Rockbox "Experts" are jerks

[LambdaCalculus]

See? They're not such bad guys after all! They aren't being jerks... it's just tough love!  

[Llorean]

I'll agree I come off as a jerk, quite often. Ask the guys who went to DevConWest whether I'm much like that in real life though. Believe it or not, the way I treat these boards was a pretty tough decision for me.

But here's kinda how it boils down (to me):

1) It's the user's obligation to read the rules before posting on this board. To forward this, the (relatively short in comparison to some other places) agreement they click that they agree to before signing up includes a statement telling them where the rules are and that they're expected to follow them.

2) If the user doesn't follow the rules, that's a clear statement on their part that they to some degree don't respect the forum moderators and maintainers, through the fact that at the very least they chose not to read the agreement upon signup.

3) At this point while I'm not going to throw them out immediately, they've taken the first disruptive action, and some degree of "Come back when you've read the manual" is not overstepping bounds, and makes it clear that these forums are going to be somewhat harsh for someone who doesn't know where the lines are.

4) Reading the manual and searching are required by the guidelines. While somewhat less offensive to most than say, asking for illegal content, all the guidelines need to be enforced, effectively, or there's not much point in having them written as a guideline.

Many of the rules exist to try to keep the boards organized, so that searchers are more likely to find posts with solutions to their problems, rather than posts where someone asks about a problem and doesn't get a response because nobody wants to answer the same question. So, "read the manual" for this is a better response than no response at all, which often becomes the case in boards where there's too much noise in among the signal.

I will admit one problem still vexes me: Threads that are responded to with some variant of "just search" because they then contain relevant search terms, but no answer. So if someone searches for one of those terms, threads without an answer, telling them to search, may be among those they find. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there's no way to assure something be removed from searches beyond putting it out of the scope of user viewing, and that makes it difficult to insure the original poster has read it.

One solution to this is to remove the post entirely, and PM the original poster. This feels harsh. This may not be obvious to people, but I rarely lock posts, even if I respond to them with an answer telling the user to search or read the manual. This is actually because I don't mind if someone else does give them a direct answer, I'm just making it clear what policy is around here. Now, I will start locking and/or removing if I notice on person asking several questions answered in the manual (going back to the 'what good are rules not enforced') but it's a case of 'once they've explicitly been told to read the manual and the rules by a human being, there's no "I clicked through without reading, like everyone else in the world would do" excuse.' I still think it's proper to read the rules before you post in a forum, but realistically know there's no way I can have this expectation. But I don't feel people should need to be told more than once that "the rules will be enforced here" before you start removing or locking their posts and PMing them.

Still, no good solution to "first posts with the only response being 'please search before posting, as the rules require" so I'm welcome to suggestions there.

[soap]

... the interesting ways in which experts will shoot down poorly written requests for help or criticize any challenges to the status quo.

Groupthink can be a very dangerous and damaging condition, and can afflict organizations of all shapes and sizes.

(Soap is speaking for nobody but Soap)

That being said, groupthink primarily causes damage to business and managerial practices.  Rockbox isn't a commercial or service-sector company.  Rockbox has no commercial interests to endanger, no customers to lose, no employees to disgruntle.  What Rockbox is, though, is a dozen-headed hydra which only moves when the snouts all point (at least roughly) in one direction.  Because of this, groupthink is to be expected, if not encouraged, in many situations.

PS - I'd like to think ideas counter to the status quo get challenged, not criticized, but I know that is neither always the case, nor how well-meaning words often get interpreted.

[cpchan]

I like to think that most of us old hands try not to actually be condescending to people. It *does* get to the point sometimes when I really want to shout at someone who's posted here with the same dumb thing I've seen posted here 20 times before

I totally agree. I have had this experience many times on various mailing lists and forums. Sometimes I just want to resort to telling them to RTFM or STFW. I hate spoon feeding people- they will never learn anything from that.

Charles

[Sherv]

Heh, how about only allowing new users to register after they pass a multiple-choice test based on the manual?

[Davide-NYC]

I've been on this forum for quite a while and find that the mods and admins have a level of patience usually reserved for saints.

[RowaN]

guys where can i find teh GaMeBoy rhomz and WHY CANT YOU FIX IT TO PLAY FULL SPeed? what about DS ROMS??

i kid of course

sometimes n00bs need a dose of tough love. go rockbox!
Sherv - nice idea

[TexasRockbox]

I'll speak from a noob side.  Getting an ipod and straight to installing rockbox as soon as it could be determined that the ipod was electrically functional was a pretty fast decision -- about a day.  I had already read though the manual (haven't memorized it yet) so had some idea what to  expect.  Once it all installed and worked from the start, it became absolutely thrilling knowing that I haven't purchased a $330USD slab of metal and plastic.

Instead, I have a $330 high capacity ogg vorbis player!  At this point, the excitement becomes about overwheling as one starts to realize what can be possible.  It is probably at this point the noob makes a posting with either something stupid, gushing, or slightly relevent.

I would give a well-meaning noob, one free pass before "search",  RTFM, etc..  Yes Rockbox is a project and the forum is intended to help the project along.  But face it, we've all been noobs at something at one point -- we've ALL been there.  I think the one free pass is worth the *not* chasing off of someone who may really be talented.

Now this noob (me) is working on a theme, leaning how it works, and may end up posting several new themes.  It's been awhile since I've coded "C" but may look into that as well.

[vitess]

Many developers/experts in the F/OSS community have "the attitude" but it's often as a response to users demonstrating an "attitude" of their own. Take this final post from a user in the thread I read just before this one:

alright well that sucks.. if somehow that would be fixed so i could use the itrip with my sansa on rockbox i would gladly get rockbox but i love driving and listening to my mp3 player so i suppose i won't get rockbox

That's far from the worst example but it is typical of the "me me me" "I want I want I want" perspective. That said, as a user I was similar before I started developing F/OSS myself and gained an appreciation for the time and effort that goes into it. I don't recall being a jerk from memory - I only know it because I recently happened upon a 10-year-old IRC log in which I was making demands of a developer of a Free program in his support channel. I cringed when I read it.

What developers need to remember is that users often don't realise they're being jerks, and responding with condescension or berating them just serves to increase their jerkiness.

[Febs]

That's far from the worst example but it is typical of the "me me me" "I want I want I want" perspective.

Here is an example of a message that I received just two days ago.  This user sent me a personal message asking for help (which is specifically prohibited by the posting guidelines), but did not say what he needed help with.  I responded by (1) pointing out that it is inappropriate to send personal messages asking for help, and (2) suggesting that he post a message in the forums with a detailed description of the trouble he was having.  

Instead of starting his own thread, he hijacked another thread in a clearly inappropriate forum and posted a message that said, "help please."  That's it.  No explanation of the problem, no suggestion of what help he needed, just "help please."  

Seven minutes later, he posted another message saying, "help i bin hear for a minute waiting can you please help me whats the point of having a forum if nobody aint helping."

I deleted those two posts, and sent him another private message suggesting that he read the manual, and then start a thread with whatever specific question he may have.  He replied immediately (within seconds, and obviously without making any effort to find the manual on his own), "Where's the manual."  I replied, "under the link that says 'Manual'."

Here is his response:

"dead u b*** a** n*** u acting like a f****ing b***h write now like u cant f**ing help me u kno what s**k my d**k p**y im from the hood i show love but since u aint shwing love s**kl my d**k"

Needless to say, this person no longer has an account on these forums.

What developers need to remember is that users often don't realise they're being jerks, and responding with condescension or berating them just serves to increase their jerkiness.

There is a difference between people who are honestly confused and people who are jerks.  I think that we should be patient with the people who are honestly confused.  For example, if someone has read the manual and truly doesn't understand a point, then we should help that person or improve the manual.  (The example comes to mind of the people who don't understand what the "root" of a drive is, and who stumble over that portion of the installation instructions.)  Those people who make an honest effort to help themselves and to follow our posting guidelines but who simply don't understand something deserve our respect, and we should try to help them without being demeaning or condescending.  Granted, it is difficult at times to answer the same basic question dozens of times, but we need to remember that the question is new to that user.

That said, I have little patience for the people who come here and without reading our guidelines or our manual, start threads with non-descriptive titles using incomprehensible grammar and demand that we spoon feed them information that is readily available in the manual.

[Llorean]

Just to echo, I've been through several similar experiences, where a message saying something like "I've removed your most recent post. It was put in an inappropriate forum. Please read our guidelines and search the manual before posting" has responded with a variety of insults, and in one case, an extended series of threats from a user who circumvented the ban several times, each time taking the time to PM me and threaten me again. It was clear the user was just mouthing off, but nobody likes to here excessive details about what sort of harm another person claims to want to do to them.

[LambdaCalculus]

Say Febs, this individual you're mentioning sounds kind of familiar. I remember somebody that registered on the forums during the week, and he matches your description. He made no attempts to tell us what was wrong, instead only posting "help please" and "i need help", and the best one: "yo how to chnge bakdrp on vid ipod". (Well, that last one may be off... I don't speak Barbarian.)

I usually leave at least one browser window up at work to keep up with the activity on the forums, and I remember suddenly getting a PM. I click it, and it's some kid saying "yo i need help wid dis roxbox". Needless to say, I deleted it.

Do you think this kid simply grew impatient with waiting for a response, and took it upon himself to just start PMing members at random? That kind of behavior on a forum, needless to say, really cheeses me off. I came here because I wanted to help others out and to learn more as I go, not to hear stupid kids come in asking "g1mm3 t3h G4m3b0y R0mZ!!!", as I mentioned earlier.

I think that's why I tend to be a bit disgruntled sometimes. Kids find out about Rockbox, but come in for all of the wrong reasons. Rockbox is an excellent music player, and I consider having games a perk... a bonus, if you will. These kids, though, seem like they're just getting into it for the games, but they come crying when their "pwecious" games don't work, and expect us to jump on command to make them work.

And then you wonder why some F/OSS projects tend to have somewhat jaded volunteers sometimes...

[Febs]

Do you think this kid simply grew impatient with waiting for a response, and took it upon himself to just start PMing members at random? That kind of behavior on a forum, needless to say, really cheeses me off.

I think that he started PMing members first, and only posted in the forums after I replied to him.  As far as I am concerned, that's even worse.  

[tdtooke]

I'll add my two cents to this, mostly to the original poster.  If you have a problem with a specific mod and really feel that calling them a jerk is called for then you do that in private through a pm.  To me publicly doing such a thing is damaging to a concept I most firmly believe in: a chain of command.  As they are in a position of authority here public remarks of that kind are not productive.  Not to say that an expert would never earn the title "jerk", as humans they all have the capability of earning that name from time to time.  There may be some that disagree with me on pm'ng for this purpose, but to do so publicly is also in my opinion tacky.  

[DefineByte]

Nah, I think his post was okay (as a one off). This thread was quite cathartic.