply quibbling, as it would be obvious that if we couldn't define some words as exceptions "Rockbox" would also be unacceptable. "Thx" and "U" serve no purpose other than laziness, and cause problems for non-English speakers. "OF" and "BL" have definitions as specific nouns in the scope of the project, along with WPS, 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G, and similar.

[zajacattack]

You're arguably the most obnoxious and consistently irrelevant poster in that forum though.  It'd be one thing if you'd had a few bad posts, but by my count, I ended up deleting something like 30-40 of your posts over the span of months, mostly because they just asked something that had already been explained, didn't ask or say anything, or just plain didn't make sense.  Seems to me the problem is you posting in that forum, not us deleting your posts.   I'm sorry you don't like it, but deleting contentless posts keeps threads from becoming unreadable.

For one thing, it's not just that. I've asked questions and have been trying to contribute for a while now; however, I am often times simply scolded at for asking or suggesting ideas. Any help I offer is shot down. Could you explain why?
Also, I believe the rules for this debate was to be respectful, like the TOS says, yet you are not abiding by that. Hypocrite!

but according to you a few posts ago, we shouldn't ever expect anyone to actually read it, correct?

Maybe they won't. But you seem to think the TOS helps even though no one reads it, so, following your logic, why not start a sticky? You could assume that people read it.

So you would rather us expect the worst from the people instead of the best?

Yes, that's exactly what you should do. Expecting the best is what leads to problems. If you expect that he/she hasn't read the TOS, you can then more calmly point the issue out and politely inform them what they have broken rather than assuming they know they are violating the TOS.

We assume that because they told us they did by hitting the button.  Should we instead assume people are lying?

Yes, because not many people take the time to read it. They just want help and register quickly.

These are accepted abbreviations.  Surely you wouldn't say "Central Processing Unit" every single time you are referring to a CPU.

Then, what constitutes an accepted abbreviations. That is a flimsy argument because "accepted" is very vague and relative.

How is it our job to teach them basic skills like "how to type something in the 'search' box"?

Since when is it your job to be unhelpful? Aren't mods supposed to help>

http://www.rockbox.org/tw...view/Main/ProjectGlossary

You are again assuming that the user knows to go here to look up information.

[scorche]

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ProjectGlossary

[Llorean]

Since when is it your job to be unhelpful? Aren't mods supposed to help>

You honestly want me to believe that the ability to type something in Google is something you expect us to explain to users on a regular basis? Or hitting Ctrl+F or equivalent in their PDF viewer? Do you expect us to give explanations for every possible method they could read our manual, in every type of software that can interpret HTML, PDF, tex, and raw text? Searching is a basic computer use skill, far, far below "Installing an alternative firmware on your MP3 player."

[saratoga]

For one thing, it's not just that. I've asked questions and have been trying to contribute for a while now; however, I am often times simply scolded at for asking or suggesting ideas.

Maybe you should complain about those instances then instead of ranting about everything inbetween.

Any help I offer is shot down. Could you explain why?

Well, with regard to the e200r thread, which is the only thread of yours I can recall reading, it was shot down because you lacked the skills to contribute in any productive way.

Also, I believe the rules for this debate was to be respectful, like the TOS says, yet you are not abiding by that. Hypocrite!

I don't believe they do actually.  And anyway, pointing out something like this should probably be exempt, since you brought up the topic of posting quality.  It'd be kind of hard for me to be both respectful and truthful here.

[zajacattack]

You're arguably the most obnoxious and consistently irrelevant poster in that forum though.  It'd be one thing if you'd had a few bad posts, but by my count, I ended up deleting something like 30-40 of your posts over the span of months, mostly because they just asked something that had already been explained, didn't ask or say anything, or just plain didn't make sense.  Seems to me the problem is you posting in that forum, not us deleting your posts.   I'm sorry you don't like it, but deleting contentless posts keeps threads from becoming unreadable.

Another thing. I believe you are forgetting that I did end up being the first to get e200tool to work on Windows, and that I was the first to rockbox my e280R in Windows. I'm not trying to brag; I'm simply pointing out that I would never had done that had it not been for some of the questions I asked in that thread.

You honestly want me to believe that the ability to type something in Google is something you expect us to explain to users on a regular basis? Or hitting Ctrl+F or equivalent in their PDF viewer? Do you expect us to give explanations for every possible method they could read our manual, in every type of software that can interpret HTML, PDF, tex, and raw text? Searching is a basic computer use skill, far, far below "Installing an alternative firmware on your MP3 player."

I can't believe that you assume that users know so much. The human race is decaying. Why do you think so many video games and programs (e.g. vista) end up removing things for user friendliness? Because it's easier to do that than to have to deal with ignorant users. If you made a "How to effectively search" thread, I'm sure that at least one person would read it, and that one person would have a much less chance of posting an inappropriate question. That could lead to less cluttering of the forums and less work for the mods. Why are you so against this?

It'd be kind of hard for me to be both respectful and truthful here.

Then, why do you expect that of the users of the forum?

[Llorean]

That could lead to less cluttering of the forums and less work for the mods. Why are you so against this?

Because "How to search" is not a Rockbox question. The internet is FULL of information about how to search if someone wants to know it. Of course, they'd have to search. They'd also have to search to find it here. What good does repeating the information do, if the only people it would help are the people who wouldn't read it in the first place?

I had a link to the famous "How to ask questions the smart way" essay in my signature for over a year. Yet many of the people I conversed with showed no evidence of ever reading it. Wouldn't "How to ask questions" be even more important than "How to search"?

[zajacattack]

Because "How to search" is not a Rockbox question. The internet is FULL of information about how to search if someone wants to know it. Of course, they'd have to search. They'd also have to search to find it here. What good does repeating the information do, if the only people it would help are the people who wouldn't read it in the first place?

And, yet, there are stickies on how to request features, how to report bugs, the forum code of conduct, etc. Following your logic, these should be taken down too; they aren't helping who they are supposed to.

I had a link to the famous "How to ask questions the smart way" essay in my signature for over a year. Yet many of the people I conversed with showed no evidence of ever reading it. Wouldn't "How to ask questions" be even more important than "How to search"?

Yet, you removed this from your signature. Did you known people didn't read it? Did you know that people were ignoring it? It probably did help because the people who read it probably searched, found an answer, and didn't ask.

[Llorean]

"How to request features" is important because Rockbox has a very specific feature request process. Searching is a general skill relevant to the entire internet. The entire internet, on the other hand, does not have a standardized feature request process that people can learn about elsewhere. Nor does it have a standardize bug report process. So, this information is relevant to people who *are* willing to read documentation, search, and find it.

While you cannot search for information on how to search if you honestly don't know how, being unable to file a bug report does not hinder you in an effort to search for information on how to file one.


As for my removing it from my signature: Signatures have a maximum size. I couldn't fit it any more. Simple as that. I never said people didn't read it. I merely said MANY people showed no evidence of having read it. Many other people actually asked intelligent questions, and could've read it. Or might not have, and just behaved well in the first place.

[cool_walking_]

You're arguably the most obnoxious and consistently irrelevant poster in that forum though.  It'd be one thing if you'd had a few bad posts, but by my count, I ended up deleting something like 30-40 of your posts over the span of months, mostly because they just asked something that had already been explained, didn't ask or say anything, or just plain didn't make sense.  Seems to me the problem is you posting in that forum, not us deleting your posts.   I'm sorry you don't like it, but deleting contentless posts keeps threads from becoming unreadable.

I believe the rules for this debate was to be respectful, like the TOS says, yet you are not abiding by that. Hypocrite!

What??  I thought that was a very polite way of putting it.  Just because you don't like the content, doesn't mean it's irrespectful.  It's like saying "faeces" instead of "s***".

[saratoga]

You're arguably the most obnoxious and consistently irrelevant poster in that forum though.  It'd be one thing if you'd had a few bad posts, but by my count, I ended up deleting something like 30-40 of your posts over the span of months, mostly because they just asked something that had already been explained, didn't ask or say anything, or just plain didn't make sense.  Seems to me the problem is you posting in that forum, not us deleting your posts.   I'm sorry you don't like it, but deleting contentless posts keeps threads from becoming unreadable.

Another thing. I believe you are forgetting that I did end up being the first to get e200tool to work on Windows, and that I was the first to rockbox my e280R in Windows. I'm not trying to brag; I'm simply pointing out that I would never had done that had it not been for some of the questions I asked in that thread.

Yes, but you could just as well have figured out a way to compile that program if you hadn't spent months annoying the rest of us.  

It'd be kind of hard for me to be both respectful and truthful here.

Then, why do you expect that of the users of the forum?

I don't.

[Llorean]

Saratoga: I did ask that the tone stay as respectful as possible. Calling him "obnoxious" was probably out of line for that, since it was irrelevant to the discussion at hand. People can be annoying, but it doesn't change whether the content of their posts are relevant or not. The fact that his posts were irrelevant and obnoxious (to you) doesn't matter, just the irrelevant portion does here.

[zajacattack]

It'd be kind of hard for me to be both respectful and truthful here.

Then, why do you expect that of the users of the forum?

I don't.

Doesn't this just illustrate my point even more? Many of the "experts" here who have problems with others breaking the TOS seem to think that it's OK for them to break it.

I still stand by my statement that either (1) the TOS need to be fixed or (2) the many of the mods need to be more polite and helpful and less rude and hypocritical.

Also, saratoga, how can you expect others to be respectful when you yourself set a horrible example? Your insults continue to prove my point that the mods need to relax and not be so uptight about the rules because they themselves often break the rules. No one is perfect and cannot be expected to be such.

Yes, but you could just as well have figured out a way to compile that program if you hadn't spent months annoying the rest of us. 

OK, now this illustrates my previous point that many of the Rockbox devs can't stand it when an outsider figures something out; they want to keep it among themselves. You just want to look for any excuse that makes what I did less important. You fail to grasp that concept that my "meaningless" questions actually ended up helping me who ended up helping develop a way for this to work on Windows. You want to undermine everyone who isn't an official Rockbox dev. Just because the questions seem "meaningless" to you doesn't mean that they can't end up being helpful.

[Yotto]

I believe the only solution is to have a dedicated person who scans the forums all day and, when a question is asked that is in the manual, that person opens the manual, finds the answer, gets the link, and posts that link in the forum. This person should also be able to handle any repeat questions by finding the correct thread in the forum, and direct the poster there.

Also, when someone asks a non-rockbox related question our dedicated person should search the internet to find the best place to ask, and direct the person there with a link.  If there's time, our dedicated person should log into that forum, ask the question, and get the answer to save the original person's time.

As the one most passionate about this topic, zajacattack, I think nobody is better suited for the task than you.

For my part, I've been (and quit being) a moderator in forums with no clear rules, and I have to say I'm a bit jealous of the setup here. I'd have loved to be able to actually point at a clear Terms of Service agreement when someone got out of line.  "Out of line" is a bit stricter here than it is on other sites, but this isn't a social forum, it's a technical one, and more is expected from the users of a technical forum. It's just the way it goes.