Support and General Use > Hardware
Free/Open digital portable audio player
casainho:
--- Quote from: saratoga on November 11, 2007, 10:45:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: casainho on November 11, 2007, 01:30:19 PM ---But we could win somethings with this player tailored by us - for example, have all hardware working and perfect rockbox port, quick and easily done!!
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Yes but because you've moved the complexity from software development to hardware development. A better approach would be to simply start a port to an mp3 player that uses mostly documented hardware.
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I think you didn't understand my point. I think that we should have simple hardware, as company's try to do, to have cheap hardware. When I said have all hardware working, because If we design the system so we know how It works!!
--- Quote from: saratoga on November 11, 2007, 10:45:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: casainho on November 11, 2007, 01:30:19 PM ---Ok, I understand, I read somewhere in site that Rockbox should be made as application, maybe because that are portable devices like phones that could run RB. Anyway, its possible to made a native port of RB for AVR32 since there are a free software GCC-AVR32 for him - thanks Atmel ;-) :-)
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Yes but it would probably not work as well as players using an established arch like ARM.
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Why do you say that?? - The RB works with Assembly and GCC-ARM, right? AVR32 works with assembly and GCC-AVR32 - so It's the same. The advantage, is that for buy a portal player as Sansa uses we can't get one in units but for AVR32 we can get one unit for $20 and all the information about It and Free Software tools for build and debug!
--- Quote from: saratoga on November 11, 2007, 10:45:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: casainho on November 11, 2007, 01:30:19 PM ---What I am trying to say is that now we can have a lot of portable digital music player made in software, because now we have fast and powerful processors, not like in the past that should have also MP3 IC decoders and USB ICs.
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This is true of many (most?) of the hardware platforms rockbox already runs on. If this is what you're trying to say, then my response would be that you should buy a Sansa and develop for that.
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Eheh - I have a Sansa and I am very happy ;-) :-) But Sansa e200 can be discontinued or company can change firmware/hardware and not be possible to make RB working, as It don't work on others hardware, like Zune.
Okok, to resume: Now we can buy cheap powerful processors in single units with almost all peripherals included like DAC and USB, we can make an cheap and open player maybe by us, for us, and not have the need to make reverse engineering of hardware and software of players in market.
Bagder:
--- Quote from: casainho on November 12, 2007, 03:55:58 AM ---Why do you say that?? - The RB works with Assembly and GCC-ARM, right? AVR32 works with assembly and GCC-AVR32 - so It's the same. The advantage, is that for buy a portal player as Sansa uses we can't get one in units but for AVR32 we can get one unit for $20 and all the information about It and Free Software tools for build and debug!
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Ok, let's assume you go with an Atmel AVR (although I would rather say you should go with an Atmel ARM (if you must use Atmel) just because it would mean less work).
How on earth are you going to manage to create a small, usable and working device with a fine color LCD, storage space and buttons for 20 USD?
In fact, check how ridiculously low the Sansa e200 series is priced these days and when you start looking at the cost of flashes, of LCDs, of boxing etc it really is very very hard to come even close to their prices until you have quantities similar to theirs.
So, the real-world facts are that when you build your own player, it will be better documented sure, but it will be MUCH more expensive and most likely it will also be bulkier and uglier and we'd have to spend a life-time fixing hw-related bugs.
I think you're overlooking all the problems with HW-design and HW-development and a lot of other things that enter the scene when you start making physical devices.
But please, don't let all of us negative whiners stand in your way. Please prove us wrong. Make a 20 USD open device and we will absolutely love you! I hereby promise to buy more than one of those units.
JeoL:
I can understand that RB developers do not want to invest time in developing a player with open hardware, but I don't see why every attempt to do should be shot down it it's cradle. Â :-\
It will probably be expensive relatively to mass-produced units yes, but I think it's doable if you aim for making a niche product for enthusiasts. A first step would be to gather those with knowledge of developing hardware, and start drawing schematics, settle for a pcb design and start investigating how expensive things will be (or whatever... I dont know! ^_^)
A (quick?), easy, lazy and expensive solution might be to use the openmoko phone, and start to work on "rockbox as an application". But then you'd also have a phone. Anyways, their mailing lists could be a place to ask for advice and information on how to best prepare a deal like theirs with FIC.
Just my 0.02 €
Edit: Eh, Bagder beat me to writing first positive post =)
casainho:
--- Quote from: JeoL on November 12, 2007, 06:08:44 AM ---I can understand that RB developers do not want to invest time in developing a player with open hardware, but I don't see why every attempt to do should be shot down it it's cradle. :-\
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I imagine that are developers in RB that works with hardware, that understand hardware.
--- Quote from: JeoL on November 12, 2007, 06:08:44 AM ---A first step would be to gather those with knowledge of developing hardware, and start drawing schematics, settle for a pcb design and start investigating how expensive things will be (or whatever... I dont know! ^_^)
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We can take ideas or direct copy hardware parts from players that we already know. There is Open DSPdap for that, for example.
I agree with Bagder but Sansa and others simple audio players (not mention video players) are getting really cheap and that MUCH more expensive means a relative total difference, I paid 100 euros for my Sansa and I would pay 200 euros for an Open audio player that work with RB.
But maybe this is not the right place for looking at an Open hardware audio player. I started talking with guy at DSPdap, maybe It will be easy to work together with some group of people that is already working on that kind of hardware. But I think that hardware should support RB!! ;-) :-)
Another option could be RB give some space to people that likes hardware to start build that player, for enthusiasts. There are a lot of knowledge about hardware here in RockBox that could be used!
Bagder:
--- Quote ---I paid 100 euros for my Sansa and I would pay 200 euros for an Open audio player that work with RB.
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200 Euros could possibly be the price you'd sell these units for once you have developed something more or less stable, but you'll have to spend a lot more over time while developing this and someone is going to have to put up a lot of money for initial investments for design, packaging, PCB, producing and more. That's why open source HW is much harder. You need real money to pay for all the physical stuff that need to be put together and shipped. Spare time and skills are not enough.
--- Quote ---But maybe this is not the right place for looking at an Open hardware audio player. I started talking with guy at DSPdap, maybe It will be easy to work together with some group of people that is already working on that kind of hardware. But I think that hardware should support RB!! ;-) :-)
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Right, Rockbox is a software project and we're mostly software guys here (even if many of the guys understand and work a good deal with electronics and hw as well). To get a good team of HW designers to join up, you surely will need to hunt elsewhere (too).
But indeed, I'm sure lots of Rockbox hackers will assist with advice and ideas on what to put in such an open player... A first idea would be to not use any DSP! ;-)
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