[SORTED] 30Gb Video iPods are not all 5th Gen iPods & some crashes & iPodLinux

[Peacepunk]

Warning: I was wrong, and the issue is now sorted. I you are experiencing RockBox lockups @ boot stage, please be sure to READ THE FULL thread before doing something stupid

Hi Community

I had a chill of panic two days ago, when for some reason an update failed (rockbox locked @ logo stage) & the thing didn't reboot in Apple mode ("no legacyOS found").

I may have posted the history of this in the wrong place though:
http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13356.0 - feel free to move it to "apple install/remove" if needed

Having to go for a full backup, I noticed two things:
- the apple bootloader firmware that I needed was the 5.5th Gen Firmware 25.6.2.1 from iPod_25.1.2.1.ipsw zip file obtained through http://www.felixbruns.de/iPod/firmware/ This was the sole firmware to actually reflash & boot the apple-iPod mode, the two other 5th Gen failed.

Note: Apple calls 5.5th Gen "Late 2006 5th Gen"

- Booting the RockBox firmware after a fresh install of ipodpatcher (the new version AFAIK) & recommended 30Gb Video firmware failed again @ RB logo stage, while the 60/80Gb firmware booted OK:
http://build.rockbox.org/dist/build-ipodvideo64mb/rockbox.zip
I understand RB distinguishes between 32 and 64Mb models (30Gb vs 60/80), it seems to make sense but failed for me.


This makes me think that some info on the RB website could mislead "Late 2006 and after" 30Gb Video owners:
http://build.rockbox.org/ and http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtml
because they only distinguish between 30 and 60/80 devices rather than 5th & 5.5th Gen ones.

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DeviceChart
Does not yet provide any distinction between Video models, while it would be the right place to help people find out which generation they are using, since it is not just capacity-based [See Serial Numbers at bottom of post].

&& Last but most confusing, about the new rbutilqt tool:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxUtilityQt
says that rbutil will confuse 5th and 5.5th gen devices, but that "it is safe" - where I believe I had an experience showing it probably isn't (maybe because of recent changes in the 5th gen code?).

[the RockBox install manual does provide a warning about possible issues though, but still only distinguishing between 30 and 60/80 devices, not 5th - 5.5th Generations]
http://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-ipodvideo/rockbox-buildch2.html#x4-60002
If I was pushy and right in my assumptions, I'd add that the Manual should insist on 30Gb 5.5th gen users _not_ to use rbutils or to select 60/80model, and, best of all, remind people how to find out which generation of device they own.

This is only from a single experience with a single device where manual install worked but rbutils did not, over a Fedora7 box, an "empty" apple firmware (never been used ever).

Feel free to bark at me if I am wrong, I'd be happy to understand what happened to my device (well, I tried to install the wrong firmware after all, no wonder I got into trouble), and help people not to fall into the same mistake.

Cheers

Jean-Philippe

PS Further infos / discussions on 5th & 5.5th Gen here:
http://ipodlinux.org/Generations
http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=10872.msg82380#msg82380
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61688

iPod (5th generation late 2006) (also known as iPod with video or Fifth Generation iPod)
You can distinguish the iPod (5th generation late 2006) from the original iPod (5th generation) by the last three digits of the serial number. The iPod (5th generation late 2006) serial number's last three digits will be one of the following: V9K, V9P, V9M, V9R, V9L, V9N, V9Q, V9S, WU9, WUA, WUB, WUC, and X3N. The Fifth Generation U2 Special Edition iPod (30 GB Late 2006) serial number's last three digits are W9G.

You'll notice here from apple definitions that they all share the 1.2.1 software version:

iPod (5th generation late 2006) (30 GB or 80 GB) 2006-09 Click Wheel 30 GB or 80 GB soft 1.2.1
iPod (5th generation) (60 GB) 2005-10 Click Wheel 60 GB soft 1.2.1
iPod (5th generation ) (30 GB) 2005-10 Click Wheel 30 GB soft 1.2.1

[GodEater]

Having to go for a full backup, I noticed two things:
- the apple bootloader firmware that I needed was the 5.5th Gen Firmware 25.6.2.1 from iPod_25.1.2.1.ipsw zip file obtained through http://www.felixbruns.de/iPod/firmware/ This was the sole firmware to actually reflash & boot the apple-iPod mode, the two other 5th Gen failed.

Yes this is known.

- Booting the RockBox firmware after a fresh install of ipodpatcher (the new version AFAIK) & recommended 30Gb Video firmware failed again @ RB logo stage, while the 60/80Gb firmware booted OK:
http://build.rockbox.org/dist/build-ipodvideo64mb/rockbox.zip

This is extremely unusual behaviour, not what is expected at all. The *only* difference between the 30GB and 60/80GB builds is the amount of memory they allocate on the device. Now - I would expect your device to boot using both builds - but I would expect that the 60/80GB build would be extremely unstable for you, since it'll try to use memory that, as far as we know, just isn't installed in a 30GB video ipod.

I understand RB distinguishes between 32 and 64Mb models (30Gb vs 60/80), it seems to make sense but failed for me.

No - it doesn't distinguish between them at all - that's why there are two builds. It requires the *user* to do the distinguishing.

This makes me think that some info on the RB website could mislead "Late 2006 and after" 30Gb Video owners:
http://build.rockbox.org/ and http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtml
because they only distinguish between 30 and 60/80 devices rather than 5th & 5.5th Gen ones.

But as far as we know - this is the only distinction we require to make - as the only difference is in the amount of memory.

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DeviceChart
Does not yet provide any distinction between Video models, while it would be the right place to help people find out which generation they are using, since it is not just capacity-based

This is because people shouldn't need to know.

Last but most confusing, about the new rbutilqt tool:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxUtilityQt
says that rbutil will confuse 5th and 5.5th gen devices, but that "it is safe" - where I believe I had an experience showing it probably isn't (maybe because of recent changes in the 5th gen code?).

No - you've experienced something odd with your 30GB build. Could you let us know which revision(s) you've tried and had this issue with? The 60/80GB will not be stable on your ipod, and it is therefore not "safe" to install on a 30GB build. The reverse is not true however, a build for a 30GB video will work on a 60/80GB ipod, since the only difference is that the build is not allocating all available memory.

If I was pushy and right in my assumptions, I'd add that the Manual should insist on 30Gb 5.5th gen users _not_ to use rbutils or to select 60/80model

Absolutely not - this is completely the wrong thing to say to end users. As stated above - the 60/80GB build WILL NOT WORK PROPERLY on a 30GB video ipod. It doesn't matter which generation it is.

[Peacepunk]

Hi, and first of all thanks.

All of the above reply makes complete sense to me - only 32/64 memory models should be differentiated, and not by much then... You surely noticed my post was full of "if I'm not wrong" & such...

I did a full re-install, 30Gb-by-the-book, that built r15258 fine on my device.
Crashed ones started @ 15219 up to 15223 where I switched to 64megs version, mis-leaded by the 5.5th Gen info I "discovered" about this machine.

My apologies for wasting your time, as stated @ the beginning "a chill of panic" since nevertheless I killed the apple software one way or another & even with a functional apple iPod, Rockbox r15223 did not boot.

Feel free to completely delete this post, as not to induce panic-ridden readers to fall in the same trap. [Or keep it like that, for other imaginative readers who'd think 5th & 5.5th gen ought to be different.]

Bye, I am toying with iPodLinux right now, as if addicted to those chills!
...Failed once already   rbutilsqt got it back just fine...

[GodEater]

It's not really a waste of anyone's time. If you're having an issue, it's in everyone's best interests to sort it out - and if it's done in public then others can benefit from the work that's already been done (if they ever bother to search the forums, and so many people don't )

So are you saying your iPod is now running a 32MB build successfully ?

[Peacepunk]

32mb build indeed, with both a sense of shame & relief on my part.

Thanks again, we've been happily on RB since our previous iPod... a 5th gen 30Gb, the one before Sept 2006 & since we don't use macs or windows, it's real great.

Jean-Philippe

[Peacepunk]

Hi there.

I've had the crash again, which I believe I sorted by removing _all_ files at the .rockbox root but for rockbox.ipod and ropckbox-info (and the folders). I sure lost all my settings, but it eventually did uncrashed the thing. It looks again as a mere groundless opinion of me that doesn't make sense,

[One must notice, though, that I toyed with a self-build SVN version of ipodloader2 setup that may have got in the way, and generated the first crash of rockbox. Yes, I intend to have ipodlinux somewhere alongside RB that I can't quit because of all my .ogg & flac music]


[edit/update] --same build with ipodlinux bootloader2 works fine -- [edit/update]

Cheers community

Jean-Philippe
Happily running 15282 now

[GodEater]

There have been issues in the past with Loader2 not quite correctly initialising the COP on iPods causing this sort of behaviour - and what with the recent introduction of proper dual processor handling - that might be the issue again.

Why not use the Rockbox bootloader instead ? Then you can be sure this isn't the issue.

[Chronon]

The Rockbox bootloader will also load iPodLinux, though this feature does not seem to be very well documented at the moment.  However, I recall that holding down Play during the boot-up sequence will cause the Rockbox bootloader to load a properly named iPL kernel.  A forum search turned up this corroborating post from Linuxstb:

If you hold PLAY whilst booting, the Rockbox bootloader looks for a file called linux.bin in the root of your FAT32 partition.

[Peacepunk]

Why not use the Rockbox bootloader instead ? Then you can be sure this isn't the issue.

That's how I revived Rockbox - Failing a proper install of IPL's bootloader2 that returned "bat FAT superblock" error @ start-up time & did not recognize Rockbox or ipodlinux, I went the hard way, downloaded the uClinux toolchain, compiled a SVN version of bootloader2 & installed it over a freshly iTune-restored, empty device.

I did take these steps even before setting up IPL since I suspect the Bat Block issue to be linked with sfdisk or mtools working on the 'Pod HDD. In order to test that I had a sane loader, I first blanked it with iTune, tested apple firmware; then installed  the IPL's loader into place & end up with a locked RB firmware but a functional Apple one. So, backing of I committed a full "rockbox" install which worked fine, and only AFTER did I threw the ipodloader thingy as booter... Pfew.

And the reason why not using RB as a loader for IPL is that it's rather "hard" to grab the right moment to push Play to get into Linux mode, that my post on IPL forums regarding how to set up IPL without a bootloader did not raised much interest, and even with an ext2 partition featuring all the needed stuff I actually never succeeded in launching IPL from RB bootloader - That I suspect, is because of me, not RB or IPL...

Anybody with day-to-day experience over IPL from RB, please feel free to join...

http://ipodlinux.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=28343

On my way, on my way. If I ever got this 5.5th gen triple-booting I'll commit myself to a nice Wiki page

Bye; heading for a Partitionless IPL install now, just to test the kernel against the bootloader before re-formatting again. and probably again and again.



Jean-Philippe

[GodEater]

I beg to differ. It's easy to get the timing right. Just hold play as soon as you start booting. Simple as that.

[Peacepunk]

Will try, and get back, as soon as I have the partitionless IPL up and running.

Cheers

[GodEater]

Will try, and get back, as soon as I have the partitionless IPL up and running.

Cheers

Partitionless ?

[Peacepunk]

Yeah, before I commit to any more (destructive) toying with IPL standard setup, I will try this one, as a further step forward in getting a standard install of IPL:

http://ipodlinux.org/Installation:_Winpod_without_datacorruption

[Peacepunk]

Got it, triple boot, albeit in partitionless mode for now. Welcome to the world of linux: One thing in common with any other I got: so slow to boot!

RB users temted by a VERY simple way to get it working have to download this SINGLE file:
http://de.dataghost.com/ipl/expinstaller/ipl-nopartitioning-1.1-20070311.tar.bz2,
extract it to the root of the FAT partition of their device, and hold "PLAY" as soon as the little apple appears on their screen to switch Rockbox into IpodLinux. I'll start a new thread soon, so no need to ask questions or reply here on the specifics of IPL - from - Rockbox bootloader.

Cheers community.

Jean-Philippe, Cambodia; 1.30-some-AM here, and I got a real lot of stuff on the workbench tomorrow, so it's:

Peacepunk out!

[Llorean]

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