Using both FWs - Apple & Rockbox on 1 folder structure

[tomster]

First of all: Decent piece of work!
I almost immediately dumped the original firmware for rockbox. To be exact it took me an estimated 2 Minutes after unpacking the device ;-)

But after getting a new car (with iPod support) I'm sort of stuck with my iPod since the serial protocol seems not to be fully implemented in the latest rockbox builds. And man, I really do love my own folder structure, so dropping rockbox for iTunes is not an option.
What to do?
MediaMonkey seemed to be able to mess with the iTunes DB (up to one of the latest Apple Updates) allowing alternate file locations. But Apple obviously tweaked that out in one of the last FW-updates.
So I was wondering whether someone already came up with a alternative?

One way could be to start a folder structure similar to the iTunes way ( F01,F02,...) in /iPod_Control/iTunes and sym-link the original files (in the rockbox structure) within the "new" iTunes-fake-folders.
Sadly I have no clue on how the iTunes-DB works and don't know how to set up a "dry-run" without messing up my existing structure.
Maybe someone on the forum could come up with a hint...

Greetings from Germany,
TOM

[bluebrother]

One way could be to start a folder structure similar to the iTunes way ( F01,F02,...) in /iPod_Control/iTunes and sym-link the original files (in the rockbox structure) within the "new" iTunes-fake-folders.

FAT doesn't support symlinks.

Unless there is a hacked Apple firmware around that can handle alternative file locations I only see the solution to keep the obfuscated structure generated by Itunes.

Or get the serial device working in Rockbox

[scharkalvin]

If all of your music is properly tagged then rockbox will be able to build a database so you can access your music without using the file structure.  OTOH the ipod firmware expects the itunes database and directory structure.  So if you want to have your cake and also eat it, you must use itunes to add music to the iPod.  You can then boot into rockbox OR the OF at will to play it.  If you want to add non supported file formats (like OGG) they will only play in rockbox, so you can just drop them in your own directory.  The apple OF won't find or play them.

Note that adding tags to the itunes database does NOT put the tags into the media files, you must do that with other software before you add the files to the ipod.  Once the songs are added with itunes the ONLY way rockbox will find them is via the database if the files have the tags set, otherwise you will see logs of entries in the rockbox database!  

[GodEater]

You could try rolling back to a very early version of the Apple firmware for your device and seeing whether MediaMonkey or foodop's method of re-writing the iTunesDB on the device then works.

@scharkalvin: Note - some users don't like the database in Rockbox. Myself included.

[scharkalvin]

Once the songs are added with itunes the ONLY way rockbox will find them is via the database if the files have the tags set, otherwise you will see logs of  entries in the rockbox database!  

I meant  to say you would have lots of !untagged! entries in the rockbox database.
I put "<" and ">" around the untagged and the forum script must have deleted them thinking it was an html tag.  UGGG.

[scharkalvin]

@scharkalvin: Note - some users don't like the database in Rockbox. Myself included.

I guess the choices are to order your music by directory/file names or to use the tags and let the database order them.  The rockbox database doesn't seem too bad to me, except for the profusion of "" entries if you don't check to see that you have all the required tags set before you download the music files.  At least since rockbox targets can be used as external disk drives you can always edit the tags in place.   On the ipod if you want to us both firmwares (since rockbox doesn't support the serial interface for remote control, database searching and metadata reporting), you're stuck with the rockbox database when in rockbox.

Maybe some user config options for the database might be nice (which tags to use, tag order, etc).  

BTW Apple is moving away from the serial interface standard for ipod control and is pushing third party hw developers to use the usb interface instead.  Looks like the ipods (not sure which ones it started with) support a previously undocumented control interface via usb.

[GodEater]

On the ipod if you want to us both firmwares (since rockbox doesn't support the serial interface for remote control, database searching and metadata reporting), you're stuck with the rockbox database when in rockbox.

As was highlighted above, this was not always the case however. If it means that much to tomster, he can revert to an old Apple firmware which will allow use of MediaMonkey or foodop to rebuild the database on the ipod based on whatever file structure he decides to use.

As far as I know, this is STILL possible even with the latest Apple firmware, *provided* you keep your file / folder structure inside ipod_control.

[bluebrother]

I meant  to say you would have lots of !untagged! entries in the rockbox database.
I put "<" and ">" around the untagged and the forum script must have deleted them thinking it was an html tag.

It's not deleted, it's not correctly encoded so the generated page contains a html tag "untagged" which the browser doesn't show. It's a known issue with the forums software ...

But that is going offtopic now

[tomster]

FAT doesn't support symlinks.

OK, that should have put the first coupl'a ounces of concrete around my idea's ankles...

Unless there is a hacked Apple firmware around that can handle alternative file locations I only see the solution to keep the obfuscated structure generated by Itunes.

Naa, I'm not giving up that quick ;-) And besides, the idea with an older firmware DOES have its charm as long as there actually is one?! Not knowing an awful lot about different FW-versions, there's a good chance of my G5.5 iPod Video simply being "too new" for such tweaks.

Or get the serial device working in Rockbox

Got me on that. Did I forget to mention me being more of a Captain Cereal rather than Captain Serial?

As far as I know, this is STILL possible even with the latest Apple firmware, *provided* you keep your file / folder structure inside ipod_control.

Hmm, I actually never tried this. I always assumed that Apple not only requires the files residing in the iPod_Control folder but also being renamed in that cryptic way. But maybe before typing my fingertips to the bone I first should give it a try.

I'm still gasping because of your reply speed.
Thank you again, all of you from
Si Tshermahn

[GodEater]

And besides, the idea with an older firmware DOES have its charm as long as there actually is one?! Not knowing an awful lot about different FW-versions, there's a good chance of my G5.5 iPod Video simply being "too new" for such tweaks.

http://www.felixbruns.de/iPod/firmware/

[tomster]

How cool is that?! Awesome page (also Tshermahn, by the way ;-)

Though there's only 1 FW-Image for G5.5 assuming it being the one I run (iPod resides in USB-Town, right on Bedroom Lane at the moment). So I guess I was awfully right on my assumption that there is no "old" FW- Bummer.
OK, Plan B. Trying my own structure in iPod_Control. Keep your fingers crossed ;-)

[GodEater]

It's possible that a 5G firmware *might* work...

[scharkalvin]

Well I think I see a calling here.
I'm going to (eventually) dig though the ipod linux documentation and their kernel sources and see if I can find the serial interface drivers and figure out how to make this work in rockbox.  (good place to put such a hack might be to add a new function in the system/debug menu).  I have the documentation on the apple serial interface and a test bed (Niles GXR2 iPod control card.)  Might be a fun challenge to get rockbox to listen to an ipod remote control.   Please nobody bug me about how this is coming along (I tend to have lonnng lapses between fits of activity) but I might post questions here about how to hack rockbox.

[Chronon]

I wish you the best of luck, scharkalvin.  A wiki page to document any progress would be a good idea, I think.

[scharkalvin]

Well if I get past the research phase, I'll be back asking how to gain access to a wiki page.