Rockbox Technical Forums

Rockbox General => Rockbox General Discussion => Topic started by: Llorean on February 25, 2008, 08:53:12 PM

Title: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on February 25, 2008, 08:53:12 PM
Well folks, this is it. Number 10,000. So, I've been your moderator and general annoyance for some time now, and as with this post I reach the 10,000 posts mark, I'm taking a small step back and looking at how things have gone.

I know I've yelled at a few (lots) of you. And I know there have been bannings, and rules violations. I like to think that I've enforced the rules as they're written. I've tried to be impartial. If you break the rules, no matter how respected or disliked you are, no matter how many or few posts you've got, I've tried to treat you the same.

So here's your chance to yell back. Call me on anything you like. Make something up, or point me at real problems. Offer advice for the next 10,000 posts, or just tell me how much of a jerk I am.

I'll leave this thread up for about a week or so, then I'll probably delete it to keep these forums on topic. But here's your chance, let me have it! But remember, watch your language. You don't have to be strictly on topic, in this one thread, but do try to keep it appropriate.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: cool_walking_ on February 25, 2008, 08:57:59 PM
Awesome job.

Although this could be seen as off-topic.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Strife89 on February 25, 2008, 09:58:52 PM
Congrats! :)
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: zajacattack on February 25, 2008, 10:01:30 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well, Llorean, I know I've gotten ticked at you before, but I think you often show good judgement and keep the forums in order.

I just sometimes wish the mods would post a little more than "Do a search." or "Read the manual.", but that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 25, 2008, 11:54:32 PM
You're mean and you stink. Haha. So clever.

EDIT: Wow, my 50th post on every forum I've ever been on has always been really useless and stupid. I'm ridiculous. Thank you so much for helping me continue this legacy.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Davide-NYC on February 26, 2008, 12:04:20 AM
I think you are a "saint". I know few people with as much patience as you. Good work on the forums (and in IRC) and congrats!
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: shoe on February 26, 2008, 12:57:12 AM
I have read through a ton of the forum, and I think you are actually very patient with people.  Thanks for all the effort.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Chronon on February 26, 2008, 01:58:07 AM
The Friars Club this ain't!  

;D
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: LambdaCalculus on February 26, 2008, 06:02:54 AM
You've been doing a great job, Llorean. I've never seen anyone with the patience you have. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Bagder on February 26, 2008, 07:21:07 AM
So, how long time did it take you to reach 10,000 ?
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on February 26, 2008, 11:35:13 AM
I registered on these forums October 5, 2005. The forums say I've average 11.467 posts per day (which really doesn't sound like that much when you present it in those terms). Though I was following the project on and off for some time before that, and lurking in the IRC channel from time to time.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: kugel. on February 26, 2008, 01:03:35 PM
So, the pickiest person I know picked his 10'000th post. Congratulation! Keep up you good work, but try to do it in a more friendly way. From personal experience, you tend to annoy people who search for help by being picky and impatient, and sometimes even rude.

But still, you need rockbox and rockbox needs you. You've been a great contributor spending much effort and heart into this little but growing project. I wholeheartedly hope you you continue this.


PS: Only freaks have 10'000 posts ;)
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: AlexP on February 26, 2008, 01:09:39 PM

From personal experience, you tend to annoy people who search for help by being picky and impatient, and sometimes even rude.


Well, much as I disagree with Kugel, if people searched, there wouldn't be a problem :)

Still, anyway congrats Llorean.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: bluebrother on February 26, 2008, 01:11:43 PM
While I disagree with kugel you being picky and annoying I agree that you're a great contributor. On some occasions I wish I'd had your patience ... ;)
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: gnu on February 26, 2008, 03:41:27 PM

I just sometimes wish the mods would post a little more than "Do a search." or "Read the manual.", but that's just my opinion.


If he posted more than "Do a search" he wouldn't have reached 10000 posts by now ;)

Congrats, Llorean!
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: bzavala on February 26, 2008, 06:01:32 PM
About 4,000 of those posts only say "Please don't double post"! :P

j/k :D

seriously... good job... keep it up. Just recently I learned you are in Houston.. I'm in Dallas so maybe I'll meet you someday :)


Ben

EDIT: Oh yeah... you're on the forums, on the mailing list, and on Flyspray... how do you find time?? oh yeah and on IRC...
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: cool_walking_ on February 26, 2008, 06:40:43 PM
EDIT: Oh yeah... you're on the forums, on the mailing list, and on Flyspray... how do you find time?? oh yeah and on IRC...

It's simple really - what we know as "Llorean" is actually the Lifelike Lifeform Optimized for Rational Exploration and Accurate Nullification (of double posts).  It's a complex setup of computers in a neural network, purpose-built by the army for forum moderation.  Over the years, it was adapted for IRC and mailing lists, then given away to the Rockbox project leaders when the government realised they had no forums running on any of their servers.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: zajacattack on February 26, 2008, 10:13:17 PM
HAHA! Maybe Llorean is a robot....
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Chronon on February 26, 2008, 11:55:31 PM
Nice one, cool_walking_!           ;D
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Strife89 on February 27, 2008, 03:51:58 PM
Two words: Hilarious! ;) ;D
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: seani on February 27, 2008, 04:45:32 PM

Well folks, this is it. Number 10,000. So, I've been your moderator and general annoyance for some time now, and as with this post I reach the 10,000 posts mark, I'm taking a small step back and looking at how things have gone.

I know I've yelled at a few (lots) of you. And I know there have been bannings, and rules violations. I like to think that I've enforced the rules as they're written. I've tried to be impartial. If you break the rules, no matter how respected or disliked you are, no matter how many or few posts you've got, I've tried to treat you the same.

So here's your chance to yell back. Call me on anything you like. Make something up, or point me at real problems. Offer advice for the next 10,000 posts, or just tell me how much of a jerk I am.

I'll leave this thread up for about a week or so, then I'll probably delete it to keep these forums on topic. But here's your chance, let me have it! But remember, watch your language. You don't have to be strictly on topic, in this one thread, but do try to keep it appropriate.


"Piss off Llorean"

Just trying to keep the thread on-topic as requested.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Twilight in Zero on February 27, 2008, 04:59:36 PM
Okay, I have to throw this one out there.


Nappa: Vegeta, what does the scouter say about Llorean's post count?!
Vegeta: It's over 10,000!!!
Nappa: What?! 10,000?!


Excellent job, man. :)
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: LambdaCalculus on February 27, 2008, 05:25:15 PM
/me throws a 16-ton weight onto Twilight in Zero for using that damn DBZ meme
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Twilight in Zero on February 27, 2008, 06:50:58 PM
/me jumps onto White Base to avoid it.



Sorry...
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: baobab68 on February 27, 2008, 07:34:57 PM
I understand about Llorean's desire to keep the signal/noise ratio of the forums to a usable level, so that users can find stuff when they do actually search.

I do find sometimes that the insiders on the project are intolerant. For myself, sometimes I almost can't bear to read the forums.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Job Van Dam on February 28, 2008, 09:59:25 AM
Alright I'm going to be honest here on my thoughts on Llorean.

I find it really funny when he berates other people for doing just about anything but I get pissed when he does it to me.

Sometimes I hate the way he talks all technical and proper and whatnot trying to sound smarter than everyone else. At the same time sometimes when I get mad with my friends I emulate the same style though.

I sometimes wonder "does he really hate modertaing? If so, why is he always on here moderating?" I think Llorean hates moderating and people but he enjoys berating people putting a spotlight on them and there mistakes.

Also at first I thought he was a girl until I found out his first name was Paul.
Also I didn't think he was the type of person to make a thread just for a ridicolous post count. If he didn't point it out who would have cared?
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: zajacattack on February 28, 2008, 10:00:17 AM
Quote
Also at first I thought he was a girl until I found out his first name was Paul.


OK, now that's just awesomely funny!
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: mikeage on February 28, 2008, 10:38:04 AM
I think Colombo described Llorean best here:

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=10102.msg77561#msg77561

:)

Nah, I think he's doing a great job; these forums are quite useful, and that doesn't just happen on its own.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: MarcGuay on February 28, 2008, 11:53:15 AM

Also at first I thought he was a girl until I found out his first name was Paul.


Same thing here, no idea why.  
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: baobab68 on February 28, 2008, 04:01:04 PM
It's so sweet, there is such a huge outpouring of *love* here...
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: mor on February 28, 2008, 10:19:45 PM
What Brazilians asked on streets have to say About Llorean:

- He´s the sexiest moderator ever! (Marcia Aranha, homeless begger)

- Never saw before ( Eduardo Miranda, wall mart cleaner(that actually haves rockbox on his ipod, but never acessed the forum)

- I hope he´s the next king of brazil.(Thiago Oliveira, student on Unesp-Sao Paulo)

- He gave me a mushroom last week ( Vera Lucia - Owner of an High Shopp)

- we love you Llorean- (childs from Branca de Neve[snowhite] junior School )

Thank you Llorean - me :)

Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: countach on February 29, 2008, 08:34:37 AM
Ah, you bad being !! >:(

I always used to ask where would be album-art in the official releases, with caustic responses from you!!

One day, I went and read the Wiki, and never asked again.. LOL


And other time..... You rebuked me very much for verifying some kind of bug causing auto wake-up issue when the ipod was off... just because I ran an unsuported build !!!
hahahahahh






Well, now seriously: Congratulations. In fact, I use to moderate some forum and i treat in the same way at those lazy people like (sometimes) me.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: acb5649 on March 01, 2008, 10:55:38 AM

Well folks, this is it. Number 10,000. So, I've been your moderator and general annoyance for some time now, and as with this post I reach the 10,000 posts mark, I'm taking a small step back and looking at how things have gone.

I know I've yelled at a few (lots) of you. And I know there have been bannings, and rules violations. I like to think that I've enforced the rules as they're written. I've tried to be impartial. If you break the rules, no matter how respected or disliked you are, no matter how many or few posts you've got, I've tried to treat you the same.

So here's your chance to yell back. Call me on anything you like. Make something up, or point me at real problems. Offer advice for the next 10,000 posts, or just tell me how much of a jerk I am.

I'll leave this thread up for about a week or so, then I'll probably delete it to keep these forums on topic. But here's your chance, let me have it! But remember, watch your language. You don't have to be strictly on topic, in this one thread, but do try to keep it appropriate.


He says this but one of my posts was rudely removed from this forum.
And I still think Llorean is a wierd name.
Ha.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: AlexP on March 01, 2008, 10:56:20 AM
Thank you, that is much better.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: thenrik on March 01, 2008, 12:43:07 PM
Hi:

  Congrats! Thanks for the generous donation of your time as well as your patience keeping the forums in order.

Tom
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: ki on March 02, 2008, 01:24:52 AM
Quote
From personal experience, you tend to annoy people who search for help by being picky and impatient, and sometimes even rude.


Quote
I do find sometimes that the insiders on the project are intolerant. For myself, sometimes I almost can't bear to read the forums.


Quote
I sometimes wonder "does he really hate modertaing? If so, why is he always on here moderating?" I think Llorean hates moderating and people but he enjoys berating people putting a spotlight on them and there mistakes.



To be perfectly honest, I agree with all these statements. Although I have never personally had a problem with anyone here, after browsing the forum over the last couple of months, I have often felt that the admin and moderators can be extremely picky, negative, and quite rude on many occasions. I also have the impression that they really doesn't like moderating the forums and seem fed-up with constantly having to berate people.

Having said that, after noticing that there only seems to be one administrator and one moderator (?) I DO understand that it must be quite a task to try to organize everything and keep the forum running smoothly. If that is too much for one person, perhaps there should be more than one?


The point I really want to make is that if the moderators of a forum have an excessively pedantic or negative attitude towards the users, I believe that it has a huge effect on the community as a whole. Hopefully I don't have to point out why a strong, positive community is such an important thing, especially in an open-source project such as this one.
And unfortunately, I have not found the rockbox community to be a particularly positive or welcoming one.


It is not my wish or intention to complain or give negative feedback here. Instead, I hope that the admin, moderators, and any other regular posters here keep these points in mind.

If you ARE going to reprimand people, please give consistent reasons (sometimes a brief reason is given, sometimes none at all). Not only will this help the original poster, but if other people see the reason, then they are less likely to make the same 'mistake'. (Thus it should also create less work for the moderators)
Please make an effort to be polite.
Please try to keep a level of maturity. I have seen cases where moderators have responded quite immaturely and rudely. (For example, on the second page of this thread: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15155.15)

While the original poster of this thread (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15596.0) was quite ridiculous, it should have given a clue to the moderators that they had clearly upset someone and perhaps might need to rethink the way they handled the situation. Some of the later posts in the thread also raise some relevant points I think.


If you browse around, I think you can find a lot of examples of rude, snappy, sometimes immature comments made by moderators on this forum.
In many cases, the moderators do not seem to contribute anything positive to the conversation at all, and simply seem to express their own frustration or tell the poster off. (Example: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15692.0).

Sometimes responses like these may or may not be justified (in the above example, the original posted should probably have appended the post to an apparently existing thread), but I do not think this kind of response is ever appropriate.

The effect of that kind of response is probably going to be that the original poster (whose first post it was) will not return to the forums again. That may or may not concern you, but as an administrator for a community forum, I think it probably should. Another byproduct may be that other people reading the thread may be turned off by the community and rockbox in general.  

If a comment (or any action for that matter) is not going to be constructive, then sometimes refraining from commenting at all might be a better option.



As I said, I am not trying to place any blame here. I am not trying to point-the-finger or flame anyone. I am simply trying to point out the potential detriment to the community, and hope that the moderators and all the people here think more about the community and what they want to achieve or express with their comments.

I think Rockbox is a great project with a lot of potential, and hopefully the community can stay positive and supportive of each other.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 01:48:33 AM
I think one key problem is this: In regards to my posts (especially the one linked in the third link) you're assuming a tone that doesn't exist. Read it without intonation, using dictionary definition of the words, and I don't think you'll find anything rude about that one.

In regards to the first one, sure, there was sarcasm in the last sentence, but I don't see how any other part of the comment was rude. I explained the manpower situation.

In regards to the second one, I don't see anything wrong with my comment there at all. Could you explain it to me?

People berate me for my word choice, and for my tone. I'm speaking English. They're written words. There is no tone except that which you imagine for yourself. I can't stop you for becoming angry with me because you've decided I'm trying to sound one way. Or because you think I'm speaking down to you, or being condescending.

I implore you to attempt to read my sentences without tone, as in the vast majority of cases that's how they're written. Word choice is simply a matter of clarity: I use the words that I feel will leave least room for confusion. If you think I'm trying to sound smarter than I am, again, it's not something I can do anything about. I have a manner of typing, and it will continue. A technical sentence is usually less ambiguous than a conversational one, and the purpose of these forums is to convey information, not to chat.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: zajacattack on March 02, 2008, 02:09:13 AM
It's just the problem of the human nature to think that everyone has a bad tone to what they say.

BUT, I do agree that better word choices can PARTIALLY alleviate this problem.

And, I must admit, I think the mods should be consistent. Sometimes reasons are given and sometimes not. It should be the same for all the same circumstances.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: baobab68 on March 02, 2008, 02:31:56 AM
It is a shame that this thread is going to be deleted. It should at least be filed away as a reminder, something that mods can go back and read occasionally.

There are two or three mods that I have in mind constantly as I read through what Ki wrote. I don't think it was always about Llorean at all.

Since the project happily takes donations, it needs to be prepared to listen to what its users have to say.

Not everyone is experienced on the internet, and with coding, as everyone else. It's all very well to say "Search!" and "Read the wiki" - but some people just have no concept.

I know where you're coming from sometimes - people who ask for someone to "make" a particular type of WPS, or "make" a ROCKbox version of their favourite game, for example - but I just think the approach is sometimes a bit cruel. The thread that Ki quoted:

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15596.0

was clearly coming from a misguided person. The responses were just *mean-spirited*. There is nothing to indicate from the Paypal icon on the main page, what level of support or influence you can expect to get if you donate. He/she might have felt that it was totally kosher to ask for a feature. I'll admit I've not read the IRC logs to see what was said in IRC though.

I guess when it comes down to it, it's an individual's decision as to whether they do or don't participate in the forums. I must admit sometimes that I think I should wean myself off of these particular ones.

Llorean - I'm going to try reading your posts in a monotone from now on, giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I say these things in the same spirit as Ki, and from the same perspective - it's a fantastic project and a fantastic product, however the forums, while being a great resource technically, are not for the faint-hearted.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 02:36:43 AM
The definition of donation: "Donation is a gift to a fund or cause" The key word there is gift. You give a gift without expecting anything in return.

I really don't understand why a person would expect anything at all in response to a donation. The word was chosen specifically to imply that you're not getting anything back. In all seriousness, are you suggesting we need to contain a link to a dictionary, or rewrite the dictionary definition visibly on the site, for people who don't actually know what donate means?
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: ki on March 02, 2008, 02:57:31 AM
As I said, it is not my intention to place any blame on you, or single you out. But since the topic was raised, I thought it would be appropriate (and hopefully beneficial) to express my impression of the community from the perspective of a relatively new user. Everyone loses perspective sometimes, and I imagine that that is especially the case when involved heavily in a project and being in charge of administrating discussions on the project. My hope in writing the post was to try to bring a different perspective in relation to maintaining a healthy community.
I linked to a few threads to try backup what I was trying to say, rather than simply expressing abstract statements or opinions.
I don't really want to get into a debate about right and wrong, but I will try to clarify my statements a little.

For the posts in question from the third link;

Quote
If there are already threads on this, why did you start yet another one? In fact, what is the question here?


I felt that this response to a user's first post was a little abrasive (even with flat intonation).
I agree that the second response was not, by nature, rude at all. However I also did not feel that anything constructive came out of the dialogue or that any kind of progress was made.

I understand that it must be frustrating when people do not follow rules or guidelines when posting, or do not bother to do more extensive research. But might I suggest that giving some kind of very brief information related to the topic as well as making it clear why a post is inappropriate or misguided would be a more positive way to handle the situation?
Especially for someone who is new and may not yet 'know better'.



As for the first link, I felt that the first half of your response expressing the manpower situation was indeed constructive and appropriate. Unfortunately, the second part seemed to make it personal, even though the person who made the post in question repeatedly stated that he was not complaining and simply expressing a viewpoint.
Quote
And of course people like you never pitch in by starting to learb so you can help next time Instead you just say you can't code, and give your opinion of how we could spend our time better as if we were too stupid to realize that playing music well is the single key function of a DAP.



In the second link, I was not referring to your response in that thread at all, but merely observing that when situations like that arise where someone is clearly upset by the way things have been handled, it may reflect a problem in the way a situation is moderated.
I do apologize for not making my point clearer in this part, and I shall try to modify it.

Again, I am not simply trying to point out faults on anyones part. I am just trying to raise an issue which I feel would benefit the general health of the community if it is considered.
It's nothing personal, and my comments apply to everyone equally, but since you are the administrator and this thread seems to be relevant, I thought that this was the appropriate place to raise the issue.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 03:16:58 AM
In regards to the first one, as there was no question in the other person's post, should I not have asked what the question was? The other alternative was to say "There is no question here. As per the guidelines, this post is irrelevant" and locked the thread. I instead gave them the benefit of the doubt, and asked for clarification.

As for the issue of guidelines, everyone on this forum has been warned to read the guidelines at least once by the time I get to them. I feel it's somewhat redundant to have to tell them again. The only way they could not "know better" as you put it is if they chose to ignore the warning during registration. Frankly, why should it become my problem that they chose to ignore it?

This is the one thing I haven't understood, from everyone who complains about how we enforce the guidelines here, honestly. Why exactly does the burden of a user's willing ignorance fall on me, rather than on them for choosing to ignore the rules? Why is it my duty to be polite and kind to a person who has, essentially, walked right past the sign that says "Please remove your shoes at the door" and tromped mud over my carpet?

I know it's not a perfect analogy, and I know these forums aren't "mine", but that is essentially the situation. There's a sign outside, and they've chosen to ignore it, and we, as the administrators of this forum, are expected to smile and nod and clean up after them? I know we could be a bit more polite sometimes, but you seem when saying  we should give
Quote
kind of very brief information related to the topic
suggest that we should reward them for their behaviour? I don't understand this.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: baobab68 on March 02, 2008, 03:21:45 AM

In all seriousness, are you suggesting we need to contain a link to a dictionary, or rewrite the dictionary definition visibly on the site, for people who don't actually know what donate means?


No, just that you try to understand why he might have misunderstood. The way that OP stated the situation, he/she made it sound like there was a real misunderstanding there.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 03:25:14 AM
Yes, but what you're not aware of is how the OP greatly misrepresented the situation.

There was no misunderstanding in his original two posts on the topic. He offered to donate money for a post, was told cleanly that it's not how we accept donations, and responded that he merely wished to make that suggestion to clarify how much he valued that port.

All well and good. Except his post was in the "New Ports" section, with guidelines clearly posted that the threads are for technical discussion. A different member of the staff came by and routinely removed the post and responses to keep the area clear. Until this point there had been no harsh words or ill feelings.

Then he chose to explode, not because of the misunderstanding over donations, but rather because his posts were removed, and he felt that it was a "dis" (disrespectful action, for non-English users) that his posts were removed without notice, despite clearly posted guidelines in regard to the purpose of that forum.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: ki on March 02, 2008, 03:37:43 AM
Quote
I really don't understand why a person would expect anything at all in response to a donation. The word was chosen specifically to imply that you're not getting anything back. In all seriousness, are you suggesting we need to contain a link to a dictionary, or rewrite the dictionary definition visibly on the site, for people who don't actually know what donate means?


I don't think anyone is suggesting that the person writing that post was justified in expecting a port to be developed in return for their donation. And if you read that original post (as misguided as it was), I think you will find that the person was not upset because of not receiving anything in return for their donation. I think what the person may have been angry about was the response they received to their inquiry and the subsequent deletion of the post.  

For the record, I agree that people have no right to expect to get something in return when giving a donation. But in a community project surely the members of the community deserve to be heard and treated with courtesy. I think that's true regardless of whether donations are given or not.



As baobab68 said, I am definitely not trying to suggest that anything I have said is exclusively about Llorean. I am referring to the community as a whole.
I only wrote in this thread because, well, he asked people to do so. (Thank you for doing so by the way Llorean  ;)
But seriously, I hope no one takes this discussion personally, because it's about all of us in the community, and I hope there can be some positive change as a community that comes out of it.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 03:40:47 AM
I'm quite certain he was upset about the removal of his posts, as I read both his original post, the single response to it, and his single response to that one response, and there was no sign of anger or discourtesy (even arguable discourtesy) in those three posts on either side. Since he had the last word, and he's shown some willingness later to express anger, I'm fairly confident that it would've been there if he was angry with the first response.

And I didn't think baobab68 was saying he was justified. But he did say
Quote
there is nothing to indicate from the Paypal icon on the main page, what level of support or influence you can expect to get if you donate.
and I find this statement entirely incorrect. The word "donate" alone indicates everything that can be indicated about what level of added support or influence you can expect to get.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: ki on March 02, 2008, 04:18:36 AM
Well, without wanting this going around in circles and not achieving anything at all. I'd just like to say that I think you're points are quite valid Llorean.
And I also think that mine are quite valid. (And Baobab68's too for that matter).

I don't think I have suggested "rewarding" behavior at any point. And I do understand the situation from your point of view.
But it's also important to try to see the situation from other perspectives isn't it? Especially as it seems to be that a lot of people are apparently 'misusing' the forums.
Perhaps it is unrealistic to expect people to have the same knowledge as you or other experienced users. Of course there are going to be people in any community or forum who say inappropriate things, or don't seem to be able to do things the 'right way', and I'm not suggesting that you should have to pander to them. But if you notice the same things coming up again and again (like having to remind people of the rules etc), then I would suggest that it might be beneficial for you as much as anyone else to reconsider how to deal with it.
At the moment it seems like there is no mutual understanding going on, which is never good for community.

I think you are probably in a better position to come up with solutions to this issue, but I would suggest that everyone who is an active member of the community get involved with reminding users of the guidelines or rules in a polite and friendly manner. That way the responsibility is not only on the admins, and hopefully everyone can get along a little better.
Perhaps even the guidelines need to be rethought about and possibly refined.
Perhaps some of the guidelines could be defined as strict 'rules' and other parts a little more lenient (as the term guidelines implies).

These are all just suggestions, and I leave them with you (as a community) to do with as you please.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Febs on March 02, 2008, 07:52:03 AM

It is a shame that this thread is going to be deleted. It should at least be filed away as a reminder, something that mods can go back and read occasionally.


In most instances, we do not actually delete threads.  Instead, they get removed to a portion of the forum that the moderating staff has access to, but the general public does not.

Quote
Since the project happily takes donations, it needs to be prepared to listen to what its users have to say.


We have no fewer than six different ways that users can give feedback:  (1) the developer mailing list, (2) the user mailing list, (3) these forums, (4) the Flyspray tracker, (5) the #rockbox IRC channel, and, perhaps to a lesser extent (6) the wiki.  

Quote
The thread that Ki quoted:

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15596.0

was clearly coming from a misguided person. The responses were just *mean-spirited*. There is nothing to indicate from the Paypal icon on the main page, what level of support or influence you can expect to get if you donate. He/she might have felt that it was totally kosher to ask for a feature. I'll admit I've not read the IRC logs to see what was said in IRC though.


I don't see that there is anything at all mean-spirited about my response.  In fact, in light of the overt threads contained in the first post, I thought it was fairly restrained.    I agree with your general observation that these forums could be more welcoming.  In this one particular instance, however, I don't believe that there is anything that I could or should have done differently.  The threads in the New Ports forum have a very specific purpose and that purpose is stated very clearly in the sticky at the top of the forum.

In any event, I appreciate the time that you and ki have spent to offer observations in this thread and thank you for doing so.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: soap on March 02, 2008, 09:39:38 AM
All the below is the opinion of Soap and not necessarily the opinion of Rockbox developers.



The effect of that kind of response is probably going to be that the original poster (whose first post it was) will not return to the forums again. That may or may not concern you, but as an administrator for a community forum, I think it probably should. Another byproduct may be that other people reading the thread may be turned off by the community and rockbox in general.  


I picked a quote of yours at random to use as a springboard for my story...

I, personally, think there are a number of differences between this forum and others you may be a member (or frequent browser of) which may not be taken into account when complaints are made.

1 - This is a very open forum.  We air our dirty laundry.  Many of the posts which receive replies you dislike would have been trash-canned on sight on other forums.  Many of the users who are frequent and flagrant violators of the rules would have had their accounts deleted on other forums.  
Does this clutter up the forums with responses to non-productive users?  Yes it does.
Does this provide an opportunity to clarify forum policy to users who perhaps started out on the wrong foot?  Yes it does.  
The second result is well worth the first IMHO.

2 - This is the forum of an open-source project.  Unlike Sandisk's forums (where they are selling a product and provide a forum as cheap-technical support for the boosting of their profits) Rockbox has no real incentive (outside good will towards men) to provide a forum at all.  This seems to confuse many people.  
Rockbox does not need users.  
Really, it doesn't.  
Rockbox is not first-and-foremost a community (like HydrogenAudio or AnythingButIpod) which needs members to maintain interesting discussion.  Rockbox is a small group of programmers who are working together from a variety of motives to write a software program.  Most (if not all) of them would be doing it regardless of how many people (outside themselves) were using it.  
This is not trying to justify an intolerant attitude towards users - but to explain why the Rockbox forums have a different set of expectations placed upon participants.
Again - users aren't needed.  Is it any wonder users who come in making demands invoke intolerant attitudes?  If someone wants to contribute - they are welcome to.  Remember, though, Rockbox is not a democracy - a certain level of group think is not only existent - but required to keep the machine moving.  Think of the attitude as an evolved filter set.  Those who pass through are more likely to be functioning parts of the machine.  Those who get chewed up and spit out are less likely to have ever been contributers.

Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 01:45:05 PM
Just to elaborate a little bit on what Soap's saying there:

This doesn't mean we don't want to give support. But the main reason for these forums is to be a channel of communication regarding technical issues. Development concerns, bugs, support issues, etc. Because they aren't "conversation" or "community" forums, that means we do have rather strict rules. A major part of the reasoning for his is to try to keep the search feature relevant. If we have 40,000 posts of people chatting about MP3 player X and saying things like "I'd really like a port too", and only 3 of them are development posts, when someone searches for what information has already been discovered about it, they'll have a lot more to read through than if we keep the forums as tidy as we can.

Then, we have more than 15,000 members. If everyone asked every question that came to mind, we'd have thousands of duplicate posts in our forums. Yes, I can understand the idea of "If someone asks a question answered in the manual, you can go ahead and answer it while reminding them to search." I agree this is the politest response. I disagree that it's the best one for our forums. In the time that I've watched these forums, I've seen this method tried several times, and in my experience, here, it results in the user coming back and asking more questions that are in the manual, because it's easier than looking it up themselves. This then makes it harder to find actual new information on say, the subject of USB, because any time someone searches for it, they find 400 posts on "How do I connect USB?"

It is unfortunate, but some degree of impoliteness is to be expected when rules are enforced. Because when it boils down to it, "Please search the manual, our guidelines state that you must before posting and your question is answered within" is going to sound impolite to many people, especially when their question could've been answered with less words.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: mbbda on March 02, 2008, 02:15:57 PM
This is something that has seemed odd to me..

You say that the reason for strict enforcement of the rules on the forums is so that the answer to technical questions can be searched quickly, yet when someone posts good technical information on the forum they are often told (sometimes abruptly) that they should not have done so & the information should have been put on the wiki, where in my experience, the searching is difficult.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: AlexP on March 02, 2008, 02:22:14 PM
Permanent information should go on the wiki, yes, so that we can point people to it when they ask a question answered by it.  I agree that the wiki is currently sub-optimally organised but if it were done properly, it would be easier than the forums to find fixed information.  What we want easily searchable is answers to questions that people have asked before that others may ask in the future.

Personally when someone posts permanent information, I always try to say, "thanks very much, but...".  We honestly do appreciate help like that.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 02:25:05 PM
The wiki has a search function that I find, for keyword searching, to be just as effective as the keyword search in the forums. At least, in my experience.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: gevaerts on March 02, 2008, 02:46:09 PM
I think the main "problem" with the wiki search is that on the wiki front page there's this "Go" textbox that looks like a search box but isn't.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 02:50:40 PM
Good point. But, that still doesn't make the forums the right place for static information. ;)
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: soap on March 02, 2008, 03:04:05 PM

This is something that has seemed odd to me..

You say that the reason for strict enforcement of the rules on the forums is so that the answer to technical questions can be searched quickly, yet when someone posts good technical information on the forum they are often told (sometimes abruptly) that they should not have done so & the information should have been put on the wiki, where in my experience, the searching is difficult.


1 - Search the wiki for static information such as How To's and datasheets and test results.
2 - Search the forums for frequently asked questions (not covered in the manual) and clarifications.

See - I think it is #2 which is what confuses people.  In the ideal world the forums would be a fluid, dynamic, place where questions are asked about topics which are not covered in the static documentation.  If it is found said question actually involves Rockbox the answer can be placed in the static documentation (manual, wiki).

When people fail to put forth the effort to read and search the static documentation they are in fact implicitly stating their time is more valuable than that of others.  
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 03:08:47 PM
On a related note, it might be time to clean up some of the millions of repeated questions in the forum. Or rather, put into effect a policy on that.

For example, "If a post is older than two weeks, and contains no information not in the wiki or manual, and no questions not answered in either of those documents or another thread, it may be removed" with "removed" being redefined to "placed in an unsearchable archive in case we need to recover it later for some reason."

Basically, since we migrated to the new forums, we haven't done any cleaning, and while I don't expect the total searchable posts to decrease drastically instantly, it would be nice to make available the option for experts/mods/admins to trim the fat a bit when nothing else is going on, if they feel like it.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: mbbda on March 02, 2008, 03:16:38 PM
When I first came to the Rockbox forums I remember thinking that the moderators were incredibly harsh & way OTT.  However, after a while you get used to it & come to understand it is not personal and  it is just the way it is & what a good job the moderators actually do.

It is just, like has been said on here before, that it is very abrasive to the newbie, who is not going to read the guidelines before making their first few posts (I am afraid that this is just life).

Edit.

something that I would also like to mention is that, I and I suspect most people watch the forums every day.  It is somewhat addictive.  You check out today's posts & if anything catches you interest then you read it.
I have found out most of the interesting things that I know about Rockbox this way.  If the guidelines were followed to the letter, lots of good information would go straight to the wiki & I would never see it.  The wiki is OK if you are searching something specific that you probably know or expect to be there but I think a/the forum benefits from being less formal.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 03:20:11 PM
Frankly though, the newbie is warned before they make any posts that
Quote
The rules in this forum are heavily enforced.
in bold letters on the registration page.

I'm willing to accept they don't know, and we all try to not to be too harsh on the first offense. But it's really the new user's responsibility, isn't it? They clicked "I agree", if they didn't read what they agreed to, why should we act any different because of it?
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: scorche on March 02, 2008, 03:26:39 PM
...the information should have been put on the wiki, where in my experience, the searching is difficult.

As a quick note, if you find our wiki search inadequate (which I admit that I sometimes do if I am not sure of what I am looking for), you can always type this into google to use their search engine.

Code: [Select]
ThingThatIAmSearchingFor site:www.rockbox.org/twiki
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: zajacattack on March 02, 2008, 03:27:45 PM
I don't think a lot of people know that they can do that though, but maybe they do, and I just assume too much ignorance.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 03:32:59 PM
There's also the search box on the left of the front page of Rockbox.org, which searches everything at www.rockbox.org (wiki, mailing list logs, and irc logs).
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: scorche on March 02, 2008, 03:36:29 PM

I don't think a lot of people know that they can do that though, but maybe they do, and I just assume too much ignorance.


That is why I posted that...
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: zajacattack on March 02, 2008, 03:37:02 PM
I got an idea! (Hear me out on this) Why not move the search box to like the center of the homepage (perhaps below the logo and the supported players)? Or, somewhere VERY visible and clear, just so people notice it?
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: Llorean on March 02, 2008, 03:38:51 PM
"Why not put the manual links in the middle." "Why not put the wiki link in the middle." "Why not put the current build link in the middle." Seriously, there are several competitors for "most important link", but there's this great menu bar on the left that contains all of them. I don't think breaking the existing layout is really gonna help in a significant way.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: soap on March 02, 2008, 03:57:18 PM
Perhaps an AJAX search field which follows your mouse everywhere you go on site?

 ;D
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: mbbda on March 02, 2008, 04:00:57 PM
Code: [Select]
ThingThatIAmSearchingFor site:www.rockbox.org/twiki

Good info I didn't know, Thankyou.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: baobab68 on March 02, 2008, 05:06:12 PM

something that I would also like to mention is that, I and I suspect most people watch the forums every day.  It is somewhat addictive.  You check out today's posts & if anything catches you interest then you read it.
I have found out most of the interesting things that I know about Rockbox this way.


I totally second these comments.
Title: Re: 10,000 Posts.
Post by: rockboxacdc on March 03, 2008, 07:48:16 PM
nice job thanks for enforcing the rules ;)