Rockbox Technical Forums

Rockbox Development => Feature Ideas => Topic started by: lolmaus on August 23, 2011, 11:03:15 AM

Title: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: lolmaus on August 23, 2011, 11:03:15 AM
The shortcut to return to WPS on Sansa Clip+ is Home+Select.

It has severe disadvantages:
1) It won't work on pause (works only "If there is an audio file playing (http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipplus/rockbox-buildch4.html#x7-400004.1.1)").
2) It is very unconvenient to press. It is difficult to press with one hand when the player is attached to your shirt/strap and impossible to press with one hand when you're holding it.
3) It is tricky: you should press Home prior to Select. Simultaneous press will fail.
4) It won't work from a submenu, only from the root of the main menu. :(

This renders the "return to WPS" shortcut unusable.

So each time i navigate my player, i have to press Home, then navigate to "Now Playing", then press Select. It's too unconvenient!

I think that a more handy shortcut should be introduced.

I've got a couple of suggestions:
1) Home button. Currently it returns to the main menu which can also be acheived by pressing Back a number of times.
2) Back button while in the top level of the main menu. Currently it does nothing.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mamanakis on August 24, 2011, 12:46:19 AM
A little clarification: I believe you are talking about the behavior while in the menu system as home+select is the key lock from the while playing screen.

To be more inline the the sansa intuitive interface it would make sense to use the home button. With the Sansa firmware pushing the home button from the menu system will return to the while playing screen. Currently in rockbox the home button returns to the previous screen, so as long as you have not pushed any other buttons, then pushing home will return one to the WPS. I don't know how other players are mapped keywise in rockbox, e.g., do all ports have the same home (or equivalent key) behavior. I think the best thing would be to make the interface intuitive for someone coming from the Sansa firmware (like myself) which it, the rockbox interface, is not. I would vote for having the home key lead to home from anywhere but home and lead to the now playing screen from home. At most you would be two key presses of the same key away from the now playing screen. Also, (like the original sansa firmware) I would have a timeout on anything but the WPS so that after a period of time with no key presses they WPS would reappear.

As far as key changes go, I also think that the select and submenu(down) buttons should be switched in the WPS. Currently short submenu does nothing and select brings up a menu. I have gotten used to (from Sansa firmware) pushing the select key to light the display after the backlight has turned off. Switching the keys would make short select do the same thing it did with sansa firmware and the submenu key would (gasp) bring up a submenu.

TLDR, make the interface intuitive for someone used to the original Sansa interface.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: saratoga on August 24, 2011, 01:14:20 AM
TLDR, make the interface intuitive for someone used to the original Sansa interface.

Generally we don't really care what the original firmware did on the device, although we are open to changing keymaps, at least in principle. 
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: lolmaus on August 24, 2011, 02:04:25 AM
I would vote for having the home key lead to home from anywhere but home and lead to the now playing screen from home.

That's great! I adhere.

select and submenu(down) buttons should be switched in the WPS. Currently short submenu does nothing and select brings up a menu. ... short select do the same thing it did with sansa firmware and the submenu key would (gasp) bring up a submenu.

Nice point. Less vital but reasonable!
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mamanakis on August 24, 2011, 09:00:23 AM
Also, as you mentioned, the back key from the home screen does nothing. It could be made to do what the home key currently does from the home screen -- go back to the last menu viewed. This is good on the intuitive side because the back button would take you back to where you were.

I recognize that it does not really matter what the original Sansas firmware did. The point I was getting at by referring back to it was that it would aid use and adoption of rockbox by people coming from the original software.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: [Saint] on August 24, 2011, 09:12:14 AM
I recognize that it does not really matter what the original Sansas firmware did. The point I was getting at by referring back to it was that it would aid use and adoption of rockbox by people coming from the original software.

Feel free to submit a patch...


[St.]
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on August 24, 2011, 10:01:00 AM
Keep in mind, sometimes the reason certain things aren't done isn't obvious. For example, if you press "Left" enough times you end up at the main menu. I'm not sure what you're calling "back" but it sounds like you're suggesting if you press "left" in the main menu it should take you somewhere. There's a reason it doesn't - for blind users it's convenient to have a reliable way to get to the main menu, because the "menu" button doesn't work everywhere.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: lolmaus on August 24, 2011, 11:30:13 AM
Llorean, if Left is a method to return to the root of Main menu, then make Home return to WPS instead of doing the same as Left. Ain't WPS the home?!
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: bluebrother on August 24, 2011, 02:58:16 PM
No.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Artursk on August 25, 2011, 01:37:01 PM
As I see it the most convenient way would be:
Home - main menu
back button in main menu - wps
holding back button anywhere else - also wps
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 01, 2011, 12:18:47 PM
In the original firmware this is handled much more eligant: Pressing 'home' twice brings you back to the playback screen (the first press takes you from the file list to the menu, the second press exits the menu).
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 01, 2011, 12:27:10 PM
One error in thinking is that "exiting the menu gets you to the playback screen." The playback screen is not the main screen. It's more like the main menu is, and the playback screen is something "on top" of it, that you can see when playback is happening.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 01, 2011, 12:30:47 PM
Knowing the structure of the software and the menus very well you may call this an "error in thinking", but I think many users would appreciate, and find logical, if "exiting the menu gets you to the playback screen."

Could it be made configurable where exiting the menu takes you?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: lolmaus on September 01, 2011, 12:32:30 PM
Llorean,

imagine you're cycling and wish to switch to next track. You press Next, but nothing happens. You're on the menu! You try to press two keys simultaneously with one hand to get to WPS but you fail. You try to get to WPS by choosing the appropriate menu item, but you can't find it. You put the player next to your eyes but your hand is shaking as you move and you can barely see the items. Finally you get cursor to the WPS menu item... ah, a baby on the road! You crash.

How much simplier it'd be if you could just press Home to get to the point from where you can actually control your player.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: saratoga on September 01, 2011, 12:37:43 PM
In the original firmware this is handled much more eligant: Pressing 'home' twice brings you back to the playback screen (the first press takes you from the file list to the menu, the second press exits the menu).

This seems like an acceptable change, although I'm not sure if we allow double click button actions?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 01, 2011, 12:42:56 PM
I was not proposing a double click action. Actually in the OF this works even with a long time between the two clicks.

The first press takes you from the file list (or elsewhere) to the main menu, the second press exits the menu into the WPS.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 01, 2011, 12:43:36 PM
Could it be made configurable where exiting the menu takes you?
You missed my point. You can't exit the menu. You can open other things from the menu, but there's no "exit." It's the bottom level.

You try to get to WPS by choosing the appropriate menu item, but you can't find it. You put the player next to your eyes but your hand is shaking as you move and you can barely see the items. Finally you get cursor to the WPS menu item... ah, a baby on the road! You crash.

I'd suggest not to leave the WPS while cycling. Or learn about the voice UI if you insist in entering menus while doing something that requires your sight. Why would you be in them if you're in a situation where it's unsafe? If you've just accidentally pressed "home" from the WPS pressing it a second time takes you back. The only time it doesn't work to take you back is if you've been browsing outside the main menu, which you shouldn't be while cycling in the first place (and if you are, surely if you can browse and select songs, you can browse and select a menu entry).

Just as an added note, I personally have absolutely no problems returning to the WPS with the current setup. As a tip, flip the clip over so that your thumb is on the back and place one finger over "home" and one over "select." Yes, I realize this isn't a very normal way of holding the device, but you're trying to do it one handed while riding a bicycle. You'll have to do it by feel anyway, and it's pretty trivial to do it this way.

Currently pressing the home button once takes you back to the main menu, and a second time returns you to wherever you were just at. In many cases, if you accidentally left the WPS you can just return immediately to it.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 01, 2011, 12:50:57 PM
You missed my point. You can't exit the menu. You can open other things from the menu, but there's no "exit." It's the bottom level.

I agree. Nevertheless pressing "menu" when you are in the menu can trigger an action. I'd be happy if that was going to the WPS, or if it was configurable, for example

(a) go to WPS when "menu" key pressed in main menu
(b) when "menu" key pressed in main menu, go to whatever was active before the menu was entered

I think (b) is the current implementation?


Post Merge: September 01, 2011, 12:54:05 PM
By pressing "select" during playback you can enter the file list. If, after browsing, you decide not to change to a new track, the only way of getting back to the playback screen without interrupting the song being played is to navigate to the main menu and select 'Now Playing'.

So, (c): when "menu" key pressed in main menu, go to whatever was active before the menu was entered, BUT go to the WPS if the file list was active when the menu was entered

Probably too complicated, but I think that is the OF behaviour.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 01, 2011, 12:54:20 PM
Yes. And Rockbox controls are not traditionally configurable. It's more likely to be simply changed than made configurable. But as I said, in most cases of an accidental press you can return to the WPS. In the cases of an intentional press, returning to the WPS already isn't hard. It's not a particularly strong reason to make an exception for this one device.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: lolmaus on September 01, 2011, 12:55:18 PM
Llorean, on OF i used to press Next to switch to next track. I believe it's perfectly safe.

On Rockbox, i can't do that. The player might be in different modes. This fact forces me to investigate in what mode it currently is prior to doing anything.

This is wrong. Donald Norman "The Design of Everyday Things" or Victor Papanek "Design for the Real World" both state that it's a very bad idea.

Why should someone need to do a finger trick to obtain an ability to switch to next track? That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 01, 2011, 12:59:26 PM
Llorean, on OF i used to press Next to switch to next track. I believe it's perfectly safe.

Rockbox is not the OF. It would be practically impossible to browse Rockbox while reserving the Next/Prev keys for track navigation. The fact that you believe it's perfectly safe is the error here. One could just as easily say "I expect Play/Pause to always Pause." The fact that you don't wish to learn how to use Rockbox is not a compelling reason to change how Rockbox works. Return to the WPS when you're done with non-WPS functions and you'll have no problems. You don't *need* to do a finger trick to change tracks, you need to do it if you're out of the WPS and desire for some reason to return to the WPS without looking at your player or using the voice UI. Just like you'd need to press a button with your proposed solution as well. If you learn to return to the WPS after you're done outside it, you'll never have a situation that you'd have with *both* implementations - that of pressing Next Track and having something unexpected happen.

Meanwhile if you get into the habit of not returning to the WPS, "next track" could start a new playlist, or change a setting, or do other things. It's simply not a wise idea for you to get into the habit of pressing it without knowing the state of your device, independently of your suggestion for changing the controls. "I do things I shouldn't do, so you should change the controls in a way that doesn't even make them less harmful" is hardly a strong argument.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 01, 2011, 01:07:56 PM
Short form: The Rockbox behaviour is reasonable, but some users would like it to be more comfortable.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 01, 2011, 01:09:58 PM
This seems like an acceptable change, although I'm not sure if we allow double click button actions?

Although it's not what he suggested, it does seem a better alternative than the current two-button method. We used to have short then long "next" to skip folders. I don't see why short then long "home" couldn't be "resume playback."
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: saratoga on September 01, 2011, 02:34:17 PM
I was not proposing a double click action. Actually in the OF this works even with a long time between the two clicks.

The first press takes you from the file list (or elsewhere) to the main menu, the second press exits the menu into the WPS.

Since home already brings you back to whatever your previous screen was, thats probably not going to be acceptable. 
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: pabouk on September 02, 2011, 07:01:24 AM
I'd suggest not to leave the WPS while cycling...
Llorean, sometimes you have to leave the WPS. The most frequent example in my case is stopping playback. (I cannot use pause as it does not store bookmark when the player turns off automatically after a delay.) I think there should be simple way how to get to the WPS and how to resume playback.

IMHO the current function of the home button which alternates between two location is not so useful. I almost do no use it and I was always wondering who considers the alternating function so useful. In the past I was using Rockbox on H100 series and there was a single button for resuming playback/going to the WPS.

Although it's not what he suggested, it does seem a better alternative than the current two-button method. We used to have short then long "next" to skip folders. I don't see why short then long "home" couldn't be "resume playback."
Good idea.

By the way: do you think it is useful to have both stop and pause on flash players? I think pause is unnecessary as resuming playback is instantaneous on such players.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 02, 2011, 12:59:11 PM
Llorean, sometimes you have to leave the WPS. The most frequent example in my case is stopping playback. (I cannot use pause as it does not store bookmark when the player turns off automatically after a delay.) I think there should be simple way how to get to the WPS and how to resume playback.
Why do you need to bookmark while cycling? I mean, what's the situation where you'd want to stop playback, and then resume it, without looking at the player?

Quote
IMHO the current function of the home button which alternates between two location is not so useful. I almost do no use it and I was always wondering who considers the alternating function so useful. In the past I was using Rockbox on H100 series and there was a single button for resuming playback/going to the WPS.
The H100 has an extra button to spare for this. The common approach so far has been that if we "lose" a button, rather than shuffling other button features around to make room for it, we put its features either in free areas (like an extra long press of Play being Stop/Power Down on some devices) or in combos. It doesn't really make sense for a button labeled "Home" to take you to the WPS in the first place. There's nothing about the button that would indicate it does this, and the common Rockbox function for the menu button is the alternating behaviour. To some degree it's beneficial to have button functions stay the same between devices. If you have an iPod and then get a Clip+, you know that the "Home" button does what the "Menu" button on the iPod did, and there's little more to learn about the issue. There are reasons to override this, and that's why I've been asking questions about the use cases to explore how bad the situation is here. I own a Clip+ and haven't had severe issues with it at all. There's a lot of complications with having a button that, when pressed from some screens resumes playback, and when pressed from others does not, since it makes it easier to accidentally resume when you may not want to. The short->long combo, much like the current one, will always resume (from screens that can be resumed from) and so isn't as prone to accidental behaviour.

Quote
By the way: do you think it is useful to have both stop and pause on flash players? I think pause is unnecessary as resuming playback is instantaneous on such players.
Pause allows you to do things like pause, then seek to a specific location, to queue something up inaudibly. This simply isn't possible while stopped. The reason Pause and Stop both exist is that they really are functionally different beyond simply the resume time.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: torne on September 02, 2011, 02:28:20 PM
(I cannot use pause as it does not store bookmark when the player turns off automatically after a delay.)
This behaviour is a bug, which should have been fixed some time ago (see FS#11493). Is it definitely still not saving the bookmark on idle poweroff for you, with a current build?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 04, 2011, 06:39:24 AM
This seems like an acceptable change, although I'm not sure if we allow double click button actions?

Although it's not what he suggested, it does seem a better alternative than the current two-button method. We used to have short then long "next" to skip folders. I don't see why short then long "home" couldn't be "resume playback."

Sounds good to me.
To achieve this, it would not even be necessary to detect the "short then long" sequence. As the first press of "home" already brings you to the main menu, all that would be required is that a long press of "home" takes you to the WPS from the main menu:

"home" -> main menu

short "home" from main menu -> back to where you've been (as already implemented)
long "home" from main menu -> WPS
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 04, 2011, 07:59:41 AM
Long press of "Home" already brings up the quickscreen. The whole point of suggestiong short+long was so as not to displace existing functionality.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 04, 2011, 08:57:37 AM
Sorry, I was not aware of that.

So "short then long home" sounds like the best solution.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 04, 2011, 11:04:00 PM
Sorry, I was not aware of that.

So "short then long home" sounds like the best solution.

rockbox doesnt support that type of keypress generically which means it isnt going to work.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 04, 2011, 11:13:33 PM
Perhaps it should be considered for addition then. There's several devices that depend on combos for things where a short-long would be much easier for a user to interact with.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 04, 2011, 11:15:47 PM
Not. A. Chance.
you really want *every* button press to be delayed while we wait and see if a double press is happening?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 04, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
Track skip certainly isn't delayed. In most cases you can perform the action that the short press performs, then if it's followed by a long, do that instead.

So that short+long home would wake you to the home menu (or back where you came from) then immediately to the WPS because of the interaction. This is more or less how it performed in the WPS last time I used it anyway - the short press would skip to the next track, but it didn't matter because it was immediately then moving on to the next folder.

While this allows the potential for some accidents, Rockbox already has plenty of that, and it will be entirely mitigated by intelligent keymap design while allowing for as much as a 50% increase in available keymaps within certain screens.

Thinks like Short+Long up/down to do paginated scrolling, rather than having to hold one button while pressing up or down would also be quite handy, for example.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 04, 2011, 11:26:57 PM
then fix the keymap so long home from the main menu gets you to the wps which is exactly the same outcome
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 04, 2011, 11:32:35 PM
Long home on its own already does something else. So it's not exactly the same outcome, at all.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 04, 2011, 11:34:06 PM
would you just bloody take my word for it that what you propose isnt possible without quite a bit of work? you know, seen as I bloody write the action handling system?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 04, 2011, 11:36:48 PM
I didn't deny that it might take quite a bit of work. All I suggested was that it might be worth considering despite that for the benefits. Perhaps.

It's not my fault you didn't read the thread to the point where someone already suggested just using long home, and we already covered that it's already in use. You don't need to get upset at me for it.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 04, 2011, 11:42:22 PM
sure, its been considered. And if someone really wanted to implement it I'd help them, but in the absense of volanteers I can confidently say it wont happen. You're of course welcome to prove me wrong.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: pabouk on September 05, 2011, 08:21:38 AM
Why do you need to bookmark while cycling? I mean, what's the situation where you'd want to stop playback, and then resume it, without looking at the player?
Maybe it is not the most common usage of Rockbox: I listen to podcasts. Sometimes I have to stop/pause playback and later resume where I stopped. I do this several times a day in many situations and I think to be able to stop/resume using a single hand without looking at the display is very important and convenient.

Quote from: Llorean
The H100 has an extra button to spare for this.
Not really. H100 has "extra button" A-B while Sansa Clip+ has "extra button" HOME.

Quote from: Llorean
It doesn't really make sense for a button labeled "Home" to take you to the WPS in the first place. There's nothing about the button that would indicate it does this, and the common Rockbox function for the menu button is the alternating behaviour. To some degree it's beneficial to have button functions stay the same between devices. If you have an iPod and then get a Clip+, you know that the "Home" button does what the "Menu" button on the iPod did, and there's little more to learn about the issue.
OK, fair enough. I did not know about the effort of Rockbox to map special buttons (like HOME) to actions of a similar meaning. As far as I know on H100 there was not the function the HOME button on Clip+ offers. Contrary the return to WPS/resume playback function on H100 was very useful for me.

Quote from: Llorean
There's a lot of complications with having a button that, when pressed from some screens resumes playback, and when pressed from others does not, since it makes it easier to accidentally resume when you may not want to. The short->long combo, much like the current one, will always resume (from screens that can be resumed from) and so isn't as prone to accidental behaviour.
OK, I agree.

Quote from: Llorean
Pause allows you to do things like pause, then seek to a specific location, to queue something up inaudibly. This simply isn't possible while stopped. The reason Pause and Stop both exist is that they really are functionally different beyond simply the resume time.
OK, I just do not need to set the player to exact location in the paused state. :)

(I cannot use pause as it does not store bookmark when the player turns off automatically after a delay.)
This behaviour is a bug, which should have been fixed some time ago (see FS#11493). Is it definitely still not saving the bookmark on idle poweroff for you, with a current build?
It works. Great! Even bookmark is created if the player powers off during pause. I just did not notice that the bug was repaired because I simply gave up using pause. Now I can start to use it again. Thank you. :D
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 05, 2011, 12:49:34 PM
Maybe it is not the most common usage of Rockbox: I listen to podcasts. Sometimes I have to stop/pause playback and later resume where I stopped. I do this several times a day in many situations and I think to be able to stop/resume using a single hand without looking at the display is very important and convenient.
That isn't exactly what I asked. I asked why you needed to bookmark while cycling. It's perfectly possible to pause and resume all you want with one hand. I do it all the time. Pausing still only requires one button. It's stopping that I asked about, and that's a somewhat different situation.
Quote
Quote from: Llorean
The H100 has an extra button to spare for this.
Not really. H100 has "extra button" A-B while Sansa Clip+ has "extra button" HOME.
The H100 also has a dedicate Play/Pause button that's separate from the navigation controls (via the stick) where the Clip+ does not. It's the "Play/Pause" button I was referring to. If you'll notice people are suggesting that the "Home" button contain some of the functionality of the "A-B" button and some of the functionality of the "Play/Pause" button, where it currently just contains the functionality of the "A-B" button.
Quote
OK, fair enough. I did not know about the effort of Rockbox to map special buttons (like HOME) to actions of a similar meaning. As far as I know on H100 there was not the function the HOME button on Clip+ offers. Contrary the return to WPS/resume playback function on H100 was very useful for me.
Like I said above, the "A-B" button on the H100 and the "Home" button on the Clip+ basically do the exact same thing, or should. They both functionally serve the purpose of a "menu" button. The main problem is that in the menus there isn't a spare button to do what the "Play/Pause" button on the H100 does.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: pabouk on September 05, 2011, 03:55:00 PM
I am sorry. I forgot about the useful dedicated Play/Pause button on H100 so I confused it with A-B...

Now when I know that the bug of power off during pause was resolved I will start to use pause but still there is no single-button control for resuming playback after the player has been turned off.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 05, 2011, 04:24:41 PM
I am sorry. I forgot about the useful dedicated Play/Pause button on H100 so I confused it with A-B...

Now when I know that the bug of power off during pause was resolved I will start to use pause but still there is no single-button control for resuming playback after the player has been turned off.

Why would you turn the player off and back on again while doing something that requires at at least one of your hands the whole time?

The Clip+ is capable of sitting for the major part of an entire day on pause. You can just disable the idle power off if you wish to be able to resume with a single button press.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 06, 2011, 01:43:26 AM
New proposal for WPS:

"left" is currently doing nothing in the top level of the menu. Why don't we use that to exit the menu, going back to where you've been? Many users associate "left" with "back".

"home" in the menu would then be free to be used to go to the WPS. Thus pressing "home" twice would bring you from the playlist to the WPS (via the menu), without the necessity of detecting double presses or long presses.

"home" -> main menu

"left" from main menu -> back to where you've been
"home" from main menu -> WPS
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 06, 2011, 01:50:16 AM
"left" is currently doing nothing in the top level of the menu. Why don't we use that to exit the menu, going back to where you've been? Many users associate "left" with "back".

Currently Rockbox stops in one place if you keep hitting left (the main menu) and blind users find this helpful since it's impossible to accidentally go too many levels "up" and cause something unexpected to happen. You'd lose this benefit to the blind users (which has been commented on as helpful in the past) if left were made to do something else in the main menu.

Most button assignments, including buttons that do nothing, were made for a reason. That's why I keep asking about how bad the situation is, and real world cases where this single button to WPS is so important, since it will *have* to displace an existing function or feature if it's just going to be a keymap change, and if that's the case, the case would benefit from having a case to be made for why it's more than simply an issue of convenience.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 06, 2011, 01:58:29 AM
Personally I think the WPS is more attractive than returning to where you've been, so how about:

"left" from main menu -> (nothing)
"long left" from main menu -> back to where you've been
"home" from main menu -> WPS
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 06, 2011, 02:01:22 AM
The problem with that is that is can become confusing.
HOME is just about all screens brings you back to the main menu. On just about all targets the button that does that gets you back to where you were when you press it again.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 06, 2011, 02:06:04 AM
Currently the "Home" button does the same thing in every screen except the 'home' screen. This makes a lot of sense. You'd be changing it so that the 'Home' button takes you to the main menu (or 'home screen') from the WPS, but the WPS from any other screen. Or would the "Home" button do nothing in the WPS since it now doesn't take you to the 'home' of the firmware?

As I said earlier, the current button mapping mirrors that of almost every other device with a menu or home button. While this device could warrant a special case, why don't we discuss why it should? What you've just suggested just now is basically what was originally suggested, and doesn't change anything about why it might be objected to. The problem isn't "how will we get to the menu and back" but "why should it disrupt the existing general keymap?"

You still didn't answer my question as to why the two buttons present such a problem. If it's a real problem during use, there's much more to consider than if it's just a "Personally, I prefer it this way" issue. Which is why I keep asking for use cases where it's important, to find out if there are ones where it really is quite difficult to work around the issue.

Consequently, "Long left" in the menus is handy because holding it repeats "left" over and over until you get to the 'top' menu. Otherwise it scrolls text left/right if you've enabled that function. So long left also already has a use. Left "not doing anything" and Long left doing left over and over are more or less a usability combination already.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: torne on September 06, 2011, 04:52:05 AM
Now when I know that the bug of power off during pause was resolved I will start to use pause but still there is no single-button control for resuming playback after the player has been turned off.
Set the start screen to "resume playback". Now you have a zero-button control for resuming playback after the player has been turned off. :)
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: pabouk on September 06, 2011, 10:59:40 AM
I know about the start screen setting but I do want the player to start the playback automatically every time after turning on. In addition often I listen to radio. Anyway thanks for your tips.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 09, 2011, 10:18:22 AM
About "returning to where you've been before activating the menu":

Currently the menu can be activated by pressing "home":
- from the WPS
- from the file list
- NOT from radio mode - is this a bug?
- NOT from recording mode - is this a bug?

Currently you can return from the menu by pressing "home":
- to the WPS (as long as you have not entered a sub menu)
- to the file list (as long as you have not entered a sub menu)

When you have entered a sub menu, pressing "home" repreatedly will just toggle between the recent two levels of the menu.

Is that really a function a user needs?

How about this:

Pressing "home" in the menu takes you back to
- the WPS
- radio mode
- recording mode
depending on what was active before entering the menu, or before entering the file list and then changing to the menu.

I think no one wants to return to the file list (which is just a sub menu of the main menu).

And: There is currenty no "exit" from the file list without interrupting the song being played, except by pressing "left" to go to the main menu, and then selecting "now playing". With my proposal above, pressing "home" twice would first enter the menu, then activate the WPS (as in the OF)



Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 13, 2011, 12:59:48 AM
I completely agree with mfe555 analysis and proposal. What I believe is frustrating about the Clip is that whenever you're accidentaly in the file menu (by clicking select) you can't click 'right' to return to the wps, because that would restart the song. I already suggested that, but it would be useful if the current file being played took you to the wps without restarting the song, when in the file menu. It would be intuitive and wouldn't break any functionality.

I don't get how returning to previous menu is useful (the menu key in most devices isn't subject to accidental keypresses), is there a reason or are we being conservative for the sake of familiarity? If originally it took you to the WPS/radio, would anyone want to change it so it returns to previous menu?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 13, 2011, 01:10:54 AM
the main menu is not the "previous menu" as you put it. that is the main entry point for the rockbox ui. The whole reaosn it is there is because some people thought the file browser was the main screen, and others through the WPS was.
from that screen you can get anywhere.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 13, 2011, 05:11:42 AM
the main menu is not the "previous menu" as you put it.

I believe you misunderstood me. Whenever you're in the main menu (root) and press home you're taken to the previous menu you were browsing (GO_TO_PREVIOUS).
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 18, 2011, 04:48:47 AM
Does anyone know: Is the (more or less useless) toggling between the two recent levels of the menu (when pressing "home" in the menu) a "speciality" of the Sansa Clip port or is this a feature of rockbox on all players?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 18, 2011, 05:03:48 AM
it is all targets.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 18, 2011, 08:24:32 AM
So I would like to make the following proposal. As this is not limited to Sansa and is no longer only about "a shortcut to WPS", I will post it in a thread of its own after the moderators’ feedback:

------------------

Better handling of "home" in the menu (making it easier to go to the WPS)

Currently pressing "home" in the menu executes "GO_TO_PREVIOUS" which takes you back to where you have just been. If you have been browsing the menu, it toggles between the two recent menu levels which is probably not the most useful function.

Some users would like to have a shortcut for going to the WPS. This has been discussed for Sansa Clip where it is quite annoying that, after activating the file list by pressing "select", the only way of returning to the WPS without interrupting the song being played is to go to the menu and select "Now playing". In the Sansa OF, pressing "home" twice takes you to the WPS. This could be achieved in rockbox as well by changing the function of "home" in the menu.

My proposal:
Pressing "home" in the menu changes to
depending on which of these was active before entering the menu, or before entering the file list and then changing to the menu.

From the file list, pressing "home" twice would now take you first to the menu, then to the WPS.

------------------

Before opening a new thread I would like to know if my description, especially of "GO_TO_PREVIOUS", is correct and whether “Feature Ideas” is the right place for it. Other feedback is appreciated as well.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 18, 2011, 08:29:20 AM
you're missing the fundamental point though that the menu button *by design* takes you back to where you were. This is what we want.

Yes the clip+ is badly short on keys but we wont be changing the ui for every target because of it.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 18, 2011, 09:56:53 AM
Quote
the only way of returning to the WPS without interrupting the song being played is to go to the menu and select "Now playing".

This is completely incorrect. There's also already a simple two-button combo on the Clip+ that returns you to the WPS and resumes playback if stopped.

Also, on nearly every other player there is a single-button way to return to the WPS. This is mainly a problem with a very small subset of players (in fact it may only be the Clip and Clip+) because they require the use of the Play/Pause button as a navigation button in lists. On players where the Play/Pause button is free in the lists, it functions as a single-button resume playback.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 18, 2011, 09:58:54 AM
the menu button *by design* takes you back to where you were. This is what we want.

Yes, this makes sense. It's what I want as well. The question is about taking you back to where you were when: back to where you were a second ago (there you can go again easily using the normal menu navigation) - or back to where you were before entering the menu.

Post Merge: September 18, 2011, 10:06:36 AM
Also, on nearly every other player there is a single-button way to return to the WPS. This is mainly a problem with a very small subset of players (in fact it may only be the Clip and Clip+) because they require the use of the Play/Pause button as a navigation button in lists. On players where the Play/Pause button is free in the lists, it functions as a single-button resume playback.

I see. I will no longer propose to change this in general, but for the Clip series it would be really nice.

I know that mimicking the OF behaviour is not the concept of rockbox, but in this case I think many users would appreciate to have the similar behaviour.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 18, 2011, 10:10:19 AM
You really haven't covered why using two buttons is such a significant problem that it should displace existing cross-target behavior so that it can be moved from a two-button action to a single-button action.

This isn't a case of something that can't be done at all without the change, but rather the case of something that becomes slightly easier with the change.

In fact, I'm still not wholly certain you're aware that it can be done without the change, since you mentioned it being impossible two of your posts back, and didn't acknowledge the correction.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 18, 2011, 10:57:59 AM
I acknowledge the two button method exists, sorry for not having mentioned it. It was mentioned before in this thread:

You try to press two keys simultaneously with one hand to get to WPS but you fail.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 18, 2011, 11:03:51 AM
Yeah, it was mentioned several times, which is why it seemed somewhat confusing that your write-up said "the only way" was to use the menu entry for "Resume Playback." Your entire proposal seems to be based around the idea that it's the only way, not mentioning what to do with the combo now that it won't be necessary, not talking about why the combo is impractical to use or anything like that. The write-up doesn't take into account the combo as an existing option, or as something that would need to be changed after your proposed changes are made.

So why not attempt to address it again from the angle of "There are currently two ways to get back to the wps, we need a third" or  "there are currently two ways to get back to the wps, we should replace one of them" since the position of "this can't be done without using the menu" that you wrote about in your proposal just simply doesn't exist, and more or less invalidates the reasoning given there of "we need this button because there's no other way than the menu entry."
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 18, 2011, 11:15:45 AM
Thanks for your feedback, incorporated below. Not sure whether the two button method should be removed if my proposal was followed:

------------------

Sansa Clip family: Better handling of "home" in the menu (making it easier to go to the WPS)

Currently pressing "home" in the menu executes "GO_TO_PREVIOUS" which takes you back to where you have just been. If you have been browsing the menu, it toggles between the two recent menu levels which is probably not the most useful function.

Some Sansa Clip users would like to have a shortcut for going to the WPS. It is quite annoying that, after activating the file list by pressing "select", both ways of returning to the WPS without interrupting the song being played are relatively inconvenient: either going to the menu and selecting "Now playing", or using the two-button method which some users find difficult to do with one hand. In the Sansa OF, pressing "home" twice takes you to the WPS. This could be achieved in rockbox as well by changing the function of "home" in the menu.

My proposal:
Pressing "home" in the menu changes to
depending on which of these was active before entering the menu, or before entering the file list and then changing to the menu.

From the file list, pressing "home" twice would now take you first to the menu, then to the WPS.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 18, 2011, 11:25:25 AM
You haven't really incorporated any of my feedback. You've chosen not to address what should be done about any of the existing functionality this interferes with or duplicates, nor have you addressed why it's a bad enough problem it should displace existing functionality.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: torne on September 18, 2011, 11:53:41 AM
I use my Clip reasonably often and I have never needed to return to the WPS in enough of a hurry to even bother to find out what the return-to-wps button combination is.

When I'm in a situation where I need to use the player without looking, or couldn't use both hands if needed, I never leave the WPS to begin with; if I were to accidentally press the home button I *could* just press it again to return to the WPS, since I wouldn't've done anything else inbetween. If I'm actually navigating the menus then almost always this is to change what's playing, which will return to the WPS anyway, and if not then I just go hit the relevant main menu option when I'm done.

I really don't see why this needs changing. I have several other devices too, which *do* have enough buttons for a dedicated return-to-wps button, and I rarely press it on those either :)
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mattofdoom on September 18, 2011, 01:17:01 PM
Hello all, I've just read through this thread and felt the need to weigh in.

When I first installed Rockbox on my clip (ages ago now) I loved it, but was extremely frustrated by some of the button behaviour, just as mfe555 is. I posted my thoughts here on the forum back then, admittedly far less eloquently than mfe555 has managed, but couldn't find any sympathy so I decided to have a go at patching it myself. It turned out I wasn't as savvy as I remembered, and could never get the thing to work.

Despite this, I've used rockbox ever since and largely love it.

Anyway, for me the issue lies with getting back to the WPS 'blind', which is something I still can't manage despite using rockbox since it first came out on this player. I have however managed to get quite good at cycling with no hands, because I need to use one hand to navigate the player, and the other to shield the screen from the sun, to get back to the WPS.

The argument has been aired that if I want to use the player blind in my pocket, I should just insure I put it away on the WPS. Unfortunately, sometimes I forget. Sometimes buttons get pressed in my pockets. Sometimes, when I reach into my pocket to do something I press the wrong buttons, and now I don't know how to get back to WPS without looking.

Besides me, my clip is also used by about of my 20 friends, and quite a few of their friends -- whoever has the least appealing night-shift approaching. None of my friends are the sort of technical persons who might give rockbox a go naturally, and they universally find my player nearly impossible to use. Something I correlate to the keymap issues mfe555 is highlighting. I'm regularly teased for having a "nearly unusable" knock-off, presumed picked up at some far-eastern flea-market. In the end, I've taught them all to hold down left when switching on to get to the OF, and things have been fine since.

I like mfe555's suggestion because it doesn't break the home button's behaviour of 'taking you back', but aligns it with the psychological expectation of taking you back to the mode you were last in, rather than back to a different bit of that menu.

I'd also love to know why home won't get you out of radio or record mode, but will get you out of the WPS.

Sorry for rambling on.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: sandwich600 on September 19, 2011, 05:42:50 AM
I would also like a "blind", "in pocket" way of getting back to the WPS screen on the Clip+.  I always pause the music when crossing roads.  Doing this it sometimes goes to the pitch alteration screen.  To restart the music, I have to remove from pocket, remove sunglasses, shield the screen while using 2 thumbs to do a simultaneous double keypress.  Then it sometimes happens again at the next road. This is the main drawback with Rockbox for me, but it is still far superior to the alternatives.

I appreciate this key stuff must be hard becuase RB works on so many platforms.  But it would be nice if there was a foolproof way to pause/continue music in pocket.  The pitch alteration is wonderful but probably a thing most people use less regularly than "pause".

My favourite feature is the MP3 crossfade - it's great in the car, on headphones, and on the home hi-fi.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 19, 2011, 10:37:41 AM
If you're in the pitch alteration screen, you're probably going to need to look at the device anyway. The suggestion here isn't going to solve your problem.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 20, 2011, 07:29:43 AM
Ok Llorean, my next try (added the last 2 parts):

------------------

Sansa Clip family: Better handling of "home" in the menu (making it easier to go to the WPS)

Currently pressing "home" in the menu executes "GO_TO_PREVIOUS" which takes you back to where you have just been. If you have been browsing the menu, it toggles between the two recent menu levels which is probably not the most useful function.

Some Sansa Clip users would like to have a shortcut for going to the WPS. It is quite annoying that, after activating the file list by pressing "select", both ways of returning to the WPS without interrupting the song being played are relatively inconvenient: either going to the menu and selecting "Now playing", or using the two-button method which some users find difficult to do with one hand. In the Sansa OF, pressing "home" twice takes you to the WPS. This could be achieved in rockbox as well by changing the function of "home" in the menu.

My proposal:
Pressing "home" in the menu changes to
depending on which of these was active before entering the menu, or before entering the file list and then changing to the menu.

From the file list, pressing "home" twice would now take you first to the menu, then to the WPS.

Why is this important? - Navigating the menu to go to the WPS requires several key presses and full attention on a very small screen. The two button method, on a player designed to be operated with one hand, is perfect for persons having two thumbs on that hand. Both methods are non-intuitive; especially first time rockbox users, unless they are "manual readers", have a hard time returning to the WPS. Mattofdoom has described the frustration of many of his friends about this. I think we want an intuitive, easy to use rockbox.

What existing functions would be replaced? - The function of the "home" button in the menu would be changed. Instead of 'taking you back' where you've been a second ago (there you can go again easily using the normal menu navigation) it would take you to where you were (WPS, radio mode, record mode) before entering the menu or the file list. The two-button method could stay in place for those who got used to it.

Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: Llorean on September 20, 2011, 11:03:27 AM
Why is this important? - Navigating the menu to go to the WPS requires several key presses and full attention on a very small screen. The two button method, on a player designed to be operated with one hand, is perfect for persons having two thumbs on that hand. Both methods are non-intuitive; especially first time rockbox users, unless they are "manual readers", have a hard time returning to the WPS. Mattofdoom has described the frustration of many of his friends about this. I think we want an intuitive, easy to use rockbox.

Using "Home" to return to the WPS also isn't intuitive. Someone will just have to randomly press that button and discover what it does. Meanwhile the "Resume Playback" option is visible and labeled. I can't see how that's less intuitive than a button doing something that its label doesn't indicate.

We've long since come to the conclusion that Rockbox can't be intuitive. There's just too much to it. Instead, we lean toward consistency. Once you learn how things work, they stay working that way between screens. Sometimes even between devices. This way you don't need to read a new manual every time a player breaks or becomes outdated and you need to buy a new one. There is no real escaping the necessity to read the manual once, but one can mitigate how often you have to re-read it.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 20, 2011, 12:23:46 PM
Llorean, you're not convincing me. I was about to suggest a poll before reading mattofdoom's posting, after that I was hoping you would accept his report about 20+ users finding rockbox on the Clip "nearly impossible to use" as a kind of result of some poll, though not under transparent conditions.

Without ever having read the original Clip's manual, finding out that pressing "home" again brought you from the menu to the WPS was so easy (experimentally, but not unexpected) that I don't remember it as a problem at all. I do remember how long it took me to find the way to the WPS using rockbox.

The toggling between the two recent levels of the menu is a close to useless function that could easily be replaced by something useful.

Is there a way to start a poll in this forum?

Maintaining consistency would be possible by making this configurable on all players, with a recommendation that Clip users familiar with the OF should consider "my" settings. A sentence like this in a manual, explained by the low number of buttons on the Clip family, won't hurt.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: saratoga on September 20, 2011, 01:23:42 PM
Llorean, you're not convincing me. I was about to suggest a poll before reading mattofdoom's posting, after that I was hoping you would accept his report about 20+ users finding rockbox on the Clip "nearly impossible to use" as a kind of result of some poll, though not under transparent conditions.

You don't need to make a poll.  No one will care what the result is since we do not put UI changes to a vote. 
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 20, 2011, 05:09:34 PM
We've long since come to the conclusion that Rockbox can't be intuitive. There's just too much to it. Instead, we lean toward consistency. Once you learn how things work, they stay working that way between screens.

That doesn't exactly hold true for the Clip+.

Quoting its manual "Power: Leave the radio screen with the radio playing". This isn't intuitive nor consistent between screens and players. Power button always stops the song or plugins, or at least it should. So, why was it made that way, different from all other players? Because the Clip+ has too few buttons, so an exception was made. This is unpredictable and confusing, even for someone used with Rockbox. Even worse for the Recording screen.

I believe this would make a really pertinent exception, too.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: saratoga on September 20, 2011, 05:14:21 PM
Quoting its manual "Power: Leave the radio screen with the radio playing". This isn't intuitive nor consistent between screens and players. Power button always stops the song or plugins, or at least it should. So, why was it made that way, different from all other players? Because the Clip+ has too few buttons, so an exception was made. This is unpredictable and confusing, even for someone used with Rockbox. Even worse for the Recording screen.

Well yes, obviously when theres not enough buttons to be consistent, its not possible to be consistent. 
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 20, 2011, 06:01:21 PM
mfe555: incase you hadnt guessed already, you're fighting an unwinnable battle. UI changes basically never happen because the people that want the change get shouted down by the people who like to do nothing more than reject any possible changes. (CHANGE IS BAAAAD! MKAY!)

While i am tending to agree with you (and I have this vague recollection of the button origionally working like that), a poll wont really help at all. Change happens when someone comes up with a patch, and then someone with the required balls gets it through the field of naysayers (which is usually one very loud and annoying person).

So come up with the patch and then we'll talk.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 20, 2011, 08:32:49 PM
This should settle it and please everyone (or at least I hope so) :)

http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12288
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 21, 2011, 06:27:34 AM
I'm so happy to see that I've been fighting only a single windmill.

Thanks a lot for your encouraging support, saratoga and JdGordon.

Very special thanks to you, flaps, for starting the magic. So "GO_TO_PREVIOUS_MUSIC" was a function that already existed, ready to be used in this context? I hadn't dared to imagine that the solution would so easy (which certainly doesn't mean I undervalue your great work).

If the motto "special (low key count) devices benefit from special solutions" is accepted, I hope your patch will make it into the next release.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 21, 2011, 06:35:27 AM
I don't mind the patch flaps posted, though I would like to see it more generalised to a hotkey type thing so users can choose what they want that button to do. We already have a hotkey setting for the filebrowsers and the WPS so the precedent is there to add it to the main menu too. Of course with the default set to "last screen"/GO_TO_PREVIOUS users who are currently happy wont lose anything.

flaps, if that sounds like something you want to do and need help buzz me on IRC
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: sandwich600 on September 21, 2011, 10:34:26 AM
If you're in the pitch alteration screen, you're probably going to need to look at the device anyway. The suggestion here isn't going to solve your problem.
 
I sometimes end up on the pitch alteration screen when trying to pause or resume the music in my pocket.  This happens when you keep the pause button pressed slightly too long.  The first you know about it is the next attempted resume/pause, nothing happens. A quick way of returning to the WPS would solve my problem in this case.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 21, 2011, 04:06:16 PM
mfe555, did you manage to compile rockbox sucessfully? I can send you the .zip file if you want to.

JdGordon, is that really needed? :( I don't really see the use of going to the main menu then imediatelly back to the previous screen
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on September 21, 2011, 07:26:08 PM
I jus got my clip out and had a play. and having home go back to previous is indeed nice.
Your patch will only change the gorup of people complaining. Making it configurable wont be hard to add and will make evryon happy
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 21, 2011, 08:43:53 PM
Ok, I'll see what I can do, but I'm slightly busy at the moment, maybe next week or so. If someone else wants to do it, it's fine by me :)
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on September 22, 2011, 03:38:34 AM
mfe555, did you manage to compile rockbox sucessfully? I can send you the .zip file if you want to.

Yes it would be really nice if you could send me a compiled version. I'll then do some beta testing and report if there's anything unexpected.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 24, 2011, 02:04:55 PM
mfe555: Ok, here it is
http://www.mediafire.com/?cv2sfoss1b51o9h (http://www.mediafire.com/?cv2sfoss1b51o9h)
(I believe the only thing that can be considered unexpected is that when the player is stopped and you press home in the root, playback is resumed, but that's because the WPS doesn't work in stop)
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: pabouk on September 25, 2011, 06:22:47 AM
I believe the only thing that can be considered unexpected is that when the player is stopped and you press home in the root, playback is resumed, but that's because the WPS doesn't work in stop
I think both functions (return to WPS, resume playback) have the same importance and it is logical that they are accessible using the same button combination. I am convinced that both functions should be accessible using a "blind" (usually single-button) combination on all players if possible. Sansa Clip+ has 9 buttons so it should be possible there.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on September 25, 2011, 11:40:14 AM
I think both functions (return to WPS, resume playback) have the same importance and it is logical that they are accessible using the same button combination.

I mean the patch should work fine, and the only thing someone testing could maybe consider unexpected is that it works as "Resume playback", not just "Go to WPS", but that's actually expected.

I am convinced that both functions should be accessible using a "blind" (usually single-button) combination on all players if possible. Sansa Clip+ has 9 buttons so it should be possible there.

I don't understand, isn't Home key twice good enough? That's what this whole topic is about
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: pabouk on September 26, 2011, 10:44:18 AM
I don't understand, isn't Home key twice good enough? That's what this whole topic is about
Yes, double press or short-long press is absolutely perfect as a "blind" (i.e. usable without looking at display) button combination.

Contrary menu is usually unusable without looking at display if you do not have other aids (like voiced menu).
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on October 01, 2011, 03:46:26 PM
I jus got my clip out and had a play. and having home go back to previous is indeed nice.
Your patch will only change the gorup of people complaining. Making it configurable wont be hard to add and will make evryon happy

Oh, I just reread this correctly and I'm confused. Who is this group of people that would complain?

I don't think any clip user would complain, it's not something complainable, it isn't a feature to go to the root then go back to the menu you were, that's not useful in any sense, as you can't do anything in the root.

I'm actually against a hotkey, it should be default for players with no single-button WPS shortcut -- who would opt-out something like this anyway?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: JdGordon on October 01, 2011, 07:12:59 PM
not everyone has the same usage habbits as you, don't assume anything just because you like it one way.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on October 02, 2011, 08:28:23 AM
I think the three of us have started to like "GO_TO_PREVIOUS_MUSIC", I have not yet heard of anyone who would miss "GO_TO_PREVIOUS", and I even think it would be an improvement for all devices.

Nevertheless I have learned the lession that changing existing functionality is "not wanted" here, and I accept that a user who got used to one behaviour of a key would be irritated by such a change, even if some of us think that it's a change for good.

So making it programmable on all devices (another lession learned: no exceptions) sounds like the best proposal to me.

Maybe we could add a section to the "Clip" family manuals describing "recommended settings for friends of the OF behaviour", including also:

Settings - General Settings - System - Start Screen - Resume Playback
Settings - General Settings - File View - Follow Playlist - Yes

Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on October 02, 2011, 07:49:36 PM
Edit:

Ok, I think I got this figured out.

I understand that people don't want existing functionality to change, and that this is why so many developers were against the original proposal.

Here's the thing: My proposal isn't the same as mfe555 one. It doesn't replace the Menu functionality at all. That's where all the confusion came from, I guess.

Menu (home) takes you to the main menu, as expected.
Currently, when you double-click Home nothing happens, it leaves you where you were. The patch just makes use of this unused key combo, and takes you to the current music screen.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on October 08, 2011, 06:46:46 AM
Flaps, that's an intersting way of seeing it. To fully understand it, we need to know that your patch only changes the function of the "home" key (GO_TO_PREVIOUS_MUSIC instead of  GO_TO_PREVIOUS) when you're in the root level of the menu.

So the "useless non-events" like

file list  --(home)-->   root menu  --(home)-->   file list
sub menu   --(home)-->   root menu  --(home)-->   sub menu
WPS        --(home)-->   root menu  --(home)-->   WPS


are replaced by

file list  --(home)-->   root menu  --(home)-->   WPS
sub menu   --(home)-->   root menu  --(home)-->   WPS
WPS        --(home)-->   root menu  --(home)-->   WPS


assuming that the WPS was the last music screen.

I like that.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on October 09, 2011, 02:50:35 PM
Hm, not really useless, just redundant, they're just there because most players already have buttons for everything. That's why the patch is clip specific. :)
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: AlexP on October 10, 2011, 09:11:53 AM
What would be much more useful IMO was if someone could come up with a sensible system for having all buttons configurable, then we could stop having these arguments and people could just do what they wanted.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on October 10, 2011, 10:18:06 AM
Yes, definitely, this would be the best overall solution.

It would probably not be possible any longer by changing key functions in menus but require a keymap file to be edited on a PC. This would have the charme of

    * being universal for all players,
    * not changing the default behaviour
    * allowing versatile changes that would be far too complex to select in menus
    * allowing to share keymap files with other users.

However, looking at the time it would take to implement this, I would like to see this as a separate action.

About the GO_TO_PREVIOUS_MUSIC patch: We have the options

(1) Clip specific (as implemented by flaps) - a special solution for a special (low key count) device
(2) Fixed for all players - redefining the pretty useless "non event" when pressing "home" twice
(3) Configurable

- what should we go for, and who is making the decision?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: AlexP on October 10, 2011, 11:08:38 AM
- what should we go for, and who is making the decision?

It is the developers you need to convince.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on October 10, 2011, 12:24:46 PM
mfe555, seems like you just ignored my last post
It shouldn't be "fixed" for other players, they don't need it
Anyway, let's not drag this discussion further

(developers, please read my last two posts)
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: AlexP on October 10, 2011, 12:32:07 PM
Very very few developers read the forum.  Once you have decided what the proposal is, then I'd email the -dev mailing list.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: flaps on October 10, 2011, 12:34:29 PM
I've submitted a patch already, but it was misinterpreted as something else.
http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12288 (and by main menu I mean root)
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: mfe555 on October 11, 2011, 06:19:58 AM
Having realized of how little use the original function was, I suggest we don't make it configurabe but go for the patch you have submitted.

Flaps, can you write a friendly mail to the developers mailing list?
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: thomasBa on December 19, 2011, 07:07:04 PM
The argument has been aired that if I want to use the player blind in my pocket, I should just insure I put it away on the WPS. Unfortunately, sometimes I forget. Sometimes buttons get pressed in my pockets. Sometimes, when I reach into my pocket to do something I press the wrong buttons, and now I don't know how to get back to WPS without looking.

I just read through the whole discussion and must say, I completely agree with mattofdoom's post. That the home button gets you to the last screen is not very helpful and most of my friends are incapable of using the rockbox firmware, so that I boot the OF.
I really would like to try out the posted patch. But I think I'm not able to compile the code myself. Would there be anybody so nice and compile the patch together with the latest rockbox version? The posted one is an older firmware.

And another point was mentioned in the beginning of the discussion: The home button does nothing in radio or recording mode. This feels a little bit strange. Is this intended to be in this way?

Best Regards!
Thomas

Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: funman on December 19, 2011, 08:09:48 PM
I would say that generally the keymap on Sansa Clip just sucks in multiple regards.

The two worst screens for me are recording and FM

Any improvement in the form of a patch is more than welcome
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: sandwich600 on December 20, 2011, 10:50:03 AM
I really would like to try out the posted patch. But I think I'm not able to compile the code myself. Would there be anybody so nice and compile the patch together with the latest rockbox version? The posted one is an older firmware.

I would love to get my hands on that too, to escape this keymap pain.  RB is great but somewhat  hampered by strict internal politics, which militates against cross-platform usability IMO.  It is similar in some ways to the Linux kernel project, which is also cross platform. But Linux is more open to change and flourishes accordingly. 

Maybe the RB GUI should be a separate project.  RB devs would then be free of worry about trivial button matters on a bunch of $20 players.
Title: Re: [Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS
Post by: trainer on April 08, 2012, 05:00:22 PM
This is in 3.11!  Thanks to Felipe (flaps)!