Rockbox Technical Forums

Rockbox Development => New Ports => Topic started by: casainho on January 28, 2008, 08:18:42 AM

Title: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on January 28, 2008, 08:18:42 AM
Please give, discuss ideas here, just for the RockboxPlayerV1!

RockboxPlayerV1 project page:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerV1

RockboxPlayer general page:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayer



The follow ideas were written on message: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=6751.msg113183#msg113183

spark:
FYI: to use HDD in portable player you need to use the slim style (1.8") drives that are used in UMPCs. These are even smaller than laptop drives. I guess these don't come greater than 80GB to date.
http://www.hitachigst.com...9758db5deb4703e3aac4f0a0/

They are relatively expensive that 2.5" drives but still they are cheaper than flash. you could buy a 20GB slim drive for under $80

if we can support IDE interface then we can support both CF cards and HD Drive on the same electrical interface.


scharkalvin:
1.8" hard disks are more expensive that 2.5" laptop drives, but other than size they do not hold a big advantage for a use in a media player.  You can get 2.5" HDD's up to 160gb cheaply.  Using a 2.5" drive will require a larger case to put the player in, but savings in weight won't be that great over the 1.8" types.  Anyway, using a 2.5" HDD wouldn't be out of the question.  Also note that laptop drives are now going to SATA and this trend will spill over to the 1.8" size soon.

http://www.geeks.com/products_sc.asp?cat=414
http://www.geeks.com/products_sc.asp?cat=906


markun:
Why do you think that? I would expect CE-ATA to be the new standard for 1.8" drives. It's used in the 160GB version of the ipod classic.

spark:
HDD/CF interface
whether we go for 2.5" HDD due to lower cost or 1.8" HDD due to smaller size, we need an IDE interface.
the 9260 cpu has a CF controller which can be easily adapted for a HDD.
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/...rod_documents/doc6023.pdf

using SATA drives will only complicate the matter without any significant gains.

CF or SD flash
now since an IDE interface is allowing us to use CF and HDD, should we still stick to SD card for v1?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on January 28, 2008, 05:58:39 PM
Please respect our forum guidelines: Use the modify button, don't post twice in a row.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on January 29, 2008, 03:44:08 AM

Please respect our forum guidelines: Use the modify button, don't post twice in a row.

Sorry, I know that. I tough there was no problem doing this in this case. I will merge the 2 messages and delete the last one.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Davide-NYC on February 17, 2008, 06:37:47 PM
On the iRiver H1x0 series the line-in jack is also a TOSLINK lightpipe (SPDIF) jack. This allows for optical (digital) input without requiring an extra jack. I really like this design and believe that the h1x0 was the only consumer grade device to offer it. It was a good idea and would be of great benefit to recording enthusiasts.
Please add this feature to the RockboxPlayerV1 project page.

The line-out/optical output jack (on the other hand) is almost never used since I pull audio off of the DAP via USB.

My $0.02.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: pondlife on February 18, 2008, 06:06:31 AM
Responsing to Casainho's request on the ML, my personal priorities when choosing a hard disk-based player are (in order):

1) Runs Rockbox
2) Small physical size - pocketability
3) Tactile buttons (i.e. not touch sensitive)
4) High storage capaciity (80GB min)
5) Long runtime
6) Replacable battery

All other features (weight, colour screen, recording, radio) aren't so important to me.

Of the targets I've used, the Archos JBR was potentially the best, although it fails on (2).   The Iriver H300 is also very nice once upgraded to 80GB, but a little chunky, and fails on (6).

The Gigabeat was a disappointment to me purely because I find the touch sensitive controls hard to use.

Hope this input is of some use, and good luck.

pondlife
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 18, 2008, 08:17:56 AM

3) Tactile buttons (i.e. not touch sensitive)
6) Replacable battery

Thank you all for suggestions. I wrote them on wiki page :-)

Interesting seeing people asking for user-replaceable battery and knowing that actual commercial players don't follow that idea! The same with the touch sensitive interface.

pondelife, can you please say why do you want a replaceable battery? - I want to be able to have more than one charged at my pocket and be able to swap them. Is the same to you?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: GodEater on February 18, 2008, 08:24:31 AM
I'd personally rather not see the "replaceable" battery - assuming you mean the ones you have to take out and charge seperately. I prefer the Li-Ion internal battery approach, as I'm not scared of taking the thing apart once every 18 months to replace that bit myself. It's much more convenient imo.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 18, 2008, 08:39:22 AM

I'd personally rather not see the "replaceable" battery - assuming you mean the ones you have to take out and charge seperately. I prefer the Li-Ion internal battery approach, as I'm not scared of taking the thing apart once every 18 months to replace that bit myself. It's much more convenient imo.

Looks to me that Li-Ion internal battery approach is to have internal charger. Swap batteries means that we can have more than one and quickly replace them as in another electronics devices as Canon digital photo machines or Game Boy. Have swap batteries does not mean that device can't have an internally charger.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 18, 2008, 08:55:45 AM
You can have replaceable Li-Ion batteries. My phone sure does, you just slide a plastic cover off the back, out it pops, in you pop a new one. If you're designing hardware, designing a charger for the batteries ought to be pretty simple for the few people who need a separately chargeable battery (I'd simply charge one in the player, swap, then charge the other).
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Davide-NYC on February 18, 2008, 12:41:05 PM
Recording is what will set this device apart. I know that's not the focus for the majority of Rockbox developers but hear me out:

The iRiver H1x0 is rare in in that it has an optical input. This allows it compete with devices that cost $500. There is nothing on the market that competes with it in terms of versatility for the recording hobbyist. Why iRiver discontinued this product type is beyond me.

If you support high quality digital input and have robust recording this unit will be very popular.
It will fill a void that the H1x0 series left behind and this niche is currently not being serviced by any company's products AFAIK.

So my list goes like this:

1) Runs Rockbox
2) Small physical size - pocketability
3) Tactile buttons (I agree with pondlife, the gigabeat cross is finicky)
4) Nothing that protrudes too much from the case. (this was a flaw with the H1x0's joystick)
5) *Silent* storage (no moving parts!) CF?
6) Long runtime (always nice)
7) Integrated mic.
8) Line-In jack
9) Digital-In (preferably via mini-TOSLINK)
10) RTC (for time-stamping recordings)
11) Charging from a regular mini-USB port 5V (no adapter necessary)
12) *Fast* display, good for peakmeters. (the H1x0 display is too slow)

I am indifferent to the replaceable battery idea.
I am indifferent to color display.
If a CF adapter (or similar) could be used I would be fine with HD. (I'd just mod the RockBoxPlayer for CF of SSD or something)

Just don't leave out digital input!  ;D (24bit/192kHz would be ideal but 20bit/48kHz is fine too)

Davide-NYC

[NOTE] The name of the jack in question should be mini-TOSLINK.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 18, 2008, 05:40:18 PM

Recording is what will set this device apart.

12) *Fast* display, good for peakmeters. (the H1x0 display is too slow)

I am very interested in knowing what people that records are interested! Can you please detail more what are typical things that people look for? - for example, I don't understand why the digital input... can you please explain :-)
And peakmeters, for live recording?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Davide-NYC on February 18, 2008, 06:22:12 PM
Digital input is so that you can choose what Microphone Pre-Amp and what Analog to Digital converter you want to use.

Here are two popular examples of external combination mic-pre and A/D converters:


Display speed is probably not important anymore with today's technology. My complaint is specific to the H1x0 screen. It is so slow that it can be described a "blurry" when viewing any movement.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: pondlife on February 19, 2008, 07:34:32 AM

Thank you all for suggestions. I wrote them on wiki page :-)
pondelife, can you please say why do you want a replaceable battery? - I want to be able to have more than one charged at my pocket and be able to swap them. Is the same to you?

No, that's not what  I meant.  I merely meant that the battery should be easily replaceable when it reaches end-of-life.  I know that it's possible to replace the battery with pretty much all current targets, but it's not simple and safe for a complete novice.

Use of rechargable AA cells (as in the Archos models) is nice, but the compactness of Li-ion batteries is nicer.

Sounds like Llorean's phone uses the system I'd prefer.

pondlife
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Bagder on February 19, 2008, 10:17:08 AM
In fact, even the sansa e200 series has "easy replaceable" Li-Ion batteries, in that it has the battery in a separate "compartment" that is just a few screws away.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: crazybus on February 19, 2008, 09:32:18 PM
While a radio in a player isn't essential to me if this player had one I would like it to be reasonably powerful.  e.g. able to not just pick up the strongest signals.  This is because the sansa e200 isn't able to pick up any stations where I live and the c100 can only pick up a quality signal when held above the head.  Also can audio players only pickup FM signals.  AM tends to be able to pick up a signal when the transmitter is further away or even shortwave (not sure if that's still used.)
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: cool_walking_ on February 19, 2008, 09:53:32 PM
Chalk up one more for compact Li-Ion battery.

I agree recording can be something that sets this player apart.  While it's not a necessity for me, I _would_ use it quite a bit if it were there.  I'd throw in all the recording gizmos you can (so long as it's not _too_ expensive), to appeal to recording enthusiasts.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: scoz on February 20, 2008, 03:00:32 AM
If possible as well as reasonably easy access for replacing batteries, make it reasonanbly easy to replace the hard disk (assuming hard disks are being used), ie no soldering unlike in my former Archos JBRFM.  Also instead of using those bloody torx screws/bolts, that seem to get used all the time, use phillips head screws.  most people have access to a suitable screwdriver or if not they can easily find one.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 20, 2008, 03:22:37 AM

In fact, even the sansa e200 series has "easy replaceable" Li-Ion batteries, in that it has the battery in a separate "compartment" that is just a few screws away.

I prefer "easy replaceable" + easy swappable. I will differentiate this two different ideas on wiki page.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: mborus on February 20, 2008, 07:02:12 AM
Hi,

I'd like to add some thoughts as well.

I my opinion the H120 inputs and outputs are near perfect,
so I'd wish to have them just like this in the new project.

Davide-NYC wrote:
Quote
The line-out/optical output jack (on the other hand) is almost never used since I pull audio off of the DAP via USB.


In my living room I use the digital output a lot. My receiver has front input connectors for digital and analog. Connecting digitally gives me a sound quality that equals my CD-player. With digital out it's easy to claim that the RockboxPlayerV1 can sound better than most other players on the market.

Another reason for both digital input/output is that with the H120 you can chain players. I can connect the digital output to my H120, press record and then use the digital out to pass the signal to the next recorder...

FM radio in the background: If FM radio is implemented, it should be possible
to record from the radio without listening to the audio. This would allow
timeshifting features for radio.

Quote
I am very interested in knowing what people that records are interested!


I record a lot, so here's what I care about:

- Recording time longer than 6 hours in uncompressed WAV using batteries
- Recording time longer than 24 hours when connected to a power adaptor
- High quality recordings: The harddisk or CPU should not interfere with the audio. Two examples: With the line-in recordings on the Archos V1 you can hear the spin-up noise, if you search for it. On the Iriver, recording FM radio directly into mp3 disturbs the FM-reception.
- line in/microphone in combination: The iriver line-in doubles as a microphone input. This allows me to use stealth microphones without the need of a amplifier box.
- clock, so that timer recordings are possible and the date/time info of recordings are correct.
- display: in my opinion, the H120 b/w display is good enough to set recording levels correctly. I'd prefer a b/w display that's always on to a color display that needs to be turned off to save power.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: cool_walking_ on February 20, 2008, 06:48:48 PM
I never even thought about the RTC - I thought it was a given.  So yeah, RTC for me, please.

The one thing I disagree with mborus on is lack of colour display.  I watch a lot of video and use a lot of the plugins which are aided by a colour display.  So that's a fairly major thing for me.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Davide-NYC on February 20, 2008, 08:07:09 PM
I essentially agree with everything mborus said.  I think the basic idea (from a recording enthusiast perspective only) is that the H1x0 series is almost perfect.

To summarize: Starting from the iRiver H1x0 as a basic platform the only things a recording enthusiast would definitely need *in addition to what is already in an H1x0* are the following:

- Real Time Clock (probably a given)
- better that 20bit/48kHz digital input support (putting it in the professional category)
- SSD or CF or equivalent... (no moving parts/no interference)

Am I right folks?  ;D
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 04:34:28 AM
The one thing I disagree with mborus on is lack of colour display.  I watch a lot of video and use a lot of the plugins which are aided by a colour display.  So that's a fairly major thing for me.
Please read the objectives of RockboxPlayer - Good quality hardware audio player and recorder - no video player or game console;

If you want a portable video player, you have a lot of options in market, but I believe you will not find both things, with good quality.

I am being archiving suggestions on:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerWishlist
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: AlexP on February 21, 2008, 06:23:34 AM

Please read the objectives of RockboxPlayer - Good quality hardware audio player and recorder - no video player or game console;


And who defined those objectives?  Surely that too is personal preference?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 07:45:14 AM
Please read the objectives of RockboxPlayer - Good quality hardware audio player and recorder - no video player or game console;
And who defined those objectives?  Surely that too is personal preference?
I did. I started writing the idea of this project on wiki and that objectives reflects my believes.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: GodEater on February 21, 2008, 07:50:10 AM
Personally, if I were going to make a device dedicated to running Rockbox, I'd be making a device which exercised all of Rockbox's capabilities - which would mean including a colour screen.

Just my 2 pennies worth though - I accept I'm not working on developing this device, and ultimately the decisions will be made by those who are.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 08:11:00 AM
Personally, if I were going to make a device dedicated to running Rockbox, I'd be making a device which exercised all of Rockbox's capabilities - which would mean including a colour screen.

Just my 2 pennies worth though - I accept I'm not working on developing this device, and ultimately the decisions will be made by those who are.
Project to design and build a Free/Open hardware audio player for use with RockBox. --> for use with, doesn't mean it should exercised all of Rockbox's capabilities - this are things that are already decided and written.

Well, but If you read the pages about actual work, you will read about colour screen! Actual PrototypeB will use OLED 18 bit color.

And you are right - respect the work of the others developers. Thank you.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: AlexP on February 21, 2008, 11:24:31 AM



Please read the objectives of RockboxPlayer - Good quality hardware audio player and recorder - no video player or game console;

And who defined those objectives?  Surely that too is personal preference?

I did. I started writing the idea of this project on wiki and that objectives reflects my believes.


I know, that was my point.  I appreciate it was your idea, but if you ask other people for their opinions, it isn't very constructive then just to say no as they disagree with your opinions.  Why bother asking?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 21, 2008, 01:09:39 PM
Seriously, if you want exclusive control of this, rename it to "casainhoPlayerV1", but if you're going to treat it like a community project, remember that "What I want it to be" isn't always what's right for the community.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 04:04:15 PM
if you ask other people for their opinions, it isn't very constructive then just to say no as they disagree with your opinions.  Why bother asking?
I started by writing a message in ML with the subject: Suggest features for a new hardware recorder/audio player for using with Rockbox, so I was expecting just suggestions about a possible recorder/audio player and not a video player. I may have been unfriendly, sorry.

Seriously, if you want exclusive control of this, rename it to "casainhoPlayerV1", but if you're going to treat it like a community project, remember that "What I want it to be" isn't always what's right for the community.
I do not want exclusive control, I just defined what I wanted AND believe as realistic objectives, possible to do. I want to work with others that also believe, desire, the same idea. Who do not share the same beliefs and have others, can always start working on that others, I assume there is space, freedom for do that.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 21, 2008, 04:16:27 PM
Rockbox already has many features that make use of a color screen. Why exclude them just because *you* don't want a color screen. Other than a slight increase in cost, what harm is there in a color screen? I don't see a color screen being "unrealistic."
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 04:39:12 PM

Rockbox already has many features that make use of a color screen. Why exclude them just because *you* don't want a color screen. Other than a slight increase in cost, what harm is there in a color screen? I don't see a color screen being "unrealistic."

Please read the wiki pages about the project. And as I said before, actual PrototypeB will use OLED 18 bit color.

The features that RB have, will not modeled the RockboxPlayer, just It objectives - and using a color or a no color screen, are not in the objectives.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: AlexP on February 21, 2008, 05:08:26 PM
This is the thing though - all throughout you are saying it WILL have this, it WON'T do this, this is NOT in the objectives.  These are all definites, so what is the point in discussion?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 05:18:06 PM

This is the thing though - all throughout you are saying it WILL have this, it WON'T do this, this is NOT in the objectives.  These are all definites, so what is the point in discussion?

I will not discuss nothing with you since you are not in the project. About screen, I will discuss It with who will implement that on hardware. There are registered opinions about screen, we will have them in account when deciding about it - also the same for the other things.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 21, 2008, 05:43:54 PM
Maybe you should rename this, and list who is in the project. I thought the idea was to design this so that other people interested in it could also purchase the player. Doesn't that mean that the people whose money it would be should have some say?

Where is the list of who is "in the project" so the rest of us can know that you've decided we need to shut up?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Davide-NYC on February 21, 2008, 05:57:27 PM
People, relax.  We are arguing semantics.

The point of contention (that sparked this little flame) was the color screen issue. Since the screen on the prototype will be color, I presume there is no longer an issue.   ;D

I in no way want to discourage this project.  If this project actually happens, with high end audio input capabilities, I will certainly buy one (cost permitting).

Smile on folks, Rockbox is amazing.   :)

D.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 21, 2008, 05:59:16 PM
I want everyone to stop right now, and define clearly who this project is, who is allowed to speak, and what the "unchangeable" goals are, so that nobody wastes any more time thinking it's a community project and then gets told they're not allowed to speak or attempt to contribute.

Who is allowed to speak? What can we not make suggestions about improving because of "objectives"?
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 06:07:14 PM
I want everyone to stop right now, and define clearly who this project is, who is allowed to speak, and what the "unchangeable" goals are, so that nobody wastes any more time thinking it's a community project and then gets told they're not allowed to speak or attempt to contribute.

Who is allowed to speak? What can we not make suggestions about improving because of "objectives"?
There is a list of people in the main project page, under title: People that are interested and can help.

And everyone can speak, however I personally don't have infinite time to read all, instead I prefer to focus on whats I think is important, so I will ignore some talks that I think that are not important.

And I think the things here are like what RB developers usually say to people that are just chatting and asking: "Ports are made by people who want to port, they are not done on request." --> here the same, hardware is made and decided by who do it, not on request. So It's a community project - IMO, the community is who make, work and will decided.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 21, 2008, 06:10:37 PM
But anyone can add themselves to that list.

There's a major difference here: With Rockbox, we don't need to sell the project to other people. With your hardware, you need to make a certain number before it's cheap enough to be reasonable to manufacture. This means you must take an interest in what's most likely to make more people willing to buy one.

You alone do not get to decide what is or isn't important. If you do, you need to say clearly "This is my project, I will make all final decisions." Otherwise you're going to make other people waste THEIR time, because they don't know that you value your own time more than theirs, and don't care about their interests.

Unless the ONLY people spending money will be the designers, the community is "those who will buy" not "those who will work."
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: AlexP on February 21, 2008, 06:14:58 PM

I will not discuss nothing with you since you are not in the project. About screen, I will discuss It with who will implement that on hardware. There are registered opinions about screen, we will have them in account when deciding about it - also the same for the other things.


This is unnecessarily rude in my opinion, and furthermore I take it then that if I edit that wiki page and add myself to the list I can talk?!

You really need to look up community in a dictionary.  Either you want opinions or you don't.  It doesn't seem like you do.  That is fine, but in that case this is NOT a rockbox player, it is a casainho player, and you should designate it as such.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 21, 2008, 06:21:04 PM
And as a note, Rockbox still accepts feature requests. And we still work on things *we* don't need, because it would benefit other people. And we even actually *justify* why we reject things. By explaining what it would harm to do it that way, and why we think it's not beneficial to the project to accept that feature request.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 06:32:50 PM

So if I add myself to the list I can talk!

You really need to look up community in a dictionary.  Either you want opinions or you don't.  It doesn't seem like you do.  That is fine, but in that case this is NOT a rockbox player, it is a casainho player, and you should designate it as such.

I do want opinions as I did registered all opinions on the wiki page:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerWishlist

But some opinions looks like to me as requests, and as a new port of RB, Ports are made by people who want to port, they are not done on request.".


And as a note, Rockbox still accepts feature requests. And we still work on things *we* don't need, because it would benefit other people. And we even actually *justify* why we reject things. By explaining what it would harm to do it that way, and why we think it's not beneficial to the project to accept that feature request.

The same *justify* why we reject things, you can read at the page for the RockboxPlayerV1. I don't do audio records but I was interested in listening people about that, for example.

And please, stop with this, you people looks like arrived now to the project! There was a lot of work done already by a few people - you just don't know that, you were not here on that time.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: AlexP on February 21, 2008, 06:35:59 PM
I have been here all along, and involved with rockbox for a lot longer than you have.  I just haven't posted on this particular project before now.  You may remember some conversations in IRC when I amongst others attempted to explain to you how rockbox works now, to help you with this design?

As a question, what have YOU actually done for this other than say what you want for the specs?  It looks very much like you want to specify the DAP you want then let others do the work.

Anyway, whatever.  You go ahead, and I hope you manage to persuade the skilled people you need to do your design for you.  Good luck.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Llorean on February 21, 2008, 06:44:44 PM
I've been with Rockbox for a very long time. I've been watching your  thread here, but you seem to think that because I haven't spoken, I'm new to having interest. So far, I've had nothing that needed said, because someone else has said it first.

Ports to hardware are not done by request, because people who do not have the hardware can't work on it.

You still haven't addressed the important question: Do you actually want other people to spend money on this.

I'm going to say right now: You need to very, very clearly codify
1) What things you yourself have defined unwilling to change.
2) What people are allowed to comment on.
3) What makes someone "interested enough to listen to."

At the moment, I'm tempted to close this thread until you're willing to clearly define what this project is, and why other people cannot contribute ideas.

So far, you haven't made hardware. You've done very little real work on this beyond planning. And yet you're unwilling to let other people contribute to the design, because they haven't planned as much as you.

New Ports of the SOFTWARE don't happen for new hardware, because if bob tells me he wants me to work on the Vision M, I have to spend $300 to work on it.

New Hardware designs have never happened before, but if I'm going to say "I'm willing to bay $200 for a Rockbox player", I have to know it has a color screen. You don't seem to understand that it's an ENTIRELY different situation.

If you're unwilling to have useful discourse, I'm done with this thread. In the past, you've shown an unwillingness to follow forum guidelines, by starting multiple threads. Now you're showing an unwillingness to actually discuss things, simply telling long standing members of the community to go away because you will not listen to them.

Start acting like a reasonable human being, and explaining WHY an idea isn't worth including in the player, and decide whether this is YOUR project, or a ROCKBOX player with hardware to be defined by what the Rockbox community is most willing to spend money on.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 21, 2008, 07:12:46 PM
I'm going to say right now: You need to very, very clearly codify
1) What thinks you yourself have defined unwilling to change.
2) What people are allowed to comment on.
3) What makes someone "interested enough to listen to."
1 - Good quality hardware audio player and recorder - no video player or game console;
2 - Everyone.
3 - Depends on what task I am focus on that time.

explaining WHY an idea isn't worth including in the player
I did, again, you can read on RockboxPlayerV1.

decide whether this is YOUR project, or a ROCKBOX player with hardware to be defined by what the Rockbox community is most willing to spend money on.
RockboxPlayer will be defined by people that identifies with the idea of Good quality hardware audio player and recorder - no video player or game console; - It will not be defined by a community is most willing to spend money on! - that kind of community have already a lot of options in market for that!! I would say that all players in the market are targeted for that kind of community.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: cool_walking_ on February 21, 2008, 08:48:46 PM
The only reason I could find on RockboxPlayerV1 was "Fast display, good for peakmeters - for recording I assume".  mborus also gave the reason of power usage.

I don't know about the speed of colour displays, but it seems plenty fast on my iPod.  If those are the only reasons against a colour display, I personally think the positives greatly outweigh the negatives.

I wouldn't have anything to do with the design, since I have no knowledge of that.  I would be willing to learn (but I don't really know where to start... any links?) but I would probably slow you down.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 22, 2008, 03:40:00 AM
I wouldn't have anything to do with the design, since I have no knowledge of that.  I would be willing to learn (but I don't really know where to start... any links?) but I would probably slow you down.
Start by reading all wiki pages about the project. I think we will shift back to the RockboxPlayerPrototype:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: Bagder on February 22, 2008, 06:22:08 AM
Allow me to also add some fluff to this pie-throwing.

I haven't added myself to this project because I don't want to build my own player. I don't believe in that concept. But if a company/someone would start making them in a nice package, I certainly would be lining up to get one. Of course I would then only be interested in such a player if it has a color screen of a suitable size and while Rockbox is about audio it plays video perfectly fine on most targets and I see absolutely no reason to build a new player in 2008 that can't play video - I think the album art fan crowd will also agree that color screens are nice. Especially not when it has an 180MHz ARM9 core.

I've contributed to Rockbox for more than six years and I've responded in this thread and on IRC quite a lot of times. But again, I'm not added on the wiki page for the rockboxplayer.

I do realize that there needs to be someone who gets the final say and of course everyone can build their own player but we need to remember that rejecting ideas and suggestions will be taken hard if not motivated properly and "you're not in the team" is not a good reason.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 22, 2008, 08:50:25 AM

I see absolutely no reason to build a new player in 2008 that can't play video

Just because we are in 2008 does not mean we can't build a player dedicated to audio!

The hardware will be tailored for It's objectives, Good quality hardware audio player and recorder - no video player or game console; --> which does not mean video or games happen in software, however, hardware will not be tailored for that! - maybe I did not wrote very well, video or games can happen, however, for example, buttons will be tailored for an audio player and not for a game console.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: cool_walking_ on February 23, 2008, 10:23:56 PM


I wouldn't have anything to do with the design, since I have no knowledge of that.  I would be willing to learn (but I don't really know where to start... any links?) but I would probably slow you down.

Start by reading all wiki pages about the project. I think we will shift back to the RockboxPlayerPrototype:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype
Yeah I'd been reading those.  I mean I don't know anything about this hardware stuff.  I used a soldering iron once in my life for half an hour 12-13 years ago.

I started reading Electronics and Practical_Electronics on Wikibooks.  With the former I'm pretty much forgetting what I read 5 minutes later.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 24, 2008, 04:44:33 AM



I wouldn't have anything to do with the design, since I have no knowledge of that.  I would be willing to learn (but I don't really know where to start... any links?) but I would probably slow you down.

Start by reading all wiki pages about the project. I think we will shift back to the RockboxPlayerPrototype:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxPlayerPrototype
Yeah I'd been reading those.  I mean I don't know anything about this hardware stuff.  I used a soldering iron once in my life for half an hour 12-13 years ago.

I started reading Electronics and Practical_Electronics on Wikibooks.  With the former I'm pretty much forgetting what I read 5 minutes later.

But can you hack RB code? :-) - Nor you and much people want, know to solder. We will buy a development board and I will make a few necessary boards just for developers, fro this prototype. Next, the idea is to have some company to assembly and sell to us that hardware :-)
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: cool_walking_ on February 24, 2008, 07:30:08 PM
Quote
But can you hack RB code? :-)
Most probably not.  I have written simple plugins (surely written very stupidly and hence never released), but I've never written anything low level like a driver, and I haven't really looked at the core code.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on February 25, 2008, 03:45:57 AM

Quote
But can you hack RB code? :-)
Most probably not.  I have written simple plugins (surely written very stupidly and hence never released), but I've never written anything low level like a driver, and I haven't really looked at the core code.

So It's an opportunity to discover, to learn :-) - also I will also learn :-) - I can code drivers but I will learn a lot looking at high level code :-)
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: JonathanHull on February 25, 2008, 02:02:46 PM
Well I WAS interested in this project till casainho showed his inner dictator qualities. So forget this.
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: allele on May 06, 2008, 01:30:22 PM
any estimations on the dimensions of the new player?  I know the hardware is still being worked on, so nothing is definite, just seeing if anyone has any idea
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: notlistening on August 21, 2008, 05:47:32 PM
Hi Guys,


Been lurking around the rockbox project for about three years now. Looking to dedicate my time to developing the new hardware/software for this project.

For some reason my e-mail on yahoo does not like the rockbox forums or the Wiki so I have added my details here please add me on MSN to chat directly.

I lost about 80% of my sight in 2005 but have a degree in computing for Real time Systems. I have worked on Linux driver development under embedded systems, VHDL and FPGA, c programming, embedded systems.

I have very little to do commitment wise, using But porting the SAPI engine for speech to Linux you know things to occupy my time.

If someone can contact me and get me working on a specific area I would be grateful. thomaslloyd82 at hotmail.com

Lastly my wishlist.

I think that flash players have great advantages over hard disks. My main concern is battery power and the flash based players far out do the drive based players. I am using a Sansa E280 with 8GB expanded memory. This gives me a 16 GB player. As i am not really too clued up on the hardware plans for this project this maybe a silly suggestion. My idead would be support multiple flash cards either the same format or differing formats giving expandability up to roughly 30GB with internal and two + external cards similar to the 30 GB hard drive cowon X5 models. The micro SDHC are very small and could be intergrated into a small player. Possibly even in parallel as you only need access to one card at a time needing less controller hardware. The next advantage is they are bump proof and they do not cause noise when recording through the mic and or when listening to music. In an ideal world you would have a HDD and flash versions.

That would meet peoples need in different ways both in size and functionality.

Battery easily replaceable ion lithium as posted before, maybe even an existing product that will have an extended shelf life like the Nintendo DS for example or mobile phone.

A mini usb connector is a must, customised cables / connectors are a nightmare. Every one has a mini usb cable somewhere, car adapters are easy to come by, my pda has a wall charger that will run anything like my zen stone which is great no need for a computer or multiple chargers.

Interface depends on the design of the player but I have to say the X5 was good, the Sansa is pretty useless but the winner is the zen stone as it is durable, simple you could modify to be used in any direction horizontal vertical upsidedown. I like the concept of the scroll wheel but find them in precise and hard to use. The durability of the players control is of great importance as they will wear out before the battery does. The tactile bump on the zen is all a vision impaired user requires.  Another option on an old phone that i found to be the most usable interface was a scroll wheel on my Sony P800. It had 5 way functionality as was on the side toward the top of the phone and required nothing else to use the devide. It supported up and down scross push away pull towards and push in to click. The position was comfortable to use for extended periods and as a bonus you could play doom on it ok :P

Small note on headphone jacks. I have an X5 where the headphone jack was damaged/wore out so a good choice of jack even an external one on a lead would extend the longevity of that component. The zen also has a nice feature to skip albumin with a slide switch but has no screen as it is only 1GB.

The ability to completely switch off the screen both hardware and software to save battery power. No need for vision impaired users.

Software - I want my cake and to eat it ;)

For vision impaired users a sound to indicate start up would be great.

A feature that would announce the song that is playing next before the track starts, helps us learn the names using the voice clip.

An accessible database, to provide an alternative database version that basically takes the database structure/information and creates an empty directory tree of the years artist albumns using the PC and then uses a combination of playlists and symbolic links (saving duplication)to voice clips and music files to allow vision impaired users to utilise the database feature.

Phew, Daisy a tool to convert the files to mp4 and create a cue file based on the XML on the book Cd's.

A tool to allow configuration of a player on the PC.

Notlistening  - to anything ATM because no rockbox hardware is available  ;D
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: casainho on August 22, 2008, 04:26:03 AM
Hello notlistening :-)

I am right now trying to build one bootstrap for Olimex dev. board with ARM9. My actual task is to prepare and test the bootstrap with the already tested flash led code. In the end, the flash led code will be changed by the Rockbox bootloader. Finally, Rockbox bootloader will read from one SD card FAT32 filesystem, the Rockbox firmware + data audio files.

About flash memory, I agree with you, for example, I had been hacking in Asus netbook eee pc 701 in past months and now I am with other one, the Acer aspire one -- both don't have HD, just flash drives :-)

Well, we need a lot of help to make this idea grow, of one Open hardware/firmware audio recorder/player.

I did add you to msn - my e-mail, msn, gtalk: casainho at_gmail.com
Title: Re: RockboxPlayerV1 - Free/Open hardware audio player for Rockbox
Post by: notlistening on October 03, 2008, 04:49:00 AM
Hi All,

To all those people from before that have been put off helping out on this project please reconsider. I have now started helping, have a barebones development board and have been dedicating significant amounts of time to this project.

I am learning from a very basic level in a wide variety of areas and in all honesty we have a lot of gaps in our skill sets.  I understand that to begin with we are trying to ease the prototyping as much as possible and that has lead to some decisions about hardware, ie the screen. From a base we can implement a better LCD but at the moment not knowing how to do it for the first time we want it to be a little bit less stressful.

The hardware used will be be open to debate and the hardware manufacture will have significant sway in the end. Discussion and ideas are very welcome as we do not have all the answers. What works for me doesn't work for everyone, but more choice is better than none.

If we get a player developed then it paves the way in the future for rapid development as hardware evolves. So please do not get disheartened any help is good help.

If there is anyone with experience of ARM 9 development from scratch that might be able to anwer a few questions can you PM me.

Also if people are interested in learning up to what I know i can give some useful pointers :).

The most important thing that will come out of this project is a ARM 9 based rockbox port that can be implemented with differing hardware, screens, buttons, scrolly things, memory interfaces etc etc.

Tom