ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!

[crzyboyster]

ZincAlloy, here's my recommendation: forget about the images being 24 bit! They're fine the way they are and will make the end user happier as the graphics being used now are very clean and sleek, unlike the 16 bit ones...

[ZincAlloy]

true, but ironically the user IS seeing 16bit graphics.

btw, your ports aren't looking clean and sleek...  

[yapper]

Well, first and foremost, I hate graphical volume displays. But most of my complaints can be seen earlier in this thread anyway.

I understand the need at times to have a more precise volume indication, but (correct me when I'm wrong) this is not required all the time. For instance, when using a DAP connected to an in-car system, it might be nice to set the DAP volume to a particular value to prevent clipping. On my target (2nd Gen iPod), this is easily achieved from the WPS with a long click on Select, followed by two regular clicks on Select to get to the Volume menu.

Personally, I tweak the graphics so that the volume setting I need for in-car use is highlighted in some way (a bolder bar for instance). This doesn't give a totally exact level setting, but is adequate to set the level to something close to the maximum before clipping ensues, and eliminates having to remember what level is best for the car.

[Llorean]

I haven't checked, but does the graphical display at least make use of the ">0" extra conditional entries on every target relevant?

[yapper]

I haven't checked them all either, but my port uses

Code: [Select]

%?pv<%xdM|%xdN|%xdO|%xdP|%xdp|%xdq|%xdr|%xds|%xdt> so the last graphic is presented when the volume setting exceeds 0dB.

[Llorean]

Does the last graphic indicate somehow that it's "More than max", like changing color, or having the rightmost pixels red or something?

Basically, *at* 0 should usually be "full" volume because above 0 is very likely to sound funny or distorted depending on your audio files, and there should be some visual cue that it's not "right" to be there.

[GodEater]

Basically, *at* 0 should usually be "full" volume because above 0 is very likely to sound funny or distorted depending on your audio files, and there should be some visual cue that it's not "right" to be there.

You mean some indication apart from the fact that your ears are bleeding?

[yapper]

The last graphic indicates that it's "More than max" by appearing  

I agree, it's probable that distortion will be present at that point, but I've left it to the user to determine whether or not the distortion is noticeable/acceptable/tolerable.

[Llorean]

The thing is, some players max at 0dB, and some max at +6 or more. There should be a unique identifier for when you're >0, because otherwise the user has no way of knowing they've passed the "line level" output. 0db is a VERY important value, because if you're hooking up to a line in, it's generally what you should be using, etc. It's important to be able to distinguish it easily, just in general.

There's a unique entry in the conditional for >0, rather than treating it as "more of the same" (evenly divided) specifically because >0 is not the same as <=0.

[ZincAlloy]

ahhhhh, so there IS a use for this one.... didn't know about that. I will add an additional icon later today. for what targets do we need it?

[yapper]

There should be a unique identifier for when you're >0, because otherwise the user has no way of knowing they've passed the "line level" output.

This is indicated by the last bar appearing.

Assigning a special colour to it could also be misleading, because a user who cares sufficiently is likely to have set the precut in the graphical equalizer menu to effectively limit the maximum to 0dB, rather than a positive value. In those circumstances, the last bar would still be a 'safe' setting.

[Llorean]

Setting the precut in an equalizer is not a proper solution to limiting to 0dB. The equalizer is digital gain, the volume is analog gain.

So what you're suggesting doesn't work the way you think it does. And someone who sets the precut KNOWS they've done so. People who can't see the numerical volume have no way of knowing their player goes above Line Level.

Remember, this is for NEW users. Since they can't see +1 and above, they have no way of knowing the last line means something special unless it's graphically different. As it stands, it's just like any other line.

We moved from 0-100% to a dB scale so the numbers can be meaningful. You're intentionally saying "I want to make the volume display less meaningful." Honestly, can you justify WHY special values should NOT be indicated, when they in fact ARE special values?

I mean honestly, how can a new user know that the last bar means anything but "as loud as it gets", when it really means "louder than it gets" in a sense. Especially when on other players, the last bar really DOES just mean "as loud as it gets" because some DO cap at 0dB

[yapper]

Setting the precut in an equalizer is not a proper solution to limiting to 0dB. The equalizer is digital gain, the volume is analog gain.

Isn't limiting via a digital gain setting the ideal? The digital gain block will be before the DAC, so signal integrity is maintained.

You're intentionally saying "I want to make the volume display less meaningful." Honestly, can you justify WHY special values should NOT be indicated, when they in fact ARE special values?

As I've said, the >0dB case IS indicated. I just don't treat this case as being 'special' as other settings may also have special significance too. One of my cars has an adapter which clips at levels above about -12dB. Another clips at a different level.

Maybe you need to write a detailed spec for your ideal WPS, and we'll have a go at producing Grumpy 1.0  

[Llorean]

The 0dB case is NOT indicated for people who don't know it exists.

If our numbers we numbered volume from say, 0 to 50, there would be no way to distinguish that 48, 49, and 50 were above 0dB. The same is true with your graphics. We don't, we number using the actual range of the DAC.

I'm going to say here and now, I'll fight tooth and nail to be sure that the default WPS has a graphical volume display that indicates when you have gone past the "expect clipping" point to a new user. Or rather, I'll fight tooth and nail to see that one that doesn't isn't committed.

As I've said already: NEW USERS. They don't necessarily know about other settings. If they turn up the volume, they should see, IMMEDIATELY, that something is different about volume at this point. That they're over "Full" volume. Because 0dB really is "Full".

Your only justification for not doing it is "I use more complicated settings, which negate this meaning." But if you apply precut, you know about the settings. Why is it bad that the last bar still indicates >0dB analog gain? What HARM comes from actually providing additional useful information?

0dB isn't "when your adapter might clip". 0dB is "line level" which means above it is when your DAP itself might clip.

[yapper]

You obviously have a very strong personal view about the 0dB level.
The fix you propose (using the WPS to indicate 0dB+) would require ALL graphical WPS to use this technique.

The method I proposed (pre-cut) could be implemented at the build level for each target, and would be effective regardless of the subsequent WPS selection.

Incidentally, I don't remember seeing any significant forum traffic related to this issue. Is it possible that most don't care or notice clipping?