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Rockbox General => Rockbox General Discussion => Topic started by: CT71 on April 07, 2013, 08:15:25 PM

Title: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 07, 2013, 08:15:25 PM
Hopefully someone can help me with this.  I've googled it, and I just can't find a solution to it.  I am a first time downloader, and everything was working fine until about 30 minutes into my initial listening, then all of a sudden the scrolling became extremely choppy and basically useless to use.  I have an iPod 5th Generation and would seriously love to keep Rockbox on there.

Thanks, CT
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: wodz on April 08, 2013, 01:47:45 AM
What kind of tracks were you listening to? Some files can stress (rather slow) cpu on ipod seriously.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 08, 2013, 02:51:08 AM
What do you mean what kind of tracks?  Just basic 192aac files.  There's only about 12 gigs of music on the ipod, been that way for about 8 years now. 
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 09, 2013, 04:36:48 PM
Awwww man, can someone PLEASE help.  I love Rockbox, but theres no way this is how it performs.  There'd be a million topics on Google about this if this were how it works.  Not sure if I need to do a complete uninstall/install again - I was really trying to avoid that with this forum post.  Just turned my Ipod on again and it became choppy after about ten seconds.  Theres absolutely nothing unusual about whats on my iPod.  Thanks, CT
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: bluebrother on April 09, 2013, 04:51:41 PM
Theres absolutely nothing unusual about whats on my iPod.

I don't have such problems on my Ipod so something needs to be unusual on your Ipod. At least compared to mine :)

For starters you could detail what scrolling is becoming choppy (scrolling in the file browser? Database? The scrolling lines in the WPS? Something else?) and post your configuration (the file /.rockbox/config.cfg)
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 09, 2013, 07:52:25 PM
Thank you.  I haven't actually tried scrolling through absolutely everything.  Once the choppiness started to happen while trying to go up and down through my artists/songs (which I believe is the database) I posted my question here on the forum.  Heck, if it were choppy with anything else I wouldn't even care - but choppiness through what is the actual meat and potatoes of why we all have ipods in the first place is something entirely different.  I can't get from Artist A to Artist F without it taking a small miracle.  Not sure what configuration it is.  I downloaded it about a month ago, so I'm guessing the latest version.  It says version 3.13 somewhere on my Rockbox.  Hope thats what you're looking for.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: saratoga on April 09, 2013, 11:30:28 PM
  Not sure what configuration it is.  I downloaded it about a month ago, so I'm guessing the latest version.  It says version 3.13 somewhere on my Rockbox.  Hope thats what you're looking for.

He means the contents of the file /.rockbox/config.cfg.

Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 10, 2013, 11:24:03 AM
Oh, sorry.  Can you tell me where I can find it? 
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: bluebrother on April 10, 2013, 12:53:30 PM
Oh, sorry.  Can you tell me where I can find it? 

On the player, in the path I mentioned.  Furthermore, if it's the database that is slow you can try enabling the "Load to RAM" option. Disk accesses are slow, so that might be your problem.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 11, 2013, 12:40:18 AM
Ok, I already did have the load to ram enabled.  And as for the config.cfg path, I don't see any path on my Rockbox that has that path.  I can't find a single tab that have any of those words you mentioned - file, Rockbox, config or cfg.  The closest tab I can find is the "Files" tab which doesn't really have anything important in it.  So I'm seriously not trying to be too much of an idiot here, but if you could tell me exactly where this cfg path is I'd be happy to show it to you.  Thanks.

Edit - I was just playing around with my ipod, and it might be that the choppy scrolling only happens when I'm playing a song.  Even if I paused the song and scolled the database, it was not choppy.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: cereal_killer on April 11, 2013, 01:37:45 AM
The config.cfg file is located in the .rockbox folder that should be in the root of your player. So plug your player to your computer. Open it in a file manager. Open the .rockbox folder and there you will find the config.cfg file. Open this file using a text editor and you will see all your settings. You can also attach this file to a post in this forum.

The .rockbox folder might be hidden, so make sure to have hidden folders shown.

Does this choppy scrolling get better after some time of use?

Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: saratoga on April 11, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
And as for the config.cfg path, I don't see any path on my Rockbox that has that path.  I can't find a single tab that have any of those words you mentioned - file, Rockbox, config or cfg. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_(computing)
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: soap on April 11, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
How many bands of EQ do you have on?
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 12, 2013, 01:05:07 AM
Sorry guys, I'm gonna have to try and figure out this cfg thing on my day off.  I've pluged it in, I've looked everywhere, I've unhidden crap, but I just don't know why the friggin' hell I just can't find it!!  I've looked in the one Rockbox folder I have on my computer, but theres just an installer app and thats it.  If I truly can't find it on my day off by googling the crap out of all this, I'll come back and just give up and say I'm an idiot and I just can't find it.

@soap
I have the EQ enabled, which to me means all the bands are enabled.  So I'm not terribly clear on that.  If you have a 6 band, 10 band, or a 12 band equalizer and then you turn it on - everything is turned on.  Am I missing something in the terminology here?  As far as the EQ goes - it is truly THE one and only thing I downloaded Rockbox for.  This is the one feature I wanted and cannot live without by turning it off if for some reason this is the problem.  If Apple got off there stupid ass and just put even the simplest of EQ's on thier ipods I'd go out right now and buy that ipod.  Kills me, cannot be that hard for Apple to put a measely 5 band eq on there. 
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: bluebrother on April 12, 2013, 03:01:50 AM
Sorry guys, I'm gonna have to try and figure out this cfg thing on my day off.  I've pluged it in, I've looked everywhere, I've unhidden crap, but I just don't know why the friggin' hell I just can't find it!!  I've looked in the one Rockbox folder I have on my computer, but theres just an installer app and thats it.

You need to look on the player, not on your PC. See the attached screenshot.

As far as the EQ goes - it is truly THE one and only thing I downloaded Rockbox for.  This is the one feature I wanted and cannot live without by turning it off if for some reason this is the problem.  If Apple got off there stupid ass and just put even the simplest of EQ's on thier ipods I'd go out right now and buy that ipod.  Kills me, cannot be that hard for Apple to put a measely 5 band eq on there. 

The EQ requires quite a bit of processing power. The more bands you change to a value different from 0 the more power it requires. If you have all bands changed to non-zero and experience choppy scrolling this is a performance problem -- the Ipods CPU simply doesn't have enough power to do all that. Processing power is also likely to be (at least one) reason why Apple didn't put an EQ in there ...
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: soap on April 12, 2013, 04:54:00 AM
I have the EQ enabled, which to me means all the bands are enabled.  So I'm not terribly clear on that.  If you have a 6 band, 10 band, or a 12 band equalizer and then you turn it on - everything is turned on.  Am I missing something in the terminology here?

As bluebrother mentions above me, only those bands which have a gain set to a non-zero number are actually enabled, and thus requiring CPU resources.

As far as the EQ goes - it is truly THE one and only thing I downloaded Rockbox for.  This is the one feature I wanted and cannot live without by turning it off if for some reason this is the problem..

Nobody is asking you to turn it off permanently, but you came to us asking for assistance.  All I'm asking of you is thirty seconds of your time - less time than I've given you so far - to turn off the EQ and see if the problem goes away.  If the problem goes away (which I'm pretty sure it will) we can go deeper and find a middle-ground configuration which works for you.

The iPod's have a measly old dual-core ARM processor going at 80Mhz and the second core is barely used.  Rockbox has more than enough features which when all enabled would make that processor beg for mercy.  Those features aren't going to be removed simply because one device out of the many many Rockbox runs on can't do everything at once, we leave the decision on what compromises to make up to the user and in doing so expect a level of cognizance on the part of the user.  We support that understanding as best as possible, through a very active IRC channel, a very robust manual, a wiki, and these here forums.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 13, 2013, 02:29:56 PM
Ok, it is the EQ - I turned it off and all scrolling is fine.  Is there a work around to this feature???  Like I said, it is THE only feature I wanted - I'm completely and utterly bummed by this.  Damn, this just plain sucks.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: bluebrother on April 13, 2013, 02:51:38 PM
Well, if you post the configuration file I've asked for earlier people can see what functions you have enabled and give advise what is requiring most CPU power you could turn off. But until then it's mostly guessing ...

Plus, you can use an audio format that takes less processing power to decode. Which doesn't necessarily mean that this will be sufficient.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 13, 2013, 04:15:14 PM
@soap
My apologies, my response was not directed at yours - I either posted at the same time as yours or I didn't go on to page 2 and see yours.  Either way, I had not seen your response when I responded to bluebrother.

@bluebrother
Thanks, Geez, I FINALLY did find what your looking for.  But now I've run into other problems, and now I'm just getting more and more embarrassed at each passing post because I'm afraid I just don't know how to do anything your going to ask for me to do.  Example, now that I've found the cfg file, I've sat here for the last 45 minutes trying to figure out how to get it to show up on the post.  I guess I'll just have to try and figure out how to delete CPU intensive things on my own now that I atleast know this can be done.  Or I'll just have to go back to my regular ipod.  I didn't mean to waste anyones time here, but if I can't even figure out how to get the cfg file that I opened with my Notepad onto this post, like I said, it's just gonna get embarrassing for me, and frustrating for you.  Thanks, I'll try and figure this out hopefully.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: soap on April 13, 2013, 11:16:47 PM
Copy and paste it inside the code formatting option in the message composition settings, or attach it using the "attachments and other options" part of the message composition window.

Either way show us your "EQ on" settings which cause problems.


Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: bluebrother on April 14, 2013, 12:38:09 AM
Example, now that I've found the cfg file, I've sat here for the last 45 minutes trying to figure out how to get it to show up on the post.

After pressing "Reply" at the end of the thread you'll see a form. In that "Post reply" form you're using for replying click on the "Attachments and other options" link. You'll get some additional fields below. Press the "Browse" button next to the "Attach" field. Use the file chooser that comes up navigate to the file you already found. Select the file and press Ok. The "Attach" field will now show the path to the file (in my screenshot above this would be "E:\.rockbox\config.cfg". Write your post and post it.

Or open config.cfg with Notepad, select the whole contents (Ctrl-A), then copy (Ctrl-C) it. Close Notepad, head over to your browser and paste (Ctrl-V) with the cursor at the desired location in your reply.

I can't help but wonder how you managed to install Rockbox ...
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 15, 2013, 03:04:05 PM
"I can't help but wonder how you managed to install Rockbox ..."

Ain't that the truth.
So, this is my cfg file.  If there's more to it that you need let me know.  I'd be surprised that I got it right on the first go :


# .cfg file created by rockbox 3.13 - http://www.rockbox.org

volume: -52
eq enabled: on
eq low shelf filter: 20, 7, -5
eq peak filter 1: 64, 10, -5
eq peak filter 2: 115, 10, -15
eq peak filter 3: 250, 10, -15
eq peak filter 4: 500, 10, -15
eq peak filter 5: 1000, 10, -5
eq peak filter 6: 2000, 10, 5
eq peak filter 7: 4000, 10, 20
eq peak filter 8: 8000, 10, 15
eq high shelf filter: 16000, 7, 35
tagcache_ram: on
tagcache_autoupdate: on
fms: -
iconset: -
viewers iconset: /.rockbox/icons/viewers.6x8x16.bmp
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: saratoga on April 15, 2013, 03:12:38 PM
Well you've got way more EQ bands on then you can reasonably support given the CPU power available, and you've picked questionable settings that may distort your audio.

I would probably just delete your config file and start over.  Should fix your lag and probably the next question you were going to ask about why your audio sounds weird :)

-------

So when I said that adding more EQ bands was a bad idea because people were going to do stupid things with them, this is what I meant.  I think we should probably disable the extra bands on slower targets and go back to the old system. 
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 15, 2013, 05:04:36 PM
Thanks Saratoga.  But obviously I have questions.  Stupid ones, maybe - but still some questions never the less.  First off, is there a player that has enough CPU power to support a ten band EQ?  I'm not about to go buy that player, but just wondering if a ten band EQ is outrageously so over the top, what player CAN actually support it?  Second, these EQ settings were never intended to be my final settings - when I loaded Rockbox and turned it on I just started playing around with it - how does it sound, how does it look, how does it sound with the EQ on, those sorta things.  Then the scrolling became choppy and I posted here - so I'm not even using the ipod right now because of this.  The settings are nowhere near even close to distorted, brickwalled, or funky sounding though.  But heres the thing I do have questions on - since basically all I want from Rockbox is to use the full 10 bands and to just simply play music - every last other extra, or function, could be deleted for my purposes - is there a way to do this?  Instead of disabling the EQ, or limiting the use to like 3 bands - can I disable like EVERYTHING else?
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: torne on April 15, 2013, 05:27:36 PM
There isn't really anything else unless you are using very unusual settings. When playing audio, the only things using any measurable amount of CPU are the actual decoding process (which is codec-dependent: some codecs need more cpu power than others), and any DSP effects you have enabled like the EQ. By default no DSP is on at all.

(One other thing that needs a lot of cpu is the peak meter on the while playing screen, but few themes have this enabled, and the default theme doesn't have one).
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: saratoga on April 15, 2013, 05:40:11 PM
Thanks Saratoga.  But obviously I have questions.  Stupid ones, maybe - but still some questions never the less.  First off, is there a player that has enough CPU power to support a ten band EQ?

Sure, anything made in the last 5 years or so should be fine. 

  But heres the thing I do have questions on - since basically all I want from Rockbox is to use the full 10 bands and to just simply play music - every last other extra, or function, could be deleted for my purposes - is there a way to do this? 

Well IIUC, 4 of your bands are basically duplicates that could be removed, 3 are essentially doing nothing (0.5 dB correction), and 1 is probably useless (boosting frequencies you can't hear).  So you're really only using 2 bands worth of actual EQ.  The two that are doing something are boosting frequencies, and therefore probably distorting.  Of course the adjustments are so small you probably can't hear any of the bands, so maybe you didn't notice that yet.

With that in mind I would probably question the extent to which you even want to use EQ at all, and certainly I would not believe that you actually have a use for 10 full bands.  It seems like you probably would be best with the default settings.

I think the problem here is that we assumed that users understood how to use an EQ, when many do not.  So in effect we give them just enough rope to hang themselves. 
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 15, 2013, 06:28:25 PM
@torne
So basically I'm screwed is what your saying - because I'm basically using Rockbox straight outta the box, except for the EQ.

@saratoga
Dude, I'm not trying to sound pissy here - if you want to help then I'm cool with that - but I told you these were not final settings at all, just turned on Rockbox and started messing around with the EQ to make sure I felt it was worth keeping Rockbox installed.  It immediately became choppy, so I just stopped everything right then and there and never went back to the EQ.  With that being said, I may not know shit about computers, but please keep your musical listening knowledge, or your own personal musical listening experiences out of the equation.  I think your getting ones computer knowledge mixed up with ones knowledge on anything else the world has to offer.  They're not one in the same.  Even though these would not be the final settings - or hell, maybe not even close to them - I CAN hear a difference, they are NOT distorting, and I DO understand the technical jargon with basically anything related to the reproduction of music.  Notepad, Word, CPU power - yeah, defintely not so much.  I only tried my ipod with a pair of Sennheisers because thats what I listen to them through - but I also have a pair of AKG's, Beyerdynamic's, JVC's, V-Moda's, and Creative Aurvana's - and if I plugged in any one of those, I'd get a COMPLETELY different sound - heck, maybe I would even get some distortion.  Point is, don't just assume things are happening the way you think they are, or should.

Like I said, not trying to sound pissy here - if my ipod cannot handle the EQ being on, and there are not other things on Rockbox I can disable - if these are truly the end all be all answers, then obviously I'll be stuck with the decision of whether or not the choppiness and the importance of the EQ are things that I can go forward with.  I gather, from what is being said, that in the end the only two solutions I may have are - EQ or no EQ.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: saratoga on April 15, 2013, 06:47:23 PM
started messing around with the EQ to make sure I felt it was worth keeping Rockbox installed.  It immediately became choppy, so I just stopped everything right then and there and never went back to the EQ.

I am a first time downloader, and everything was working fine until about 30 minutes into my initial listening, then all of a sudden the scrolling became extremely choppy and basically useless to use.

You know, if you realized it was the EQ setting that caused this problem, you might have avoided wasting so much of everyone's time with this thread.  Or at least mentioned it!

Even though these would not be the final settings - or hell, maybe not even close to them - I CAN hear a difference,

I didn't say you couldn't hear a difference and I believe you can.  Why are you even telling me this?

they are NOT distorting,

No, they probably are, you just don't notice it.  Any positive gain will almost certainly cause distortion, although it may not be obvious particularly for such small gain changes.  You shouldn't be doing that.  Perhaps this is a good time to look at the manual?

Like I said, not trying to sound pissy here - if my ipod cannot handle the EQ being on, and there are not other things on Rockbox I can disable - if these are truly the end all be all answers, then obviously I'll be stuck with the decision of whether or not the choppiness and the importance of the EQ are things that I can go forward with.  I gather, from what is being said, that in the end the only two solutions I may have are - EQ or no EQ.

This is absolutely ridiculous.  You don't have to choose between choppiness or EQ.  You're only having this problem because you're not using the EQ properly.  We added a 10 band option because some people wanted to try it on modern hardware where the CPU hit is pretty small.  But you don't actually have to use all those bands, and in fact you almost certainly do not want to.  Lots of pro parametric EQs only have 4 or 5 bands!  10 is a really, really large number of bands for a parametric device.  Its basically useless to have that many.  The fact that you even think you need them suggests that you are probably really, really confused.

So with that in mind, let me ask:  have you ever used a parametric EQ before?  Do you realize how they're different then more simple non-parametric devices? 
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: CT71 on April 15, 2013, 07:59:49 PM
"You know, if you realized it was the EQ setting that caused this problem, you might have avoided wasting so much of everyone's time with this thread.  Or at least mentioned it!"

Look, Saratoga, I'm not trying to get into any argument with you.  If you read every post from the start, I only found out a few posts ago that the EQ was the problem.  And from there all I asked if there was a workaround to this.  And now basically thats where everything stands.  I'm not looking for a miracle - if my ipod is a dinosaur and cant handle the CPU, then so be it.  If there are things on Rockbox I can disable to free up some power, then I'd like to know.  When I started the post, these are all things I was unaware of - I never would have suspected that the EQ feature was so taxing on my particular ipod - if I had known this from the beginning then I obviously wouldn't have played stupid and asked for help.  So in a nutshell, thats where I am right now.  I'll look into playing around with all the subsequent EQ settings and see what happens with each one from here.  Thanks - seriously, did not mean for it to go down this path.
Title: Re: Choppy scrolling
Post by: wodz on April 16, 2013, 02:02:13 AM
Quote
saratoga   [Saint]: Q is the width of the filter, if you can't control the width of the filter you need a lot of bands, if you can control the width of the filter you hardly need any bands

This qute from our IRC channel should give you a clue.