Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => User Interface and Voice => Topic started by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 07:58:53 PM

Title: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 07:58:53 PM
Steps:

1 Launch Sansa e200V2 simulator (here, from http://rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator/)
2 Press ALT+F4

Expected: exit
Observed: no effect

OS: Win XP SP2
RB: Version r24777-100-219
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 08:07:52 PM
1) You clearly know the forums aren't the right place for bug reports (or should, since you read the guidelines and reported an error in them).

2) Is there any documentation that says Alt+F4 is supposed to do that in the simulator? There are many, many windows programs that don't treat Alt+F4 as an exit combination. Unless there's something that says it's meant to do this, it shouldn't be "expected" behavior.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: saratoga on April 27, 2010, 08:14:28 PM
I don't think this is a bug, and honestly unless you've got a way to change the behavior its not worth anyone's time.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 08:24:24 PM
> the forums aren't the right place for bug reports

Oops, sorry - reposted at http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11225.

> 2) Is there any documentation that says Alt+F4 is supposed to do that in the simulator?

The title bar menu.

> Unless there's something that says it's meant to do this, it shouldn't be "expected" behavior.

Agreed 100%.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 08:37:39 PM
The bug is actually that the title bar menu says that, I believe, then.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 08:43:25 PM
The bug is actually that the title bar menu says that, I believe, then.

I'll go with your:

Quote
Unless there's something that says it's meant to do this, it shouldn't be "expected" behavior.

:) :)
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 08:45:22 PM
Yes, in the code or manual.

Basically, a bug is when something does something it's not supposed to do. In this case, it's not supposed to tell you about a button combination that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 09:01:37 PM
> In this case, it's not supposed to tell you about a button combination that doesn't exist.

OOI, how can you tell ?
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 09:23:35 PM
I have no idea what "OOI" means. As the guidelines also said, please try not to use abbreviations except in places where they're technical terms relating to the project.

I'll admit there's no good way to tell that Alt+F4 isn't supposed to do anything for the casual user - that's what makes it a problem.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 09:33:59 PM
> I have no idea what "OOI" means.

"Out of Interest"

> As the guidelines also said, please try not to use abbreviations except in places where
> they're technical terms relating to the project.

Oops, sorry.

> I'll admit there's no good way to tell that Alt+F4 isn't supposed to do anything for the casual user

What was the way that was good enough for you?
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 10:03:28 PM
Well the way that was good enough for me is that a developer posted in the thread that he doesn't think this is a bug.

And that it's a cross platform app generally intended to perform the same on other OSes that don't follow the "Alt+F4 = close window" paradigm.

And that, generally, it's not intended to respond to any keypresses beyond those that represent inputs on the player, because it's a simulator.

Another option would be to check the source code to find out what it's intended to do, though I didn't personally go that far.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 10:14:39 PM
> Well the way that was good enough for me is that a developer posted in the thread that he doesn't think this is a bug.

Well, we've agreed it must be a bug, in action or UI.

> And that it's a cross platform app generally intended to perform the same on other OSes
> that don't follow the "Alt+F4 = close window" paradigm.

I guess another OS would have its key for close.

> And that, generally, it's not intended to respond to any keypresses beyond those that represent
> inputs on the player, because it's a simulator.

Windows apps generally respond to standard Windows app keys because they are Windows apps ! :)

> Another option would be to check the source code to find out what it's intended to do

 :)
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 10:17:38 PM
I don't see what's funny. It's an honest answer - this is open source.

And many, many windows apps don't close on Alt+F4 (see for example, >90% of videogames ever made as a starting point). It's something that many applications do *when it makes sense* but plenty others ignore it because it's not part of the functionality.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 10:23:41 PM
> It's something that many applications do *when it makes sense*

Which is why it seems to me it would be good for this one to do it.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 10:26:06 PM
But "I think it should do it" doesn't make the lack of it a bug.

Feel free to submit a patch for it though.

But the simulator is meant to simulate the normal operation of a Rockbox device - you should power it off by pressing whatever button or combo would power off the device. It is *not* a full application meant to work like a normal native windows application.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 10:44:12 PM
> you should power it off by pressing whatever button or combo would power off the device.

That would be Long Power. It doesn't work.

> It is *not* a full application meant to work like a normal native windows application.

Well, I can't see the advantage of this one keypress not working and hence requiring the mouse, esp. since all other program functions are operated by keypresses and none by mouse.

Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 10:46:29 PM
So the real problem is that you can't quit it using the keypresses that would power down the player?
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 27, 2010, 10:54:14 PM
So the real problem is that you can't quit it using the keypresses that would power down the player?

No. I'd say there's a separate problem in the failure of Long Power to power down the simulated device. I would not expect it to close the window, esp. since that would prevent Powering the device back again e.g. to test fixed .CFG.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 27, 2010, 10:55:29 PM
You can just re-launch the app to "power it back on again."
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 28, 2010, 05:09:18 AM
OK, but shouldn't Long Power work?
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 28, 2010, 01:20:27 PM
So the real problem is that you can't quit it using the keypresses that would power down the player?
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on April 28, 2010, 01:28:57 PM
Sorry, I've lost you.

The device docs says Long Power powers down the player.

In the sim, it doesn't. All other device buttons work - just not this one.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on April 28, 2010, 01:35:33 PM
Yes. As I said, it sounds like the fact that this doesn't work is a problem. And then, later, you asked me if it should work.

Obviously if it's a problem that it doesn't work, that means it should work. I quoted my mentioning of the fact that its not working was a problem in the hopes that you'd realized I'd already acknowledged the point.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: karashata on April 28, 2010, 02:05:19 PM
So the real problem is that you can't quit it using the keypresses that would power down the player?

No. I'd say there's a separate problem in the failure of Long Power to power down the simulated device. I would not expect it to close the window, esp. since that would prevent Powering the device back again e.g. to test fixed .CFG.

Okay, since the simulator is a simulator it is kind of limited in exactly what it can and can't do by nature. It can't give you any idea how the hardware should perform since it's not running on that hardware, and is not an emulator of that hardware. It is a simulator of the rockbox interface for that particular device and is intended to showcase how the interface works.

In reality its best use (as far as I'm concerned anyway) is for making themes for the device in question, and any other use really would be any bug testing that's not dependent directly on the hardware. As such, having the interface act exactly like the hardware isn't entirely necessary as long as the simulator has controls appropriate to the available buttons on the hardware in order to control the interface (ie. navigation, volume control, etc.).
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 04, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
Reported as a bug:

FS#11238 - Sansa e200 v2 simulator - long power press fails to power-off device
http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11238

Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2010, 04:30:18 PM
Just as a note for that bug report, the "reported version" shouldn't be 3.4 (as 3.4 only refers to the actual 3.4 release, not any later builds) and your version number is also written wrong (they don't include two dashes).

It's also a relatively out of date version, and we ask that bug reports be against the most recent version of the code available. The simulator is a development tool, and you should generally be building your own rather than depending on a random person's outdated hosted versions.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 04, 2010, 04:54:26 PM
Thanks for the feedback.

Just as a note for that bug report, the "reported version" shouldn't be 3.4 (as 3.4 only refers to the actual 3.4 release, not any later builds)

OK - noted.

and your version number is also written wrong (they don't include two dashes).

Where on the simulator distribution should I look for the correct version number? I find none in the regular. exe properties.

It's also a relatively out of date version, and we ask that bug reports be against the most recent version of the code available.

That was the latest version available to me, since I don't have build facilities.

The simulator is a development tool

I was using it for "Test other devices for working on the Manual." as per http://rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator/

and you should generally be building your own rather than depending on a random person's outdated hosted versions.

Are the "unofficial (but trusted) pre-compiled Windows versions of the simulators" (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator#Download) found here: http://rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator/ acceptable?



Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2010, 05:06:49 PM
Where on the simulator distribution should I look for the correct version number? I find none in the regular. exe properties.

The same place you find version numbers in Rockbox. As a clue, check the manual before asking questions.

Are the "unofficial (but trusted) pre-compiled Windows versions of the simulators" (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator#Download) found here: http://rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator/ acceptable?

If they were, I wouldn't have been saying "you should build your own" but rather "you should build your own, or use the ones from rasher.dk"

They're often out of date. When they're out of date, they can be missing whole features, or have controls completely different than current Rockbox. While I expect your problem still exists in them, an assumption that it does should never be made - if you're filing a bug report it should be against the most recent version possible.

The tools necessary to compile Rockbox and its simulators are free and available for all the major OSes, and the instructions are relatively simple.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 04, 2010, 05:31:50 PM
The same place you find version numbers in Rockbox.

I was expecting a version number specific to the simulator, but if it is the same as Rockbox for device, fine.

As a clue, check the manual before asking questions.

I checked the only manual I've found for the simulator, and it didn't answer. Perhaps because, as you say, it is only in the wiki (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator), hence unofficial.

if you're filing a bug report it should be against the most recent version possible.

I think you're mistaken. There is no such project requirement - see http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FlySprayHowto .

And I am glad there is not - such a requirement would unduly hamper reporting.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: gevaerts on May 04, 2010, 05:35:54 PM
if you're filing a bug report it should be against the most recent version possible.

I think you're mistaken. There is no such project requirement - see http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FlySprayHowto .

You have pointed out yourself that the wiki can be incomplete and outdated.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: AlexP on May 04, 2010, 05:42:43 PM
As a clue, check the manual before asking questions.

I checked the only manual I've found for the simulator, and it didn't answer. Perhaps because, as you say, it is only in the wiki (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator), hence unofficial.

The sim for the most part works the same as Rockbox on a device, and so the manual for the most part applies to both.

if you're filing a bug report it should be against the most recent version possible.

I think you're mistaken. There is no such project requirement - see http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FlySprayHowto .

And I am glad there is not - such a requirement would unduly hamper reporting.

There should be such a requirement there, it is commonly asked for - it wastes a huge amount of time investigating bug reports for bugs that have already been fixed.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2010, 05:43:09 PM
I was expecting a version number specific to the simulator, but if it is the same as Rockbox for device, fine.

It is. The simulators are build from the exact same source. A simulator for a target will only behave the same as the target if they have the exact same revision number, which tells they were built from the same revision of the code.

As a clue, check the manual before asking questions.

I checked the only manual I've found for the simulator, and it didn't answer. Perhaps because, as you say, it is only in the wiki (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator), hence unofficial.

There is no separate manual for the simulator. Outside of the controls, everything within the simulator for a specific target should work as Rockbox does on that player, thus the player manual is what should be referenced for the simulator in almost all cases.

if you're filing a bug report it should be against the most recent version possible.

I think you're mistaken. There is no such project requirement - see http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FlySprayHowto .

And I am glad there is not - such a requirement would unduly hamper reporting.


I note you're once more referencing the wiki. And suggesting I said it was required - "should be" is different from "must be" hence the difference in meaning of the words. Whether or not it's a requirement though, it makes sense that a several month old version that is 1000 revisions behind current SVN is out of date and missing many things.

It's not a requirement, but it's heavily suggested that reports be made against the most current revision possible (you'll notice that word choice was important too). This means, for example, that we expect you at least to make an attempt to not have reported against heavily outdated code. Reporting against completely random versions just fills the tracker with reports on things already fixed (because searching the tracker isn't enough - there isn't always a bug report for something) or on features that simply don't work the same way any more.

If you don't feel up to compiling the latest code, you can report bugs against a release version. But since the simulator is for development (either development of the manual, development of Rockbox, or development of WPSes) it's not unreasonable to expect people working with it to be using the most recent build (as there is no other truly relevant build of the sim than the most recent one for any of these purposes).
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 04, 2010, 05:52:03 PM
Quote
It's not a requirement

Thanks for the clarification.

Quote
but it's heavily suggested that reports be made against the most current revision possible

If that's true, don't you think it very odd there is not remotely any such mention in the FlySprayHowto ??

Quote
Reporting against completely random versions just fills the tracker with reports on things already fixed ).

Agreed. That's why I didn't.

Quote
If you don't feel up to compiling the latest code, you can report bugs against a release version.

Great. Now where does one find that version's simulator built for Windows? Thanks.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2010, 05:57:23 PM
If that's true, don't you think it very ofdd there is not remotely any such mention in the FlySprayHowto ??

It's a wiki page. Possibly some irate user who disagrees with it removed it? Possibly nobody thought to add it because "bug reports shouldn't be against outdated versions" seems the most blatantly obvious thing that nobody thought it needed to be explicit. Especially considering the version dropdown in Flyspray only allows you specific choices, and it's a clue when your version isn't one of those choices that it's the wrong one (something you ignored and just lied about there).


Great. Now where does one find that version's simulator built for Windows? Thanks.

One compiles it, as I said.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: AlexP on May 04, 2010, 05:59:19 PM
Quote
but it's heavily suggested that reports be made against the most current revision possible

If that's true, don't you think it very ofdd there is not remotely any such mention in the FlySprayHowto ??

It is mentioned now.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: [Saint] on May 04, 2010, 10:47:01 PM
IIUC there is only a *very* small change between 3.5 and 3.5.1 to cover an issue that (AFAIK) not everyone was experiencing anyway.

3.5 Simulator builds are available here (http://rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator-3.5/)

But, if one wants a build that is *absolutely* current SVN, then Llorean is indeed quite correct, you will need to compile it yourself.


[St.]
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on May 05, 2010, 03:27:33 PM
Simulator builds based off the latest release version are still simply outdated simulator builds.

There is no released sim.

Basically, bug reports should be against one of two things - a binary we release or currently provide (such as bootloaders or rbutils or the most recent actual Rockbox releases), or the current state of SVN. At the moment, we don't provide simulator binaries, so the bug reports should be against the current code state. If simulator binaries start being provided, that situation may change.

That's basically my point - if you make a bug report against anything but that, it's almost certainly going to get a response "can you reproduce it with the current code" so you should just start from current anyway.

In this case, the problem isn't something that's likely to have been fixed because it's not something anyone's tried to address, but the issue is that reports should always try to meet those conditions because most times they're going to have to anyway.

There's still a question as to whether the current state will even be considered a bug - at the moment it certainly does what the programmers expected it to do, which would qualify relatively clearly as "not a bug" and since there's no documentation for or released sim, nothing is actually working incorrectly. It could easily be closed by a dev as "this is how it's expected to work, file a patch if you want to change it."


The 3.5 simulator is basically useful for building 3.5 compatible WPSes, and for checking things in the 3.5 manual (where they're applicable to a simulator).
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 05, 2010, 06:11:22 PM
Basically, bug reports should be against one of two things - a binary we release or currently provide (such as bootloaders or rbutils or the most recent actual Rockbox releases), or the current state of SVN.

How about making that official (somehow)?

At the moment, we don't provide simulator binaries
You don't. Others do.

That's basically my point - if you make a bug report against anything but that, it's almost certainly going to get a response "can you reproduce it with the current code"
I think you are mistaken. My reports have not.

There's still a question as to whether the current state will even be considered a bug - at the moment it certainly does what the programmers expected it to do, which would qualify relatively clearly as "not a bug"
That would be really stupid, because it would make it impossible for useful reporting to be made by anyone not having knowledge of what the programmer intended.

and since there's no documentation for or released sim
You just said the baseline reference was programmer intent. Now you're saying it is documentation??

Anyway you're mistaken. Sim has documentation: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator .
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on May 05, 2010, 06:35:21 PM
Again, the WIKI is not official documentation. You've been told this a few times, but continue to refer to is as something having documentation.

Someone other than Rockbox providing builds does not matter. There's hundreds of unsupported builds out there that we don't accept bug reports on, whether they're modified code or unmodified.


The manual documents programmer intent. If something matches the manual, it's working as intended. If something does not match the manual, it's not. If it crashes, corrupts data, or otherwise harms data or prevents itself from being used, it's not working as intended.

If you think it should to X but have no official documentation to back up that it should do X, then you should ask a developer of that part of it "is this how it's supposed to work" before deciding that your assumption about how it's supposed to work is right, and file a bug.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 05, 2010, 06:46:56 PM
Again, the WIKI is not official documentation.
I didn't say it was.

Someone other than Rockbox providing builds does not matter.
"Other than Rockbox". What are you talking about?

The manual documents programmer intent.
Except where it doesn't - such as here.

you should ask a developer of that part of it "is this how it's supposed to work" before deciding that your assumption about how it's supposed to work is right, and file a bug.
I have made no assumption. The simulator has keys for Power and Close marked on the UI. That's self-documentation. These keys don't work.

Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: bluebrother on May 06, 2010, 01:10:01 PM
At the moment, we don't provide simulator binaries
You don't. Others do.

This doesn't make use support binaries provided by others. This is open source, anyone can provide binaries on his own (given that he compiles with the license). However, as we have no control about such binaries why should we even want to support those? Most open source projects only provide source code, and don't support binaries at all.

The manual documents programmer intent.
Except where it doesn't - such as here.

I'm not sure if you're still discussing this stupid Alt-F4 thing but if you do please point me to where the manual tells that Alt-F4 quits the simulator. Besides, the simulator is basically a development tool and not an application we provide.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 06, 2010, 04:30:28 PM
However, as we have no control about such binaries why should we even want to support those?
I don't see anyone suggesting you'd want to support binaries. Or for that matter you'd want to support the simulator at all. But since Rockbox Flyspray has a category for Simulator, I presume it is because the project wants to hear about simulator bugs that are found. If not, please do tell me what you think it is for.

I'm not sure if you're still discussing this stupid Alt-F4 thing but if you do please point me to where the manual tells that Alt-F4 quits the simulator.
Nowhere I can see. However, given that the manual is unofficial, what do you care?
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: bluebrother on May 06, 2010, 04:36:08 PM
However, as we have no control about such binaries why should we even want to support those?
I don't see anyone suggesting you'd want to support binaries. Or for that matter you'd want to support the simulator at all. But since Rockbox Flyspray has a category for Simulator, I presume it is because the project wants to hear about simulator bugs that are found. If not, please do tell me what you think it is for.

If there is a developer tool does it make sense to track issues with that tool even if it's not an end user tool or not?

Quote
I'm not sure if you're still discussing this stupid Alt-F4 thing but if you do please point me to where the manual tells that Alt-F4 quits the simulator.
Nowhere I can see. However, given that the manual is unofficial, what do you care?

The Rockbox manual is the official manual, and officially maintained and supported. Who said that the manual is unofficial?
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: chrisjj on May 06, 2010, 04:46:35 PM
If there is a developer tool does it make sense to track issues with that tool even if it's not an end user tool or not?
In my experience issues in any currently-used tool are worth tracking.

The Rockbox manual is the official manual, and officially maintained and supported. Who said that the manual is unofficial?
The Simulator manual (such as exists) is in the Wiki, and it has been said here that the wiki is unofficial.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: AlexP on May 06, 2010, 04:57:01 PM
The Simulator manual (such as exists) is in the Wiki, and it has been said here that the wiki is unofficial.

There is only one manual - the manual.  Anything in the wiki isn't it.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: Llorean on May 06, 2010, 04:57:15 PM
The Rockbox manual is the official manual, and officially maintained and supported. Who said that the manual is unofficial?
The Simulator manual (such as exists) is in the Wiki, and it has been said here that the wiki is unofficial.

There is only one thing called the manual, and that's what's behind the manual link on the left side of rockbox.org pages. The wiki page on the simulator is not the simulator manual. You can't just assume our saying "the manual" references a wiki page because you've decided to call it by some other name.

Much like documentation is about something, the simulator simulates something. The manual that describes most of the simulator behavior is the manual for the target it simulates. There are some exceptions here (again - you can't close Rockbox, etc) but the simulator is a development tool and the rest of its expected behavior can be found by examining the source or asking someone.

It's really not that difficult.
Title: Re: Bug: Sansa e200V2 simulator ALT+F4 fails
Post by: AlexP on May 06, 2010, 05:02:12 PM
This thread is getting highly repetitive and pointless so I've locked it.  Shout at me in PM if you disagree (with reasons).