Problems with the TOS

[zajacattack]

Um, how is this board supposed to be user friendly when I can't even voice my opinion about the rules? You are again locking Rockbox within your circle of people and blocking outsiders from having anything to do with it.

We do not close the board to all but "experienced" users.  However, useless suggestions are just that...useless.  When people throw out random ideas that would be impossible to change anything, it does not help...it clutters.

Then, why are people told to not post in New Ports threads. I see people trying to offer help, and they offer their own, plausible ideas. Rather than being flexible and able to experiment, the Rockbox developers and mods simply get angry again and block that person.

[Llorean]

I'm reopening this, for the moment, with the warning that:
1) Stay respectful (everyone)
2) Stay objective. No conjectures about conspiracies, no screaming.

Keep this discussion reasonable, but bear in mind that locking it is an option if it gets out of hand, which is where it looked like it was going.

[scorche]

Then, why are people told to not post in New Ports threads. I see people trying to offer help, and they offer their own, plausible ideas. Rather than being flexible and able to experiment, the Rockbox developers and mods simply get angry again and block that person.

Care to give me an example?

[zajacattack]

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13269.0
Here, someone talked about a port being "cool". I understand that this is not very useful; however, after being told how to start a port, the post was locked! How can he be of any help now? He has to open a new thread and may get yelled at for doing that because of "repeating yourself" or "double posting".

[krazykit]

Another thing: refer to this post, http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=14034, in which an honest person asked for help. Now, it did not belong on the Rockbox forums; however, instead of being politely told where he could get help or where he could post it, he was told "Please respect our guidelines." How does that help him? IT DOESN'T! NOT ONE BIT!

This is actually a very poor example.  Certainly, the person is asking for help, but it appears that his problem is not Rockbox related.  Because this is a Rockbox forum, questions about unrelated problems are really not appropriate here.  He is not just told "Please respect our guidelines", but is also told that this is not supported here.  Since when is it our responsibility to be someone else's Google?  A search for "Sansa forums" would have taken him to the proper places to ask: Anythingbutipod or the official Sandisk forums.

[scorche]

Why would he get yelled at for doing what the "mod" told him to do?

If you're interested, read those links, find people who are interested, gather information about a new port and then start a new thread.

I see this as being very frank, informative, and nice.

[zajacattack]

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=9263.0
Back to the e200R post. Bagder said, "I got this amusing idea!" You will notice, he was never corrected about that, yet when someone else has an idea a little far fetched, they are instantly hounded upon.

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=10964.0
This shows the favoritism many of the mods hold. This man only says it "would be great" for a port, which is against the rules; however, because he is with the "Zune Linux Project", he was not corrected, but, rather, accepted. What is this? It's OK for mods and administrators and those of importance to break the rules, but not us?

[Llorean]

In response to the first link:
Bagder is a very experienced developer. His "amusing" idea was amusing because it was clever, not because it was silly or technically lacking. And in fact was very close to what we had to do finally to install it. It was a very good idea, but you seem to have pounced on the word "amusing" to think that it reduces its value. There was actually *nothing* far fetched about his idea, it was a logical conclusion based on almost all previous research.

In response to link #2:
He didn't say "It would be great." He said "We're working on this already, and would be interested in working with you guys or seeing if you guys want to work with us." It's very different to say "We have a project interested in collaborating" than "This idea is great, YOU should do it."

[zajacattack]

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13913.0
This thread shows just how unhelpful some mods, experts, etc. are (not to specifically rip on Chronon). Another user actually had to answer this person's question because the supposed "expert" didn't offer much help.

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13871.0
Instead of being told a good spot to look, he was told to "read the manual." If you really want to be open to all users, as you claim, why do you assume that every user knows the TOS, forum guidelines, and what the manual, wiki, etc. are?

[Llorean]

1) So you're saying "If an expert doesn't immediately know the answer, and tries to find out more information so that they CAN be helpful, this too is bad?"

2) We assume they know what they are because when signing up for the forums they click a button that says "I agree" in response to a list of instructions that tell them the rules are enforced. So either they lied when clicking that button, or if they really are telling the truth, they do know what all these things are before they posted, or their first posts should be asking where they can find them. Are we supposed to assume our users are liars then, is that your current suggestion?

Your criticisms are all well and good, but honestly, at this point it seems like you're just trying to make things up. I don't see how you can honestly find fault in Chronon's response at all. And while BigBambi wasn't providing the most useful amount of information, it is *extremely* valuable to users to be able to find their own information. I mean the manual link IS on every page. If a user can't find that, or use basic problem solving skills to gather information, it's going to provide more problems later on for them and everyone who has to interact with them here.

[Chronon]

I don't understand your intention in citing that thread.  Do you think that I magically know the answer to every question that is asked?  I posted some follow up questions that have to do with the installation instructions for that target.  And I have absolutely no problem with another user jumping in with an answer.  I began as simply another user, like anyone else here.

What is your goal here?

[zajacattack]

My goal is to prove that, unlike first shone, average users can be helpful if they are given a chance to contribute, yet they are not given this opportunity in the New Ports thread.
Also, I'm trying to show how the current rules are being abused by the mods as an excuse to correct everyone who doesn't meet their standards.
Finally, Llorean, having an I Agree button does nothing. Do you honestly think that users read the TOS when they register? If they did, would we be in need of all of the corrections by mods?

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13802.0
Another great example of correction and no help.

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13697.0
I see a bold statement here from Llorean that seems to imply that most people make mistakes by not listening or reading when this is not the case. It also seems to imply that the mods are always right, and the average users are always messing up 'cause they don't listen.

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13710.0
A good example by Febs, Here, Febs posted a link to the place in the manual and ended up being very helpful. Unfortunately, this seldom occurs as the classic response is, "Read the manual."

[Llorean]

1) The questions wasn't about Rockbox. These are the Rockbox forums. What exactly is so confusing about that?

2) Every time someone has damaged their e200 while attempting to install Rockbox, that I have been involved with, one of those two cases has been true. Have you read every interaction I've had with e200 users, and can you prove this statement false? Because that's ALL I said, despite how you've chosen to interpret it.

3) Yes, it may be better to link directly in the manual.  This is debatable: If a user never learns how to find things in the manual themselves, are they more or less likely to be able to search it effectively next time?

And finally: Not reading it is NOT my problem. You claim that we shouldn't enforce the rules because people don't read them? Would it be a problem if nobody ever responded to posts because they just didn't read them?

If something is written, and you agree to it, you are responsible for the fact that you clicked that button. You chose to do it. And if you CHOSE to ignore the text before it, that's YOUR choice, and YOUR problem, not mine frankly. I can't make you read it, but I will assume that you did, and treat you as a responsible adult who takes his word seriously. If you don't believe in taking responsibility for what you do, that's fine. But you seem to be trying to claim that the forum mods are irresponsible, yet at the same time think it's perfectly justified for every non-mod member to be so?

[zajacattack]

1) What is so hard about taking a little time to point the user in the right direction(s) rather than just telling him that he shouldn't post here?

2) Your personal experience does not justify you in making that assumption. Perhaps the directions are wrong. For example, in the e200R BL patching section of the wiki, it never addresses what to do if you are NOT prompted to install drivers when connecting in manufacturing mode (which is actually what happens on mine specifically and others computers). Can you blame the user for that? Is it his misreading that is causing that problem?

3) An excellent point. Then, why not start a sticky that explains how to effectively search and point the user to that? Directing someone who is lost is better than just telling him he is lost, wouldn't you say?

4) No, it is unacceptable for one to be irresponsible. However, ASSUMING one is or will be responsible is a problem. ASSUMING one has read the TOS and/or guidelines is a bad idea. ASSUMING leads to unnecessary confusion and scolding by the mods. Also, the mods are sometimes hypocritical. It is OK to say BL (for bootloader), OF (original firmware), mods (moderators), admins (administrators), etc., but when someone says "thx" or "u" or "4", it's the end of the world because they're "breaking the TOS."

[saratoga]

My goal is to prove that, unlike first shone, average users can be helpful if they are given a chance to contribute, yet they are not given this opportunity in the New Ports thread.

You're arguably the most obnoxious and consistently irrelevant poster in that forum though.  It'd be one thing if you'd had a few bad posts, but by my count, I ended up deleting something like 30-40 of your posts over the span of months, mostly because they just asked something that had already been explained, didn't ask or say anything, or just plain didn't make sense.  Seems to me the problem is you posting in that forum, not us deleting your posts.   I'm sorry you don't like it, but deleting contentless posts keeps threads from becoming unreadable.  

Also, I'm trying to show how the current rules are being abused by the mods as an excuse to correct everyone who doesn't meet their standards.

How is correcting things that don't meet commonly agreed on standards abuse?  Seems like the opposite to me.