Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => User Interface and Voice => Topic started by: Rincewind on July 23, 2006, 07:45:57 AM

Title: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Rincewind on July 23, 2006, 07:45:57 AM
I would like to start a discussion about the future use of the record button on Hxx series.

At the moment the button does nothing in WPS, nothing in File Tree and nothing in menus. There are some patches around that use the record button to view the sncviewer, to access album art, queue songs etc...
I wrote a patch ("Record button configuration (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/5555)") that enables you to choose what the record button does via a settings menu entry.

I heard that some people think that the record button shouldn't be configurable by the user and that it should have a purpose that has to be agreed on.

My opinion is, that customization is a good thing that sets rockbox apart from other firmwares (WPS!). There are so many ideas from users how this additional button that iriver gave us should be used that I think that most users are happy if we give them some actions to choose from.

I would like to hear ideas and suggestions especially from developers.
If a solution can be found in this thread, then I won't argue about my patch again  ;D.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Llorean on July 23, 2006, 11:15:12 AM
The way I see it, Record is NOT an extra button. 'Extra' describes buttons like the F1 - F3 soft buttons on the Archos devices. And even those have hard-coded functions in Rockbox, the quick menus.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: XavierGr on July 23, 2006, 02:25:36 PM
We have to decide on the usability of buttons.
I don't like keys that do nothing, IMHO it is a waste.

On the other hand configurable buttons is a big story, that needs adrressing in many aspects of Rockbox. I can't say, though, that I am against it or with it.

As I said earlier in a previous thread, I think that keymaps must be discussed from scratch. Too many buttons, so many functions. So we need to talk about it.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Llorean on July 23, 2006, 02:35:57 PM
I think that if there is *any* configurability, it should be very, very limited. Like, perhaps for Record, short-press is Record and Long-press is FM, but those can be swapped. For people who will never use their device for recording. But even that seems unnecessary, since a long press isn't particularly harder than a short.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Mikerman on July 23, 2006, 07:16:20 PM
This one seems easy to me:  quick press, A-B (the current process is too cumbersome); long press, record.  Or, with a configurable option.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Llorean on July 23, 2006, 09:15:21 PM
Changing A-B to one button removes functionality though.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Mikerman on July 23, 2006, 10:25:07 PM
But couldn't a quick press call it up and set the A point, and a second press set the B point, thereby setting the loop easily? I think that's the major functionality, and the ease of use would seem to make up for anything else. 

In the alternative, a quick press could call up an A-B screen where quick presses could set the A-B points, but other functionality could also exist.

Of the 2, I would prefer the former, as A-B looping typically is an immediate thing, and I can't think of other functionality that is needed enough to override that.  But perhaps others can. 
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Llorean on July 23, 2006, 10:32:04 PM
The fact is though with our current means you can change a B point multiple times without ever re-setting the A (or vice versa) and you lose that with a one-button method.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Mikerman on July 23, 2006, 10:49:01 PM
Well, I guess that could be done with the second approach in my post (my reason for offering it).  I guess I wonder, however:  do people use that (that is, a movable A and B point), and much?  I just can't think of how or how much, such that the former approach with its immediate availability (how I think A-B looping typically is used) seems more useful to me.

If moveable A and B points are important and the former approach is the preferred option, I guess a key option could come into play to preserve it--e.g. if the A-B loop is set, play+left/right moves the A-B points.

Another nice thing with the former approach, for those wanting the backlight option above:  matters conceivably could be set so that if a second tap for the B point is not made within x amount of tme, the A-B option simply is cancelled.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Llorean on July 23, 2006, 10:51:16 PM
People have written *just* to thank us for allowing the movement of one point instead of requiring both. So yes, people do appreciate it.

That being said, if you popped up a screen, then it becomes *more* complicated to use than the current method which is just a button combo.

And I do believe play+left/right only sets A-B while that mode is set. Are you saying you can set the loop points when not in A-B repeat mode right now?
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Mikerman on July 23, 2006, 11:22:39 PM
No, I was suggesting the latter point for a revised system, as I had suggested as possibilities.

A REC button system (either one), IMHO, is easier than the current system, in which one has to already have selected the A-B loop option and then has to use a cumbersome 2-button/2-hand press (not easily done in a car, for example).  Again, it seems to me that much A-B use is at the moment, making a one-handed REC button system advantageous.  And if movable A/B points could be added to that as I suggested (that is, if the loop is set, play +left/right moves the A-B points), everyone is covered!

And great to hear that people like the movable A/B points!
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Rincewind on July 24, 2006, 10:41:30 AM
just the few posts in this thread up to now prove, that everybody has a different view on what the record button should do.

btw, my favorite for a fixed action is short press goes playlist viewer, long press rec screen.

I don't think we give the user too much power (or too much complexity) if we give them a few well considered options to choose from with resonable defaults set.

A complete rework of the button code with keymaps would be the best in terms of extentability, but up to then something along the lines of my patch is a nice thing to have imho. And it doesen't change much code, so it is easy to remove and replace with something better in the far future.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Rincewind on August 21, 2006, 12:16:51 PM
*push*

any comments, suggestions or conclusions from main devs (or others)?

If "view current playlist" and "recording screen" are accepted by the people who have to agree on new features, I would do a patch that does this.
If custumization is wanted (like the poll suggests), I am more than happy to update my record config patch to current cvs and simplify it a bit.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Llorean on August 21, 2006, 03:28:35 PM
I would suggest creating a simple "View Current Playlist" on light tought, and "Recording Screen" on hold (yes, I've come to your way of thinking on that) and post it to the tracker, and then post a new thread for the discussion of customizing the light-touch possibilities.

I personally am in favor of limited customization of what it can do (Maybe 2 or 3 choices. A shortcut to FM screen, or Playlist View, or maybe a third option, and that's it, kinda thing.)
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Mikerman on August 21, 2006, 03:51:16 PM
I also like (as I posted elsewhere) the idea of a button that one could customize, at least to a degree--it just seems to reflect part of the spirit of Rockbox (and also meets expressed desires to a degree).
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Jillorious on August 21, 2006, 04:30:51 PM
Well, i'd like it to be a a-b repeat button, much like in the original iriver firmware (although moving 1 point without the other IS useful, i still think that having a dedicated button is even more useful). As for the long press, IMHO it should be a favourites button that brings up a new screen of options (a bit difficult to explain, but much like the nokia phones' 'go to' button).
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Jillorious on August 21, 2006, 05:18:23 PM
Another nice thing with the former approach, for those wanting the backlight option...
can anybody explain to me why people should want a dedicated backlight button? I've seen it many times throughout the forums. Why dont they just set the 'first keypress enables backlight only' to on (as i did)?
p.s. Just thought something stupid: if a a-b repeat option will somehow be implemented in the REC button in the end, then shouldn't the REC button be used for the quick menu and the a-b button be used for... Well, a-b repeat (and not vice versa)?


just my $.02
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 22, 2006, 11:31:42 AM
Quote
Why dont they just set the 'first keypress enables backlight only' to on (as i did)?
Agreed.

The REC button should go to the recording screen. Why?
Because in the end the button on the device is labelled "rec", it's got a red dot and using it for anything other than going to the recording screen is confusing and wierd.

Personally, I prefer the long press goes to recording and not the short press toi avoid accidental entry into the recording screen.

Having said that, a custimizable REC button with a default long-press of the REC button going to the recording screen would probably be the best since the poll seems to prefer customization.

just my $.02
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Jillorious on August 22, 2006, 12:17:06 PM
The REC button should go to the recording screen. Why?
Because in the end the button on the device is labelled "rec", it's got a red dot and using it for anything other than going to the recording screen is confusing and wierd.
But, as I've already mentioned above, we could swap it with the a-b button.
and actually [in accordance with my suggestion above that we should have a dedicated a-b repeat button] using a red-dot symbol for bringing up the quick menu isn't even remotely as 'confusing and weird' as using a a-b symbol for it.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Llorean on August 22, 2006, 05:29:45 PM
Well, since a short press of the A-B button currently brings up the normal menu, a long press for the Quick Menu is hardly illogical.

I very definitely feel setting a button solely for A-B repeat is a waste of a button. It would

A) Break the Rockbox button mapping relative to other targets. On other players the Menu button serves as Quick Menu when held, and if possible this should be preserved.

B) Uses up a single-press option on a feature that should not be considered primary use for the player. A-B repeat is a feature that will affect a relatively small percentage of users, and the two button is easy enough as it is. Adding a one button method would either require removal of functionality, or mean that we're wasting a single press AND two combos on a fairly minor function.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Rincewind on August 23, 2006, 11:25:15 AM
I have Llorean on my side for the stripped-down version with fixed settings, yeah!  ;D
I hope to have time to code it this weekend.
cross your fingers that the new button handling code really is easier now to program with ;)

Then I update my old patch, maybe remove some less used options (the second quickmenu was only added because I liked to see if I can code it).

It would be nice to have some input from those who used my patch what settings you used. If you have other ideas, please post them.

btw: I won't do the a-b thing, there is already a button combo for it and I don't use it personally.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Rincewind on August 26, 2006, 02:41:46 PM
I finally had the time to update my patch.
It works with current cvs now and uses the new button action system. I also removed the second quickmenu and cleaned the code.

These actions are available for Rec Short, Rec Long and Play + Rec:
* None (default)
* View the current playlist
* View the Plugin Dir
* View the Themes Dir
* Recording Screen
* Go to Recording Screen and start recording instantly (not available for Rec Short)

Get it here: Record Button Configuration Patch (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/5555)

I also made a simplified patch that has fixed options (view current playlist and recording screen)
This one should be ready for inclusion in CVS
Patch (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/5886)
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: drothenberger on August 26, 2006, 02:42:16 PM
can anybody explain to me why people should want a dedicated backlight button? I've seen it many times throughout the forums. Why dont they just set the 'first keypress enables backlight only' to on (as i did)?

I often use my H140 in the car with the remote. The 'first keypress enables backlight only' option is annoying in that setting since I have to look at the remote to see if the backlight is on. So, when I press a key, sometimes it doesn't do anything (backlight is off) and sometimes it does (backlight is on) and I have to take my eyes off the road to determine what will happen.

So, I prefer the existing functionality for the record button. I can leave 'first keypress...' off and know that when I press a button, it will do what I want, plus I have a way to enable the backlight to see what song is playing, etc.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Genre9mp3 on August 27, 2006, 05:49:09 AM
I think that most of the people would like the idea of having a "favorite action" button. Since the button action idea is now implemented in the CVS and things got easier for such implementation in the code (at least I hope that that's the case here) I think that this patch would worth getting into the official builds.

BTW, tell me if I'm wrong, but as I have understand it, these options work while in WPS only, right? If that's the case, then it would be also nice if we could have a hardcoded action for the Record button while in the Browser (eg. Directly enque selected file) and while in the Menu.

At least something should be done for the record button, It's just a waste as it is now.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Rincewind on August 27, 2006, 07:39:42 AM
Currently, my patch has the same actions in wps AND filebrowser.
It is easy to have different actions in filebrowser, I made different action variables (3xwps, 3x browser), currently they point to the same functions for wps and filebrowser.
The only thing that would be more work is the menu code.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: keuleJ on August 28, 2006, 02:00:21 AM
Quote from: Rincewind link=topic=5435.msg47351#msg47351
These actions are available for Rec Short, Rec Long and Play + Rec:
* None (default)
* View the current playlist
* View the Plugin Dir
* View the Themes Dir
* Recording Screen
* Go to Recording Screen and start recording instantly (not available for Rec Short)

I think the default should be Rec Long: Recording Screen, Rec Short: View current playlist
None should be available as an option, but isn't a good default imho.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Mikerman on August 31, 2006, 11:03:11 AM
If I had my way, there would be an option to bring up the radio, IF no other button press (such as a long press of play) were to be adopted for that; and an option to set and play an A-B loop through a quick press of REC.  (Yes, I know that this latter proposal is duplicative to other 2-handed button combinations requiring the setting of the quick screen as well, but this offers a faster mechanism to use the A-B looping feature and there are people who would find it of good use--and by having it as an alternative, it doesn't get in people's way, if they don't want it.)  

Of course, all of the above assumes that the amount of extra code would not be seen as bloat and that these proposals would not interfere with matters otherwise.
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Rincewind on August 31, 2006, 12:42:31 PM
I have thought about adding the FM-Screen to my patch, too.
Your A-B suggestion really would get in my way, because I want the record button for something that isn't currently there. Anyway, I don't know if my patch ever gets commited to cvs...

if you want a single ab-button, it should be possible to do this without adding much code, because in action.h there is this line:

ACTION_WPSAB_SINGLE, /* No targets use this, but leave in just-in-case! */

So you could add this to the Hxx-keymap and there is a chance that it works...
But, no chance to have me include this in my patch  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about the future use of the Record button
Post by: Mikerman on August 31, 2006, 05:21:01 PM
Thanks, and I know that my single-key A-B suggestion gets shot down left and right, sometimes for legitimate reasons.  ;)

I only mentioned it here thinking, it doesn't hurt to include it if it's an option.  And I truly have heard from some people who would like to see it.

Just a proposal; thanks--