Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root

[fml2]

That's why I asked for a reason. I thought: Hey, someone resurrected the long decided issue YET AGAIN, maybe they actually have a real reason.

Well, for those users (and on those players) this is a reason. I think this depends on the DAP. On some devices, all buttons are accessible equally easy. But on some (e.g. H120) they are not. You have to use another finger. And to do that, you have to place the dap in another way in your hand. And if you're not careful enough you could even drop the dap. Isn't that a reason?

I agree that this feature might not be necessary on all devices. But on some it would.

There is another aspect (of a psychological nature) in this issue IMHO. It's been discussed long and the answer of the devs has always been the same, i.e. "we don't want/need it." If they say now "ok, we might still need it", wouldn't that be sort of like of defamation or proving one having been stubborn? OTOH if that's just a question of a rational reason, isn't the one I named in this post strong enough (not letting the DAP fall down)?

[Llorean]

Firstly I have an H120. It was my first Rockboxable DAP, and I've never felt that the play button was an inconvenience. So, it's personal preference, and not merely an aspect of DAP design, so please don't try to play that card. I have no problem reaching the play button with the index finger on my right hand while using the thumb to navigate the stick. Or, if using my left hand it requires a slight shift behind the player but my index finger still wraps around without problem. So while it is still an issue of little more than personal preference for this feature versus practical concerns on the case of the core developers.

Second, you haven't addressed the Core Devs' primary concerns. In fact, you just showed that you don't even know what they are. "we don't want/need it." is not the most commonly stated reason by the core devs.

As I said, I would like to see a NEW argument in favour of this, but repeating things that have already been said is just going to irritate those who've said it will not happen any more. Your argument is the same "It's convenient." So what? "It's convenient" vs "It's redundant, can add hassle for blind users, and further increases an already increasingly oversized binary" makes the choice pretty easy.

[fml2]

I have no problem reaching the play button with the index finger on my right hand while using the thumb to navigate the stick.

Well, other people might have other experience.

So what? "It's convenient" vs "It's redundant, can add hassle for blind users, and further increases an already increasingly oversized binary" makes the choice pretty easy.

Well, RB is all about convenience, no? And the binary size is an issue only for a minority of devices. On that devices, the feature could be #deffed out. (I also mean the version for H120 which is booted from EEPROM or smth. -- the binary size there is also limited.) And if it would require an extra LEFT press for going from the file browser to WPS (see my post a couple of posts before) that wouldn't also confuse visually impaired users.

Having said this I'd like to stress that all I can do (and do!) is humbly ask for a feature or tell my opinion. Ant that I've been and am a grateful RB user.

[Llorean]

Firstly, "smth" is not a real word. Follow the forum rules.

Secondly, Rockbox should never work differently on multiple targets unless there's an exceptionally good reason to. The fact that people want a slightly more convenient button press hardly qualifies. As for the "They have to already be in the root" issue: What if a blind user IS already in the root, but not aware of it. Right now left will reliably take you to the same place whether you hold it, or just tap it many many times. With your method, it becomes vastly less consistent and reliable.

Rockbox is not "all about convenience." It's mostly about a powerful cross-hardware MP3 player firmware. And even if it were about convenience, your feature is *vastly* more inconvenient for some users than I imagine a slight shift for a button press is for you. Even I rely on the root being the final location from left presses.

As I said: Give me *new* reasons, rather than rehashing the old ones.

I'm sorely tempted to simply lock this thread with a statement that the idea is dead until such time as someone can actually address it from a new angle. You've not actually addressed any of the old objections, you've just said that in your opinion they don't matter.

[LinusN]

I can agree with the convenience argument on the H100 series. I wouldn't care all that much if we did add that feature.

The main arguments against it would be

1) It is not good for blind navigation (solved by making it a non-default setting)

2) It breaks the overall design of the GUI hierarchy (Left means "leave this level", while the browser actually it the top level)

3) It would waste code space. (albeit very little)

as for (2), we are discussing changing the hierarchy to be more flat. Then the navigation will be different.

I'm undecided about this...

just my $0.02

[fml2]

Firstly, "smth" is not a real word. Follow the forum rules.

Sorry for that.

What if a blind user IS already in the root, but not aware of it. Right now left will reliably take you to the same place whether you hold it, or just tap it many many times. With your method, it becomes vastly less consistent and reliable.

Those who couldn't tolerate non-reliability in this (e.g. blind users) would just disable the feature (as Linus said). Which would disabled by default anyway.

[Llorean]

I guess I just don't understand why people see "convenience" being so much more important than consistency.

It's only really useful for *some* people, and only on a *few* of the targets, and yet you act like the feature is actually somehow important enough that either the cross-platform consistency should be sacrificed, or decrease the odds of getting Rombox back into shape.

Even if it's made optional, and everyone agrees on a proper default action for when music isn't playing (Resume, like Play, or do nothing since the WPS doesn't exist while music is stopped?) and even if the whole hierarchy of Rockbox is redesigned to allow for the concept, those still need to be addressed clearly.

The Archos Recorder is a bit of an old target, but while it's still supported, every effort should be made to keep it in line with the rest of Rockbox. And even on targets where binary size isn't strictly limited, it's still important in terms of audio buffer, so features should still be considered on a "are they worth the size they add" basis.

[LinusN]

I guess only the developers and those who own several DAPs care about cross-platform consistency.

As for Rombox, I think only (the fewer and fewer) owners of the old Archos care about that as well.

That would explain why those arguments don't work on the H100 crowd.

Still, I think I prefer a consistent UI than a few odd shortcuts for "convenience".

[Llorean]

To me the consistent UI thing is more important as well. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the HWCodec platforms were branched, Rombox was gotten to work with the current featurset (if possible) and then maintained with mostly bugfixes.

But on many platforms (iPods, Sansa, iFP-700 if that gets finished, at the very least) left to WPS doesn't make that much sense even if the hierarchy were redesigned,

[Mikerman]

I can't speak to other platforms, but as to the iRiver H-xxx series (and I honestly don't recall if this has been said before, but perhaps it bears repeating):

My player spends a good deal of its life on my desk facing me, or in the car in a similar position.  In that position, it is much more convenient and useful to be able to use the joystick on the front of the player for as much as possible, rather than reaching around the player to use the play button on the side (in fact, on my desk right now, the right side of the player as it faces me is blocked).  In the car, there is a small safety factor as well (altho, having said that, the greatest safety factor would be not to press buttons while driving).

Is this an overarching issue?  No.  Does it justify adding the feature to the stock source code?  It depends on the complications vs. insular benefits, which the developers would know best.  Do I typically patch my code to add the feature in?  Yes.

The best con argument seems to have been complications for blind users.  But that seemingly can be addressed by having this as an option.  But adding to the code (even a small amount?) could complicate matters.  As Rockbox continues to expand, I do wonder as to consistency as an overarching argument, as each player is different, with different buttons and possibilities.  I would hate to see capabilities avoided in favor of consistency (that's what my high school did when I was growing up--not a good approach, in my humble opinion).

Just my 2 cents worth, as this topic has arisen again.

[markun]

I have a question for all you left-to-WPS lovers

In the rockbox IRC channel we have been talking about a root menu. It would be a menu containing: browse files, WPS, settings menu, FM radio, recording, plugins etc.

When you start rockbox it would show this menu, also pressing left in the file browser and settings menu would return here. The MENU button would always take you there.

There would also  be an option to start rockbox in one of the menu items by default (which is now only possible for the recording screen)

Now the question is, if it was implemented like this, would you guys still want the WPS to be the root of this root menu or would it be fine like this?

[goffa]

I'm to the point where i don't care if i have to patch as long as the patch works. But my main reason for advocating left to wps is this:

1) I have different players, different buttons are in different locations. So, pressing a different button to get to wps equals frustration at times

If WPS was on the root menu, as a top menu option, i guess that would accomplish the same thing in terms of useability.  However, it's kind of a moot point in light of the code size argument.

2) left currently does nothing at the root menu, so why not allow it to do something

[Mikerman]

In trying to conceptualize the change, I noted that, environmentally, I seem to use the left-to-WPS patch (1) because I'm used to it, moreso than using the play button to get to the WPS (with the "press play for WPS" patch, which I also have), but (2) also when it simply is easier to move the joystick to the left rather than reaching around to use the play button.  This latter circumstance tends to be when the player is on my crowded desk facing me and it is easier to reach the front of the player than the side, and when the player is facing me in the car, when I'm driving, and, again, it is easier to reach the player's front.

Operationally, I seem to use left-to-WPS when I am playing music and have entered the browser/file list, to delete a file or see what else is there.  Left-to-WPS and I am back to the WPS.

In that circumstance, and while I like the set-up being considered (it always seemed incomplete to me that there was no "Table of Contents" type screen in Rockbox, although it is not necessary and could be seen as adding a step, perhaps), left-to-WPS still would seem helpful, ergonomically.  

I wonder if a worthy (and relatively complication-free) option is a form of that mentioned in a post above:   left would take one to the Table of Contents screen, but then a further long left press (which feature could be turned on in the configuration options) would take one to the WPS.  It seemed, from the above, that this could be implemented with minimal code or complication, and that this would not interfere with use by those with vision issues.  

Also, if I understand the set-up being considered, it would "add" a step to get back to the WPS, by having to go thru the Table of Contents screen.   Left-to-WPS would seem to be an easy means by which to get back to the WPS with minimal effort and steps (as both the left-to-WPS and play button patches try to do now).

Just some humble thoughts; thank you for soliciting and considering them.

[fml2]

Now the question is, if it was implemented like this, would you guys still want the WPS to be the root of this root menu or would it be fine like this?

I wouldn't probably use that root menu. For me, it's just fine that RB starts in the file browser. And I don't consider the WPS the 'root' screen. But when music is playing (and the WPS is displayed), when I press NAVI (on my H120) to bring up the file browser it feels like menu. And if a menu is displayed from WPS I can go back to WPS by just pressing LEFT. I know that the file browser is not a menu. But it just feels like that (for me) when called up from WPS. That's the only reason I'd like the 'left to WPS' feature be implemented. Consistency, in a sense. Like Llorean. But seen a little bit differently. IMHO 'left to WPS' should not start playback if music is not playing. It should work like menu: if you went to file browser from WPS (like menu) you should return to WPS by pressing LEFT sufficient number of times. If the file browser is the 'main' screen (not called up as a menu), pressing LEFT in the root should do nothing.

As for the root menu, I don't quite like the WPS entry there. What would it do? Start the playback? What song then? Its purpose is not completely clear IMHO.

[xxtechn9ne]

hello everyone i am a rockbox noob and i  am having trouble getting to the root menu with my ipod 5g. how do i get back to the root menu?? thanks your help is appreciated