Sansa e200/e200R: Keymap change.

[ONE_HUMAN]

Obviously it is too late now to complain  

Anyway. I liked the previous keymap better, because I am not a fan of holding buttons to get actions. It slows things down.
This means another small patch in my personal build to revert this change. If anyone is interested, I can put it on flyspray. But I don't think it's needed, a diff can be obtained through svn.

I don't like this change, in fact, I hate it.  I use the Power/Menu button a lot and in one-handed use, granted for a righty, it's much easier on the Sansa to press the Power/Menu button instead of the Down button for the Menu -- 1) because it's in a better location (further to the left and away from the ring), and 2) because it sits up higher (not as flush with the player surface).  Unfortunately one of the drawbacks on the Sansa is the buttons around the ring aren't as easy to use as they could be, but I know that isn't Rockbox's fault.

Sure, go ahead and post your patch.  Like you, I'm hesitant to use any future build without being able to revert back to the original button mapping.  And we aren't alone.  I'm sure many people who aren't capable of compiling their own patched build would benefit from your patch.

[Llorean]

If he were to post it as a patch, people would still need to compile their own builds to use it, making basically your entire reasoning behind your suggestion that he do so pointless.

[ONE_HUMAN]

Yes, sorry.  I should have said they wouldn't have to develop the patch, only include it in their own custom compiled build.  And who knows, perhaps someone will make it available as an already compiled custom build as we've seen with some other custom builds.  So, not so pointless really.  As soon as I posted my last post, I knew I could count on you to make the comment you made.  Figured I'd just sit back and wait for it.

[Llorean]

You may not be aware of this, but because of the way SVN history works, anyone who can compile their own build has access to the patch (or rather an easier to use and maintain equivalent) already. All they have to do is revert that one file to the revision before the one where the change was made, and anyone who can compile their own build can either do this already, or will be able to understand when told the single command they'll need to type to do this.

So again, please don't encourage people to break the rules, we've had this discussion before. If you think a rule is changed, suggest appropriate changes, but until it is, don't break it or encourage people to.

[michael.conner]

Thanks for committing this.  I used to use a Gigabeat and never got quite used to the Sansa's old key mapping.

[P.Opus]

I guess I'll put in my .02 on this....

.01  Rockbox is awesome, and quite frankly I find it pretty ridiculous that someone would come into here and "demand" changes and otherwise be disrespectful when they are more than free to uninstall Rockbox if they are not satisfied.

.02 I know that this "bug" has been put into the system.  As has been mentioned before, the power button does not work when using an external power supply.  This affects playback in that when plugged into a charger, you can't stop playback.  You have to unplug the Sansa to "stop" playback.

[terrence1019]

ONE_HUMAN is right about certain points. The attitude of some Rockbox devs can be snobbish. You can hear it in the tone of their posts. I think while they're working on developing Rockbox, they can work on developing the attitudes at the same time.

Rockbox is a cool product, and thank God its free. But the excess baggage of snobbish attitudes is unwarranted.

But I have found a few good devs who have cool attitudes: like jdgordon, Badger, and MikeSevakis, and a few others I'm not ashamed to name.

But I do have a proposition: since Rockbox is all about customization and comfort, why don't you add an option for Keymap in the System settings?

There can be two system configuration options: Platform Specific Keymap, OR Multi-platform Keymap. By offering variety, as Rockbox has faithfully always done, this could end a lot of quarreling.

Anyways, this is just a proposition.

I anticipate the response.  8-)

[terrence1019]

If find it interesting to use the mouse as an example of keymapping.

One reason is that with a mouse, they all more or less designed to be consistent across all PC platforms. This is Universal Compatibility.

On the other hand, MP3 players are not like this. I don't pick up an iPod, or a Gigabeat, and expect the same keymapping to be consistent . These players were designed to be unique and variable, and to generate a following for each different brand.

Also, with a mouse, their is the option in the PC settings to configure it for right hand or left hand users. This can be used to support my idea of Platform specific and Multi-platform keymaps settings.

But personally.... I like the new keymaps. Too cool (though some bugs need to be worked out). But I think we should all consider oppisitions to change, just as you consider the blind when changing the keymap. They are a voice too.

Besides: always expect opposition. I knew a lot of people were going to be annoyed with the change.

[AlexP]

Please do not double post, this is in the posting guidelines you agree to when you signed up.

The example with the mouse fits perfectly with setting it up to be right or left handed.  Once I know which button is the "left" click, I know it will function as "left" click in all places.  Likewise once I know which button on an mp3 player functions as 'menu' in rockbox, I know it will do what I expect in all screens.  The point is, when you pick up an iPod or a gigabeat, they are completely different, agreed.  However that changes when you install rockbox, now they are just  different hardware running the same operating system.

Think of it this way - I have a Mac running OS X and a PC running Windows.  They work differently.  However if I install Windows on the Mac I expect them to work the same way except for when hardware differences make this impossible.  If the hardware allows it, they should function the same.

ONE_HUMAN is right about certain points. The attitude of some Rockbox devs can be snobbish. You can hear it in the tone of their posts. I think while they're working on developing Rockbox, they can work on developing the attitudes at the same time.

Rockbox is a cool product, and thank God its free. But the excess baggage of snobbish attitudes is unwarranted.

This is probably true - but some users could also do with some attitude work.  It goes both ways.  We do our best to provide unpaid, voluntary support in these forums, and it gets frustrating to have to answer the same questions repeatedly just because people don't read instructions properly or search at all.  It is also the same when a discussion such as this develops when we have essentially the same arguments being repeated over and over, and if you read some of the user posts (I'm naming no names), they have been hostile and abrasive from the start.  You are right, I (I wish to speak for no others here) can get frustrated and when this shows I am sorry (it certainly isn't snobbery of any kind).  However, there are some people who think it is their god-given right to be correct and get what they want, and they also need to change their attitudes.

But I do have a proposition: since Rockbox is all about customization and comfort, why don't you add an option for Keymap in the System settings?

There can be two system configuration options: Platform Specific Keymap, OR Multi-platform Keymap. By offering variety, as Rockbox has faithfully always done, this could end a lot of quarreling.

This just isn't going to happen, it would be a support nightmare.  We have enough people who can't manage to read the manual to find out what the correct keys are when they are fixed, imagine what would happen if they could accidently change them.  You can of course alter the keys yourself in the source (and it is a very easy area to change).

Besides: always expect opposition. I knew a lot of people were going to be annoyed with the change.

Yep, we too knew there would be a few who don't like it, and that is fine, so long as they remain civil.

[scorche]

This has gotten way out of hand and has nothing to do with this thread.  In order to end this, I shall be blunt and to the point.  None of this should be interpreted as "rude", as there is no emotion inserted into this text.

Lets sum things up a bit.  This forum is provided so that we can offer free support for our free firmware.  We ask nothing of you except that you respect our rules and us and that you enjoy Rockbox.  If you do not wish to respect our rules, then you are free to not post here.  If are of the impression that some members of the community may be rude, then don't ask for their freely offered assistance.

There will be no more of this talk in this topic.  I mean this.  NONE.  If you have issues with any of our rules, you are free to start a new topic about this if you are willing to be civil about it and not hurl insults or offensive statements.  If you have an issue with a person, PM them about it and be civil.  Just because it is private, does not mean you can be even more offensive and threaten them.

This thread of conversation is over.  I shall be most unhappy if I see more of this in here.

[MarcGuay]

Good morning folks,

I noticed a few inconsistencies with the new Sansa e200 keymapping the other day and posted a flyspray here: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8169.  Anybody have any thoughts on this?  Unsure what the better place to discuss something like this is, but I get the feeling more people read the forums than check the tracker.

Bye now,
Marc

----

Hi Paul,

I noticed you made some changes but it still seems to be like a few things are a bit off:

- The power button in the radio screen now does nothing at all.  Is it possible to have it turn off the radio and return to the main menu or does the radio only get turned "off" by muting or playing sound files?  (And if so, how does that affect the voicing of menus?)

- In the recording screen the context menu is still accessed via the "main menu"/down button.  

Dog ciao,
Marc

[bascule]

The Sansa "power/menu" button is better or easier to use as the Rockbox "menu" button instead of the "down" button because:

1) Ergonomic location --  it's in a much better position for a right-handed person because of where the thumb naturally wants to sit when holding the player.

Have you tried using the player upside-down? Settings > General Settings > Display > LCD Settings > Upside Down

I use my Sansa like this for probably the same reasons you dislike the new keymap (uncomfortable ergonomics) and I find it works really well. It's always worth a try...

[Febs]

Because I use the "menu" button quite a bit, I'd prefer it to be in a location that is easy to use.  I don't know how to say it any better than that.  And I'm not the only one saying it.  Alas, it seems to be falling on deaf ears.  I dislike this keymapping change enough that I'm continuing to use an old build of Rockbox.  That should say something.

Yes.  It says that some people don't like the keymap.  The same is true of EVERY keymap decision that has ever been made on this project.   It is literally impossible to make button assignments that meet with unanimous approval and so that is not our goal.  Our goal is to make button decisions that make sense in the context of using Rockbox on a particular platform and where possible with consistency from platform to platform.

Now, if I could ever get my wife to let me use our Sansa for a while, I could see what I think of this change ...  

[MarcGuay]

Apparently I'm the only one who still thinks the keymap is an interesting subject.  On the recording screen, the context menu is still out of sync with the rest of the interface.  The old down-menu button = context menu is still in effect; it should be changed to a long-select.  

I think that whole screen needs to be redone actually because the scroll wheel acting as a menu control instead of a increment-slider (like the volume in the WPS) for the Volume and Gain is really awkward.  Anyway, not as interesting as watching goats butt heads I suppose...

Peach,
Marc

[Llorean]

That's the "Menu" for the Radio part of the code, not really the "Context Menu", and having it on the button that brings up the main menu elsewhere is actually in line with the way Rockbox expects to work, at least right now. Personally, I'm not happy with the overall way the Radio screen works either, but I'd rather figure out a general improvement to the radio screen than start introducing further divergences in how it works right now.