Rockbox General > Rockbox General Discussion
Rejection of "ignore the" patch (split from the Evil_G unsupported build thread)
lalittle:
--- Quote from: Llorean on June 12, 2007, 11:31:13 AM ---The plugin would have to read every tag, because it'd be impossible for it to know in advance which files have an article and which don't, but of course it'd only write the sort tags for the ones that needed changing, if done properly.
--- End quote ---
That seems logical to me. It's the "re-writing" process that would take most of the time, so as long as it didn't have to re-write the files that didn't require it, it would save a great deal of time.
--- Quote ---Also, as was said far, far earlier in this discussion, a very simple PC-Side program or script could do the exact same thing as this plugin, on a computer, as well automating the process and doing it in a far, far, far shorter time.
--- End quote ---
My preference for keeping the process within Rockbox is because for people like myself that use a music organization program that does not make use of the sort tags, Rockbox is the only thing that would utilize them. I'd therefore prefer to not have a separate program manipulate the tags -- I'd like to keep the original files unchanged. My personal preference, in other words, would be to keep the process entirely self-contained within Rockbox. This way, anybody who preferred the "ignore" approach could achieve "sorting without articles" by navigating the Rockbox menu and selecting the "create article-free sort tags" option. I think this would make the feature much more "accessible" to a much wider group of people.
Thanks again,
Larry
soap:
--- Quote from: lalittle link=topic=10689.msg83587#msg83587 ---My preference for keeping the process within Rockbox is because for people like myself that use a music organization program that does not make use of the sort tags, Rockbox is the only thing that would utilize them. I'd therefore prefer to not have a separate program manipulate the tags -- I'd like to keep the original files unchanged.
--- End quote ---
I don't see the separation you are seeing. For either way this is implemented there will be a separate program manipulating the tags. The only question is on what platform will said program run.
There is no difference between a Rockbox plugin creating sort tags and a "separate program" (PC side) manipulating the tags of the files residing on your DAP.
A pluggin is nothing more than that, a "separate program", just one which runs on a small processor with limited resources.
There appears to be no difference between a PC side application and a DAP side application (pluggin) outside the aesthetic (and, again, the limited resources affecting the DAP). You must have your DAP plugged into the computer to transfer new files, might as well use the computer to create sort tags at that time.
lalittle:
--- Quote from: soap on June 12, 2007, 04:52:26 PM ---I don't see the separation you are seeing. Â For either way this is implemented there will be a separate program manipulating the tags. Â The only question is on what platform will said program run.
--- End quote ---
In one case, an entirely separate program is required -- this program must be downloaded, installed, and configured to run a specific script. In many cases, the re-written files will then have to be either updated or re-imported into the libary of the management program being used on this system. Rockbox users would also need to have prior knowledge of this separate process that existed outside of Rockbox -- i.e. it wouldn't be inherently apparent that this capability existed.
In the other case, everything needed for the system to work would be contained on the Rockbox itself, and since it would be a menu item, it would be visible to everybody as an available feature. Since the Rockbox sorting capability would be the only use for the advanced tags for many people (given that many mainstream programs don't utilize these tags) I feel it makes sense to completely contain this capability within Rockbox. The feature would be right there in the Rockbox menus for all users to see, which would make it readily accessible to everybody who wanted to utilize this feature. If a separate, outside process was needed for this, many people would never even know about it.
On top of this, I would rather not manipulate my original files any further if I don't have to, and I prefer to use a single application for this rather than one app for my "main" audio management duties, and another for this specific purpose. In the past, there have been various "issues" related to editing tags with more than one program. These issues are not that common, but they do exist.
--- Quote ---There is no difference between a Rockbox plugin creating sort tags and a "separate program" (PC side) manipulating the tags of the files residing on your DAP.
--- End quote ---
There may be no difference to the end result, but there is definitely a distinct difference in work-flow philosophy. This work-flow difference may not matter to some people, but it does to others.
--- Quote ---A pluggin is nothing more than that, a "separate program", just one which runs on a small processor with limited resources.
--- End quote ---
But since this is a Rockbox specific feature to many (if not most) people, it makes sense (in my opinion) to offer the "complete" process from within Rockbox. Again, this will make the feature more "accessible" to a wider group of people. I honestly believe that if this feature was offered (i.e. the ability to have Rockbox add these "sort tags" itself via a self-contained process), a lot of people would take advantage of it.
Larry
soap:
--- Quote from: lalittle on June 12, 2007, 06:10:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: soap on June 12, 2007, 04:52:26 PM ---I don't see the separation you are seeing. For either way this is implemented there will be a separate program manipulating the tags. The only question is on what platform will said program run.
--- End quote ---
In one case, an entirely separate program is required -- this program must be downloaded, installed, and configured to run a specific script. In many cases, the re-written files will then have to be either updated or re-imported into the libary of the management program being used on this system.
--- End quote ---
No - you merely retag files while they reside on your DAP. You keep stressing this point, but it is an invalid one. There is no need for this process to interfere with your music management program of choice.
--- Quote ---Rockbox users would also need to have prior knowledge of this separate process that existed outside of Rockbox -- i.e. it wouldn't be inherently apparent that this capability existed.
--- End quote ---
As opposed to Rockbox users needing to have prior knowledge of the plugin?
--- Quote ---In the other case, everything needed for the system to work would be contained on the Rockbox itself, and since it would be a menu item, it would be visible to everybody as an available feature. Since the Rockbox sorting capability would be the only use for the advanced tags for many people (given that many mainstream programs don't utilize these tags) I feel it makes sense to completely contain this capability within Rockbox.
--- End quote ---
Be it a plugin or a PC side application the end results would be the same - modified metadata on the audio files residing on your DAP. Whether this affects your usage of "mainstream" music management programs or not is inconsequential, as said program will be equally affected either way.
--- Quote ---The feature would be right there in the Rockbox menus for all users to see,
--- End quote ---
Not to split hairs, but it will be a pluggin, not a menu item.
--- Quote ---which would make it readily accessible to everybody who wanted to utilize this feature. If a separate, outside process was needed for this, many people would never even know about it.
--- End quote ---
Failure to read the manual affects people's knowledge and understanding of the "Random Folder Advance" pluggin. How would this one be different?
--- Quote ---On top of this, I would rather not manipulate my original files any further if I don't have to,
--- End quote ---
Again - nowhere did anyone suggest modifying your original files.
--- Quote --- and I prefer to use a single application for this rather than one app for my "main" audio management duties, and another for this specific purpose. In the past, there have been various "issues" related to editing tags with more than one program. These issues are not that common, but they do exist.
--- End quote ---
Straw man - a broken tagger is a broken tagger. A pluggin would be modifying your tags in the exact same fashion as a PC side app.
EDIT:spelling
safetydan:
One thing that I think needs clarification is that support for sort tags (e.g. TSOP and company) is not a Rockbox specific feature. These tags are defined in the ID3v2.4 metadata specification and equivalents can be found in various Vorbis comment specs.
There are several other systems out there that can edit and make use of these sort tags. For example the Squeezebox from SlimDevices supports using these tags (well technically I think it's the SlimServer, but the point stands). So Rockbox is not alone in using these.
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