Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => User Interface and Voice => Topic started by: pablored on January 19, 2007, 06:25:49 PM

Title: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: pablored on January 19, 2007, 06:25:49 PM
I know that user interface issues are highly personal, and closely linked to individual usage.  Also I can only talk from my experience on the iPod.  But I don't think I can be the only one who find it frustrating having to hold the centre button in the click wheel to access the playlist functions.  

It is fine, until you have spent ages setting up a list of tracks for an afternoon only to wipe it with a slightly too short key press.  My ideal scenario would be for the centre button to be insert (but that is just for me, I guess most prefer that as Play).. but there is duplication in the Right button also acting as Play.  Could that be Insert?

I have played with the Party mode, but that isn't quite there.  It would need Insert as one of the two buttons... and MOST importantly the ability to queue directories.  

Does this make sense to anyone else?

--> I guess it does, by searching more I found this.  But does anyone know if it works for the iPod?  http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/2653

Regards
Paul
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Febs on January 19, 2007, 06:56:34 PM

It is fine, until you have spent ages setting up a list of tracks for an afternoon only to wipe it with a slightly too short key press.


Turn on the "Warn When Erasing Dynamic Playlists" setting:

Main Menu --> Playlist Options --> Warn When Erasing Dynamic Playlists
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: ryran on January 19, 2007, 09:15:56 PM
I hear ya febs, and I know this has come up before... but I totally agree. In a perfect world, I would wish that the select button could be set to insert.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Febs on January 19, 2007, 09:45:48 PM
Personally,  I think that it makes much more sense for the "Select" button to select, and the "Right" button to insert, but I agree that functionality would be useful.  I just wanted to point out that the capability currently exists to prevent the accidental erasing of a playlist by mistiming a button press.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Llorean on January 19, 2007, 09:52:44 PM
I've actually spoken in favour of Select selecting and Right inserting in the past (right's MUCH easier to accidentally hit on say H100 series anyway, but also easy to hit multiple times quickly for inserting several files).
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: soap on January 20, 2007, 09:33:34 AM
I'm assuming right would move you deeper into the directory tree until you get to a file, at which point it would act as "insert"?
If this is so, how would you insert an entire directory?
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Febs on January 20, 2007, 09:44:56 AM
There are two ways this could work:

1.  Since right and play are currently redundant, right could be dedicated to inserting to playlist.  So, if one were to hit right on a folder, the folder would be inserted.  Select would be used to open a folder rather than inserting it.

or

2.  The "quick insert" could operate only on files, so that right and play would both open folders, and right would only be used to insert files.

Personally, I would prefer #1 for two reasons.  First, it is more functional.  Second, I don't see any need to have functionality duplicated on two separate buttons when one of those buttons could be used for something else.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: pablored on January 20, 2007, 11:09:42 AM
Thanks for the replies.  Once again I can only comment on use on a Nano.

I had been using the select (centre button) to always open directories, but from a logical point of view left and right probably make more sense for movement through the structure.  Especially if that Left to WPS patch is heading towards inclusion.  I was used to the other manner from Apple I guess.  

Also, it follows that you never need to play a directory.  So play could be best as being the fast forward/right  button (given that play is already taken).  To play a track you would move forward through the structure, pressing the same button to play it at the end.. or move to the centre button to insert into the playlist at any point (directory or file).  Holding this down would bring up the usual playlist menu.   It would be easy to document as a playlist button, perhaps the short press option could even be definable from the long press list?

Option 1 from Febs is also great, I just wonder about which would make most sense to a new user and heads towards the most consistent overall.  The above suggestion just swaps the buttons.  

This is really tricky though isn't it, due to what people have got used to and the different button layouts on different players.  Different spaces between buttons and all that affecting usability.  I've only just started using Rockbox this last month, and love the playlist functions.  Just wish there was a simple way to fix the keymap.  

Thanks Febs for the pointer to the Playlist Options, that should stop some frustration in the meantime.  

Paul
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Febs on January 20, 2007, 11:27:37 AM
Especially if that Left to WPS patch is heading towards inclusion.


I think that it is safe to say that the "left to WPS patch" will *never* be included in Rockbox.  There is very strong opposition to the concept among some of the core developers, for several very good reasons that are explained in the thread on that patch.  (Among other things, (1) the file browser is Rockbox's main screen so the concept doesn't make much sense, (2) it would make navigation more difficult for blind users, and (3) the "play" button already goes to WPS from the file browser, so it is unnecessary.)

Quote
Also, it follows that you never need to play a directory.  So play could be best as being the fast forward/right  button (given that play is already taken).  To play a track you would move forward through the structure, pressing the same button to play it at the end.. or move to the centre button to insert into the playlist at any point (directory or file).  Holding this down would bring up the usual playlist menu.   It would be easy to document as a playlist button, perhaps the short press option could even be definable from the long press list?


My suggestion is more intuitive to me, but I can see the argument for doing it the other way.  I suspect that if this were to be implemented, there would be a significant percentage of the user base that would need to adapt regardless of which method were chosen.

Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: JdGordon on January 21, 2007, 03:44:34 AM

1.  Since right and play are currently redundant, right could be dedicated to inserting to playlist.  So, if one were to hit right on a folder, the folder would be inserted.  Select would be used to open a folder rather than inserting it.

sounds good, BUT I think not only should it be optional, it sould be customizable also.
i.e, right would allow any of the playlist insert options (so all the insert and queue options)

heck, I would even like it if right just opened up that playlist insert menu, because long press navi is annoying.

also, remeber we have the rec button on the hxxx which is barely used at all which people have been asking for this sort of thing on that button for ages....

whatever the outcome, this sort of patch is fairly easy to put together, so all we need is some sort of consensus and the OK from the core guys and its good to go.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Rincewind on January 21, 2007, 02:49:12 PM
Quote

sounds good, BUT I think not only should it be optional, it sould be customizable also.
i.e, right would allow any of the playlist insert options (so all the insert and queue options)

I wish you good luck getting something regarding buttons and customisability past the core developers...

If I knew that it had chances to get included, I would extend my record button patch with this functionalty (different players, different buttons, but the same concept).
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: rossic on January 22, 2007, 12:46:18 AM
Sorry to butt in with another tangent, but...

Well, I had been thinking this pretty recently myself, and wondering if I should put it in feature request or not.  Here was my thought on the issue (from the perspective of an iriver3x0).

If I am alone in this reasoning, then I am sorry to bother you...

The NAVI (center) button currently does 2 things.  


This seems rather silly to me.  I don't always want to add the whole directory, and with the current set up there is no way to just have ONE song in the playlist.  You can do it, but it involves more than one step, which just becomes tedious.  I think that NAVI should just put one song in the playlist and play it.  

Then, like you have been discussing, make the RIGHT button insert (next / last / etc, maybe modifiable through config menus?) and also automatically select the next file, so that if you want to select 3 files that are next to eachother, you hit "RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT," not "RIGHT, DOWN, RIGHT, DOWN, RIGHT, DOWN."  This setup would also mean that you must hold NAVI to insert an entire directory, but I think that's something we can deal with to enqueue a whole directory.

Also... sometimes it might be nice to choose on the fly if I want to add the whole directory recursively or non recursively (though it's pretty rare).  

If I missed something, and there is an easy way to just have one file in the playlist... could someone tell me how?  :D
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Llorean on January 22, 2007, 01:00:53 AM
You do realize that "Insert" would be inserting a single file into a playlist. Wouldn't that negate the need to have NAVI play just one file?

You seem to want to reduce *both* buttons from what they do now, not preserving that function at all.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: rossic on January 22, 2007, 07:02:13 AM
I'm not sure if you follow me...

I'm saying that if you have a bunch of files in the playlist, and you say, "hey, I'd really just like to start a fresh playlist," you can't just insert a song.  If you currently use the NAVI button at that point, you start a new playlist, sure, but you also include the other files in the directory.  That's a "reduction," I suppose, but my point was kind of poking at the fact that I think the current functionality of the NAVI button is flawed.  

I do agree that functionality would benefit if the right button became an insert.  However, I think NAVI is a little strange.

Am I the only one who would like to be able to select a single song, and make it the only song in a playlist?
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: JdGordon on January 22, 2007, 07:11:22 AM

Am I the only one who would like to be able to select a single song, and make it the only song in a playlist?

No, ive always thouught this was strange also..
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Febs on January 22, 2007, 07:17:10 AM
Isn't that what the 'play next' function does?  I would certainly *not* want to reduce the Navi/Select functionality to playing a single song.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: nls on January 22, 2007, 12:18:48 PM

I'm saying that if you have a bunch of files in the playlist, and you say, "hey, I'd really just like to start a fresh playlist," you can't just insert a song.  If you currently use the NAVI button at that point, you start a new playlist, sure, but you also include the other files in the directory.  That's a "reduction," I suppose, but my point was kind of poking at the fact that I think the current functionality of the NAVI button is flawed.  


Or you can do this the old way, press stop, then insert your track, simple!  :)

I've never in, my two years of using my h320, ever wanted to put _one_ song in a playlist and wouldn't want a quick button for that... (Yes I know everybody have different listening habits but this can't be that common, can it?)
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Llorean on January 22, 2007, 01:48:28 PM
But if you make Right an Insert, then there's NO reason for Navi to do a single song, because that's exactly what 'Insert' IS.

You're arguing to make both buttons an insert, for some very strange reason, and I'm not sure if you can see it.

If you wanted to start a single-song playlist with Navi staying the same and Right being insert, you just press stop, then press Right on a song.

Right now Navi plays a whole folder so that *gasp* you don't have to set up a playlist in advance before you can listen to music. This is how many, many MP3 players operate (just starting on a selected song and traversing the folder or device from there).
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: rossic on January 22, 2007, 07:06:07 PM
Ah ha!  I had said this a while ago...


If I missed something, and there is an easy way to just have one file in the playlist... could someone tell me how?  :D


I just double checked the documentation, well... the manual and a few wiki pages (that was a fast recovery of the web page!  Glad it's back!), and I did not see the same information you have given me.  I don't often use the stop button.  I didn't realize it was any different from the play/pause button except that it would restart the track you were on, as opposed to continuing from the moment you stopped it.  I was unaware that you could insert a single song if there were no songs playing.  This is because if you stop playback then resume, your playlist is untouched.  

I think there are other users confused about this as well.  I saw a few other people asking for a "clear playlist" feature (which is all I really wanted...).  I think that the manual should state this info clearly ... "If you insert while playback is stopped, then a new playlist will be generated."  

If this info is somewhere, and I didn't see it... then maybe it's hidden too well.  Anyone know if it's written and where?  Oh, and before I get gasped at again for not recognizing this feature, let me just say sorry in advance.  


Right now Navi plays a whole folder so that *gasp* you don't have to set up a playlist in advance before you can listen to music. This is how many, many MP3 players operate (just starting on a selected song and traversing the folder or device from there).


Finally, I think that Rockbox is better than many, many other MP3 players (firmware) which is why I was suggesting the change.  With a few more stability tweaks and minor features, it will undoubtedly be the best.  I still think that NAVI playing a directory is strange, but as long as I can start a new playlist the way you described, I'm satisfied...  oh, and I still say (agree with everyone here, it seems) that right should be insert.  Now can we all agree on what insert it should be, or should it be customizable?  
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Rincewind on January 22, 2007, 07:39:28 PM
I don't like right to be insert, instead I would like to have the record button be customisable with an insert option (I plan to code this for my patch anyway). This is obviously only on irivers.

I don't use NAVI to select the files, I navigate to the directory (album) I want to play and press Right on the first track to play the whole album.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: JdGordon on January 22, 2007, 07:53:27 PM
I think right to insert is more logical than rec... its certsinly more standard over all the targets
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: nls on January 23, 2007, 07:02:22 AM

If this info is somewhere, and I didn't see it... then maybe it's hidden too well.  Anyone know if it's written and where?  Oh, and before I get gasped at again for not recognizing this feature, let me just say sorry in advance.  


It isn't very hidden at all IMO http://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-h300/rockbox-buildch4.html#x7-550004.4.2

Quote from: manual

If playback is stopped, the Insert and Queue functions can be used as described in the next section to create a new playlist instead of adding to an existing one.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Febs on January 23, 2007, 07:40:22 AM

I think there are other users confused about this as well.  I saw a few other people asking for a "clear playlist" feature (which is all I really wanted...).  I think that the manual should state this info clearly ... "If you insert while playback is stopped, then a new playlist will be generated."  

If this info is somewhere, and I didn't see it... then maybe it's hidden too well.  Anyone know if it's written and where?  Oh, and before I get gasped at again for not recognizing this feature, let me just say sorry in advance.


We are always happy to improve the manual.  What you should do is write up all of your proposed changes and submit them as a patch on Flyspray.  If you are familiar with LaTeX, you can submit them in the form of a patch that can be applied directly to the manual's source files.  If you are not familiar with LaTeX, you can simply write up your proposed changes in a .txt file or even in the text of the Flyspray entry.  I, or one of the others who maintain the manual, will then incorporate the changes into the source.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Rincewind on January 23, 2007, 01:15:57 PM

I think right to insert is more logical than rec... its certsinly more standard over all the targets


well, "Insert" != "play some music" for me. If you think back to the iriver firmware, the Rec button was used as a (limited in functionality) insert/queue there. I never use NAVI to play a song because it is more difficult to press on the H1xx than Right.

I don't think we need to find the smallest possible agreement across all targets here, unified buttons over all targets are practically impossible anyway and would reduce the usability of rockbox on targets with more buttons.

I can see that this case is not easy to decide, I see that there are strong arguments against my side. Make it an option, maybe?
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Llorean on January 23, 2007, 01:25:35 PM
Controls should be "as unified as possible". This does not mean identical, but if a button serves a purpose A on one screen and B on another, on all targets the one that does A on the first screen should do B on the second, if possible.

This does mean that the Record button is up for grabs.

My suggestion:

Navi: "Start a new playlist with the selected song" (or in this folder, if start with selected is disabled)
Right: Insert highlighted (Not Insert Next or Insert Last, just generic Insert, this would also do one-song playlists)
Rec-Long: Recording screen
Rec-Short: Queue (again neither Next or Last)
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Febs on January 23, 2007, 03:54:43 PM

well, "Insert" != "play some music" for me. If you think back to the iriver firmware, the Rec button was used as a (limited in functionality) insert/queue there.

I honestly don't even remember how the iriver firmware works.

Quote
I never use NAVI to play a song because it is more difficult to press on the H1xx than Right.

I find exactly the opposite.

Which goes to show that this is indeed true:
Quote
I can see that this case is not easy to decide,
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: rossic on January 23, 2007, 07:11:48 PM
Thank you Febs, and nls.  I was probably mistaken in looking at the pdf instead of the online version of the manual, between which there is a small discrepancy.  But, you're right; the info is there.

I will direct any follow up to a more appropriate place as suggested.  

Please excuse the digression.  Back to this topic, I like Llorean's suggestion:

Navi: "Start a new playlist with the selected song" (or in this folder, if start with selected is disabled)
Right: Insert highlighted (Not Insert Next or Insert Last, just generic Insert, this would also do one-song playlists)
Rec-Long: Recording screen
Rec-Short: Queue (again neither Next or Last)


but change
Rec-Short: Playlist menu

or append

Right-Long: Playlist menu  

The Right-Long option only saves one short button push, so I'm not as keen on it as using Rec-Short for the job.  It does, however, offer possible unification, albeit only for a small shortcut.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Llorean on January 23, 2007, 07:16:23 PM
I prefer Right-Long for that, actually, since I'd really like Right-Long to NOT go several folders down and launch (or insert) something.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: rossic on January 23, 2007, 07:22:18 PM
I am running a month old build where Right-Long doesn't enter a folder.  Thus, this feature could be a shortcut to the Playlist menu acting on entire folders as well as single songs.  

Is that consistent with current builds?
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Llorean on January 23, 2007, 07:23:38 PM
Sorry, I misread, I thought you meant "Playlist View" rather than "Playlist Menu"
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: LinusN on January 24, 2007, 02:17:32 AM

Thank you Febs, and nls.  I was probably mistaken in looking at the pdf instead of the online version of the manual, between which there is a small discrepancy.

Please point out the discrepancy, so we can fix it.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: rossic on January 24, 2007, 04:06:17 AM

Sorry, I misread, I thought you meant "Playlist View" rather than "Playlist Menu"

It was mainly my fault for not calling it by it's proper name of "Playlist submenu."  Sorry.

I hate to continue my mistaken digression, so this is my last tangent statement in this thread.  
LinusN,
I was mistaken about it being a "discrepancy."  There are two different parts, the Playlist Submenu (4.1.3) and "Working with playlists" (4.4),  that are redundant in many ways, and can be consolidated to be more clear.  My mistake was that I read a different part of the manual that regards the subject, but does not explain in detail.  I am currently correcting the issue, and when I have something to show for it, I will apply my suggestions (and files) to flyspray for evaluation by more qualified people.  I figure if it's something I can do, I'd like to help.  I just hope we get someone to start programming the requests in this thread!  ;D
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: goffa on January 29, 2007, 09:28:41 AM
Pablored, ruberglove's patch currently does not support the ipod. I don't have an ipod, but i could attempt to get it working if you'd test.

I currently use both the click insert patch and left to wps. I love both. Why we can't just have a menu option to toggle them on/off is beyond me. Until then, i'll keep patching, hoping, and waiting.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: pablored on January 30, 2007, 03:05:11 PM
goffa: That would be great!  Sounds like you have similar ideas with navigation.  I will have to either get set up on my mac for compiling or build another linux box for a development/compile environment.  Ironically, the reason I got a mac was to stop me messing under the hood of the OS so to speak, I get a little caught up in coding/theming and lose days.  

With Rockbox I can imagine a more modular future, with plentiful compile time options.  Imagination is free and easy.  
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: goffa on February 04, 2007, 11:39:00 PM
http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/2653

I updated the patch for the ipod. Test it and let me know if it works. I got it to compile at least
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: pablored on February 05, 2007, 04:03:37 PM
Oh yes, working on my Nano.  Thanks.  I like the user configurable button, means it is all optional.  

I thought I was having a slight issue, but then I realised I had not re-enabled the recursive directory adding option.  Doh.  All great so far, will test more over the next few days.  

The added bonus is it has forced me to get the dev environment sorted, which was a piece of cake on a mac... the only additional step was a symbolic link from gmake -> make.  And then the automatic script worked fine.  

I can see i'm going to enjoy patching and tinkering.  



Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: pablored on February 05, 2007, 04:26:35 PM
I've just noticed it does not save the status of the centre button after shutdown.  It reverts to the original functionality which is a bit of a problem.  
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: goffa on February 06, 2007, 10:26:49 AM
yeah.. has to do with settings.c i need to look into that... i still don't know what i'm doing :)..
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: JdGordon on February 06, 2007, 06:59:55 PM
add it to settings_list.c for that
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: goffa on February 07, 2007, 10:27:24 AM
I'll give it a whirl in the next couple of days.
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: Mmmm on February 11, 2007, 09:50:22 AM
I think I might go mad if pushing right didn't go up the directory structure and select a file any more. I only ever use right for this function and never the Navi key.

I would personally rather not have the insert key function at all than have 'right' insert and 'Navi' select (that's for my H140 anyway)!
The other way around (as in Rubbergloves click insert patch) I would love, but I'd be much happier leaving it as it is than messing with the 'right' key.

Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: goffa on February 11, 2007, 09:32:58 PM
right is touchy, you'd only want it  to be  insert from the lowest level.

It would be nice to be able to customize that as well though.  But only under the circumstance that there was a queue and play immediately option in the menu of options.

Select still erases the current playlist. But having center is more important than fighting to have both configurable at this point
Title: Re: Playlist: Centre button or Right could Insert instead of Play?
Post by: nick_karstedt on March 05, 2007, 10:43:02 PM

I've actually spoken in favour of Select selecting and Right inserting in the past (right's MUCH easier to accidentally hit on say H100 series anyway, but also easy to hit multiple times quickly for inserting several files).


That has my vote  ;)