Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root

[rdtyphn]

To me this patch feels like it really is about prioritizing the various screens.  I feel like the screens should all go back to the wps screen.  This patch allows me to imagine that is so. 
I'm sure that rockbox's goal is to play music.  To me, this feels like it is supporting that goal.  I'm not sure the goal is to have the filetree be the primary focus.

[Llorean]

It's a filetree based music player though. The WPS only _exists_ when music is playing. You can't really do anything from it but control the flow of the current playlist. It's only useful when music is playing, so there is a condition where the WPS does not exist: When music is stopped.

There is no condition when the filetree does not exist, so it makes more sense for it to exist below the level of the WPS, because the WPS is invoked from within either the Filetree. The filetree makes it appear, so by definition it exists on top of the filetree.

[rdtyphn]

Ah, I understand now.  Thanks for being patient and explaining the status quo.

[Mikerman]

Your primary reasoning for liking the patch seems to be "My preconception is that the WPS is the base screen, and so should be where I return to."

Now I ask you: If it's Rockbox's goal to be a player in which it is NOT the base screen, why is this patch a good idea? Assume for the moment that this is not a debate over what should be the base screen, but rather just what the functionality of the button should be.

Llorean, I think I understand what you are saying and in that paradigm, it doesn't really make sense to have the left-to-WPS patch/function.  But isn't that somewhat pitting the system architecture against user's minds and what they seem to feel, for whatever the reason (or, at least what a substantial number of people seem to feel)?  

The best reasons I have heard thus far to countermand this "instinct" (if that's what it is) are accessibility issues for those who have visual limitations; and standardization among players.  But, I don't know that other non H-1xx users don't appreciate the patch (I don't know either way, if they would find it useful), and I don't know if the patch would complicate matters (however that's determined, philosophically or physically) such as to outweigh implementation as an option (either specific to the H-1xx players--I don't even know if that is an option--or generally).

edit:  Or maybe this all is bullsh*t and other things need to be turned to, and minds adjusted.  And it gives people patching experience!     Curious, though, that so many people feel this way about the patch--something is going on here.

[Llorean]

Well, a few points.
1) On accessibility, it is possible that it could be made option if it defaulted to off, but this increases code size frivolously which is exceptionally bad for the Archoses.
2) All targets need to function the same way when the hardware allows. Since the hardware allows, if it were to be implemented as an option, it would need to be on many, actively harming the Archos port in theory.

The H100 didn't have a left to enter WPS functionality in the root OS, but it did start you at the WPS screen instead of the song listing. The iPod starts you in the menu. The Archos and iAudios I honestly couldn't say, nor the H300.

I think that if you ran this poll in the general discussion, and figured out some way to force people to read the arguments both for and against implementing it, you would see a much different ratio of votes. I'm not saying that you'd end up with a majority for it not being implemented, but I think that it's skewed because of its location, and because of the fact that many people voted without knowing the harm the patch would _have_ to cause, either by harming the Archos port, harming blind users (as making it not an option would then probably not increase code size, or if so much less) or harming the unification of player control schemes.

That being said, Rockbox isn't a democracy, so whether the majority want this feature or not, there's a small group of people who get the final say in what features become 'official,' so saying "look, 2/3 of the people here want it" isn't necessarily a very strong argument at all, anyway.

[Mikerman]

All those points are understood and, as I said, harm to anything is a determining point (I only have an iRiver H-1xx and so can't speak to the other players).  And bloat also has to be considered--I don't know how much this patch could bullox things with bloat or with potential future complications (even though in and of itself, it is a small patch--who knows what the ripple could result in downstream).

I only mention the 2/3rds point not as a "voting issue" (you're right--the devs win!    and there are the other issues noted above some of which people likely weren't aware of) but as an indication that something real seems to be going on here for a substantial group of people--I don't know if it's finger laziness, training by the iRiver firmware, or something psychological (what I suspect)--I find that fascinating from a user/ergonomics perspective.

And do Hebrew users want to press right?

[Llorean]

The 'bloat' issue isn't much. It would likely be a VERY small amount of code added. But the question comes "Is that code even worth it, since there's already a perfectly good return-to-wps button that you wouldn't be getting rid of?"

But yeah, I agree in thinking that it's almost definitely psychological. People are used to left being "go back a level" and so if they think of the WPS as the homescreen (as the H100 firmware trains you to do) even with a new firmware, the expectation is that you'll eventually end up at the WPS if you keep hitting left.

[Febs]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I honestly believe that there would be a drastic change in the results of that poll if patch 5294 were implemented.  Part of the reason that the interface in its current form sometimes feels unintuitive is because play only calls the WPS from certain places in Rockbox (i.e., the File Browser) and not from other places (i.e., the menu system).  With patch 5294, the Play button calls the WPS from just about anywhere in Rockbox.  This completely unifies the feel of Rockbox navigation.

[Llorean]

I agree.

[yngwi]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I honestly believe that there would be a drastic change in the results of that poll if patch 5294 were implemented.  Part of the reason that the interface in its current form sometimes feels unintuitive is because play only calls the WPS from certain places in Rockbox (i.e., the File Browser) and not from other places (i.e., the menu system).  With patch 5294, the Play button calls the WPS from just about anywhere in Rockbox.  This completely unifies the feel of Rockbox navigation.

i for my part would definitely like to see this patch included...
as for the left to wps issue: it makes browsing significantly harder for me because i always accidently press left one time to much, and I'm not even blind...

[dunno]

I think patch 5924 is a good idea.

I dont like the left to wps idea, overshooting root happens frequently and is irratating.

[nieroster]

In fact navigaiton in Rockbox is quite unintuitive:

form the filebrowser you change to WPS by pressing Play
from other menus you return to the WPS with Stop
from a plugin you return to the WPS by pressing Stop... why not always use the same button?

Another issue:
Sometimes when I return from a line-out session I forget to reduce volume to a reasonable value for use with earpads. Pressing Stop prevents me from setting the volume. I have to unplug the earpads, press play, reduce the volume...Why not make the WPS the default screen (not the filebrowser!) just like in the old iRiver Software? Volume would be accessible all the time, not only when playing.

[LinusN]

In fact navigaiton in Rockbox is quite unintuitive:

form the filebrowser you change to WPS by pressing Play
from other menus you return to the WPS with Stop
from a plugin you return to the WPS by pressing Stop... why not always use the same button?

The menus return to the screen from where they were called. You return from a menu by pressing Stop (or Left).

Thus, if you call a menu from the WPS, you press Stop to leave the menu and go back to the WPS. The same goes if you open the menu from the browser.

[Febs]

Sometimes when I return from a line-out session I forget to reduce volume to a reasonable value for use with earpads. Pressing Stop prevents me from setting the volume. I have to unplug the earpads, press play, reduce the volume...Why not make the WPS the default screen (not the filebrowser!) just like in the old iRiver Software? Volume would be accessible all the time, not only when playing.

Even if the WPS were the default screen, volume would still not be accessible from within the menu system or the file browser.  On some platforms, there are simply not enough buttons to dedicate buttons exclusively to controlling volume.

In any event, an easy solution to your problem would be to create a .cfg file that adjusts the volume to your preferred level for headphone listening.  Name this something like 1volume -20.cfg and save it in your file browser.  It should then be right at the top of your file browser list when you turn your player on, and you can adjust your volume with a single click.

[pabouk]

Even if the WPS were the default screen, volume would still not be accessible from within the menu system or the file browser.  On some platforms, there are simply not enough buttons to dedicate buttons exclusively to controlling volume.

I think you missed the point. IMHO nieroster complained about the unability to get to the WPS without starting a playback (to just set the volume). He did not mention the theoretical possibility to set the volume from the file browser.

Although I prefer the file browser to be the main screen I consider nieroster's remark to be very reasonable. Anyway your solution should be sufficient