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Rockbox General => Rockbox General Discussion => Topic started by: wesmo on September 04, 2007, 10:27:49 PM

Title: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: wesmo on September 04, 2007, 10:27:49 PM
Hi,

Apparently according to macrumors.com and thinksecret.com, new ipods come out tomorrow (Sep 5, 10 AM). We should try and capitalize on all the Apple marketing who-ha by porting them to rockbox asap. To do so though, we would probably need the following:

1 -  Confirming specifications and features of the device and seeing if a new port is feasible/possible

Probably requires a dev or someone close to a dev to purchase a new ipod or two as soon as it comes out. Then analyse it very quickly. Or we can wait for the other gadget blogs and forums to do all the feature research for us (prob within a week or two)

2 - If feasible, purchase new ipods for devs - a pledge drive could be started

This would require devs to be prepared to work on the new ports and the number of new ipods necessary to be agreed upon - We could pimp the pledge drive through all the linux news channels and slashdot

3 - Follow the steps for porting - but attract new devs to accelerate the port

Through all the aforementioned news coverage, the pledge drive would definitely reach interested devs

4 - Follow up

If the pledge and port is succesful - repeat same model for new rockbox targets :)

Also, in the case of no rockbox devs being prepared to work on it, we can donate the new ipods raised from the pledge to ipodlinux.

Pros:

1 - Rockbox piggybacks on the new ipod marketing - reaches much more people quicker
2 - Rockbox works on a new target
3 - Rockbox community knows they can raise funds for future ports using the same model
4 - Rockbox gets more devs and more users

Cons:

1 - The new ipods may be too much of a resource commitment when we could be working on  bugfixing current targets
2 - The new ipods may have features which exceed rockbox's current features in certain aspects
3 - The new ipods are a bloody expensive entry point for anyone that wants to get Rockbox
4 - The new ipods may not even come out :) (perhaps we should consider this model for the new Creative Zen or the zune (due to the recent price reduction - now only $199 US according to engadget.com)

This is just a suggestion to try and get the ball rolling. Criticism is welcome :) It'd be nice to know what the devs & community think about it.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Llorean on September 04, 2007, 10:32:19 PM
1) This is not an installation question.
2) New ports happen by those owning the new players and really interested in them, it takes a LOT of time and a LOT of effort, and a lot of devs are more concerned with making Rockbox work well where it already is. It's not going to happen quickly no matter how much you want it to.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: wesmo on September 04, 2007, 10:33:13 PM
ahh crap wrong forum - can u shift it to general?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: wesmo on September 04, 2007, 10:38:35 PM
Llorean: thanks for shifting the thread - by starting something like this, I didn't necessarily mean in the blink of an eye a rockbox port will be created. But rather I hope it would generate more interest in rockbox
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 05, 2007, 01:35:48 AM
We're pretty much fine with the level of interest we have already.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Llorean on September 05, 2007, 01:38:23 AM
Meaning "more interest is good, but promotion or wild attempts to gain interest aren't necessary"
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: linuxstb on September 05, 2007, 01:56:48 AM
It's also worth adding that any new ipods will almost certainly be protected from running third-party code in the same way (or possibly even more securely) than the 2nd gen Nano.

So any port would require cracking that encryption, or finding exploits - something that no-one (to my  knowledge) has done so far for the 2nd gen Nano.

And that's before any work is done to reverse-engineer the brand-new and undocumented hardware...
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: psycho_maniac on September 05, 2007, 02:12:36 AM

It's also worth adding that any new ipods will almost certainly be protected from running third-party code in the same way (or possibly even more securely) than the 2nd gen Nano.

So any port would require cracking that encryption, or finding exploits - something that no-one (to my  knowledge) has done so far for the 2nd gen Nano.

And that's before any work is done to reverse-engineer the brand-new and undocumented hardware...

is this the same with the ipod or was it just the new hd that they used for the 80gb version?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: linuxstb on September 05, 2007, 02:27:30 AM

is this the same with the ipod or was it just the new hd that they used for the 80gb version?


I assume by "ipod" you mean the 80GB ipod video?  If so, then yes, it was just the weird firmware in the 80GB hard disk used by Apple which caused Rockbox problems.  Everything else was identical to all the other ipod videos.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Bagder on September 05, 2007, 02:56:33 AM
To help upcoming ports to happen to new players, feel free to buy lots of units and hand them out to interested developers.

Or just donate lots of money to the Rockbox fund so that we can buy units to willing developers.

(Although of course nothing of this guarantees a port to actually happen.)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Yotto on September 05, 2007, 04:56:15 AM
Don't forget to buy them for Rockbox Artists too so they'll make you WPSs.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Llorean on September 05, 2007, 01:18:29 PM
And clearly at least one should be sent to me so that I can be familiar with the ins and outs to provide better support! ;)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 05, 2007, 01:23:32 PM
Engadget has an article up about the 3rd Gen nano and the 6th Gen iPod; here's the URL:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/apple-announces-new-ipod-nano/

The new nano looks like a squared-off iPod video to me. But it also boasts a QVGA LCD with an extremely high pixel density. Also, it seems that there will be 4GB and 8GB models available "by this weekend", as per the article.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: dcr693 on September 05, 2007, 01:47:51 PM
I for one hope that Rockbox doesn't work on the 3Gen nano, only because I just got a Sansa E series because Rockbox won't work on the 2Gen nano. :) But seriously, the new nano looks a great platform if only it could be hacked! If anyone wants to send me one, I'd be glad to design lots of WPSes.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Llorean on September 05, 2007, 01:58:47 PM
I hate to say it, but since the new iPod Nano is a QVGA screen, all iPod Video themes will already be the appropriate dimensions for it. :-P
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: polygonal on September 05, 2007, 02:00:20 PM
The 160GB harddrive makes me sleepless...  ;P
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 05, 2007, 02:18:14 PM
I wouldn't mind buying a 6th gen iPod to promptly rip open and scan the PCB of it within hours of walking out of the store.  ;)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Walrus on September 05, 2007, 02:48:38 PM
If the 160 GB "Ipod Classic" has basically the same design as the 5.5 model and runs Rockbox...I'm so screwed.  ;D


If only Apple would support .ogg, life would be so much simpler.  I really can't stand them, but who else is bothering to compete with them anymore?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 05, 2007, 02:53:33 PM

If only Apple would support .ogg, life would be so much simpler.


I am convinced that Steve Jobs is Nicollò Machiavelli in a turtleneck. :P
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Chronon on September 05, 2007, 03:03:39 PM

I wouldn't mind buying a 6th gen iPod to promptly rip open and scan the PCB of it within hours of walking out of the store.  ;)


You should ask if you can try out a scanner.  Then rip it open then and there!   ;D
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: magnumforce2006 on September 05, 2007, 05:51:30 PM
Hooooo baby, can't wait for the 160 gig to get a rockbox port  ;D
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: evilnick on September 05, 2007, 06:16:05 PM
If the 160GB iPod classic gets a rockbox port (notice that I'm not begging for this to happen soon, merely wanting it with all my heart, soul and all) then I might have to re-evaluate my current no-way-no-how stance on iPods!

Improved battery life, massive storage capacity and THE best firmware in existence = the win.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: wesmo on September 05, 2007, 06:28:21 PM
Well does anyone want to get start pledging some money so that one of the devs can "promptly rip open and scan the PCB of it within hours of walking out of the store"?

According to engadget, the new ipods should hit stores this weekend.

Ipod classic 80g - $249 US
nano 4g             - $149 US

I'll be willing to pledge $15 AU (around $12 US) iff we get enough for either of these targets..
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Walrus on September 05, 2007, 07:37:53 PM
I'd be shocked if the 80 gig 'classic' was any different than the current 5.5 80 gig.  It's obviously not on anyone's priority list with the development of the touchscreen stuff, so I'm just not picturing anyone at Apple devoting a lot of time to changing it...seems more like an image and price rebranding rather than a significantly different product.

I'm just curious if the 160 gig will have the same basic hardware as what is already known, or if it will pose a similar problem to what kept the 80 gig working with rockbox for so long.  
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scorche on September 05, 2007, 07:39:40 PM

I'd be shocked if the 80 gig 'classic' was any different than the current 5.5 80 gig.  It's obviously not on anyone's priority list with the development of the touchscreen stuff, so I'm just not picturing anyone at Apple devoting a lot of time to changing it...seems more like an image and price rebranding rather than a significantly different product.

I'm just curious if the 160 gig will have the same basic hardware as what is already known, or if it will pose a similar problem to what kept the 80 gig working with rockbox for so long.  


Well, I very much doubt they are still using PP chips, so I am sure it is quite different.  Speculating about this is offtopic and useless though.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: arsenal on September 05, 2007, 10:15:12 PM
I have Rockbox on my 1st Gen 4GB Ipod Nano and on another Ipod Mini and I LOVE it.  So, that being said, I would totally throw down $50 US on getting a nano...  longer battery life and double the storage - W00t!
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 05, 2007, 11:56:20 PM

You should ask if you can try out a scanner.  Then rip it open then and there!   ;D


Oh man, those Apple Store employees would scream in agony if I did that! ;D

/me uses Angry Voice "I AM LRRR OF THE PLANET ROCKBOXIA! TREMBLE IN FEAR AS I PORT ROCKBOX TO YOUR PUNY NEW IPODS!! BWA HA HA HAAA!!"
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: gnu on September 06, 2007, 05:32:21 AM
LOL...
But this is all just speculating...
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scorche on September 06, 2007, 05:36:06 AM

Speculating about this is offtopic and useless though.


 ;)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: JdGordon on September 06, 2007, 05:43:06 AM

Well does anyone want to get start pledging some money so that one of the devs can "promptly rip open and scan the PCB of it within hours of walking out of the store"?

According to engadget, the new ipods should hit stores this weekend.

Ipod classic 80g - $249 US
nano 4g             - $149 US

I'll be willing to pledge $15 AU (around $12 US) iff we get enough for either of these targets..


shotgun being the lucky dev who gets it :D
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: countach on September 06, 2007, 10:23:32 AM
I hope the arrival of new iPods wont disturb the focus in enhancing the battery duration in the 5.5 80Gb...  ::)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: AlexP on September 06, 2007, 10:35:41 AM
There is no project focus on anything particularly, developers do what they want to do.  Besides, the new iPods are likely to be a nightmare if not impossible to port - the combination of new undocumented hardware, and I can't imagine the encryption is easier than the current Nano 2G which no-one has yet cracked....
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 06, 2007, 10:41:23 AM
I have this sinking feeling that the hardware inside might be similar to what's in the nano, given Apple's track record and their move away from PortalPlayer.

Then again, you're right, BigBambi. It may be a brand new chipset inside, quite possibly something with no public documentation. I guess the only way to find is for a few brave souls to step forward, buy a few new iPods, and crack them open to get a good look at the innards...
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: AlexP on September 06, 2007, 10:42:43 AM

I have this sinking feeling that the hardware inside might be similar to what's in the nano, given Apple's track record and their move away from PortalPlayer.


That's what I meant.  The nano 2G is new (to us) and undocumented (publicly).
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: countach on September 06, 2007, 10:43:32 AM
I know the 'focusless' of the project, I was only wondering about a 5.5 developer who suddenly upgrades his rig...  :)


And about the whole thing... Has anybody made contact with apple asking for documentation? Despite the iTunes drm stuff, the Rockbox existence maybe will raise the iPod sales, so there would be no harm at all to apple.


Myself, I bough the iPod only because Rockbox. Period.


Edit: Typos
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: AlexP on September 06, 2007, 10:47:06 AM
We have relativly few iPod developers at all, and even fewer 5.5G ones.  Besides the battery live issue is not just a 5.5G one, it affects all players that use the same chipset.

For current iPods we would need documentation from PortalPlayer, which would mean a wacking great NDA.  For newer iPods (probably, certainly the Nano 2G) it means documentation from Samsung, which means a wacking great NDA....

Bottom line, we will have to live without documentation.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 06, 2007, 10:54:53 AM
I'm one of the very few 5.5G users here that has even a shred of programming experience. I downloaded the source for Rockbox for the very purpose of learning how a full-fledged system like this works.

I would love to help resolve the battery life issue with the 5.5G iPods, but until I learn some more C (and learn embedded systems programming!), the best I can do is talk with everyone here and see if maybe our combined knowledge can find a solution to the problem.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: countach on September 06, 2007, 11:03:40 AM
So, things like this:

http://www.warthman.com/projects-portalplayer-pp5001-ds.htm

...are impossible to get, even paying?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 06, 2007, 11:11:57 AM
What BigBambi was explaining earlier is that many of these companies will sign their documentation over to you, but there's always going be catches like:

1) "I agree that I will not share this documentation with anyone, nor will I make it available online, blah-de-blah..."
2) "I must agree that these data sheets can be revoked from me at any time,"
3) "I must agree that these documents will not be used for illicit activities. (note: which they will think Rockbox is)"

That's just the start of it. Like BigBambi said: wacking great NDA...
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: AlexP on September 06, 2007, 11:57:33 AM
You can get them, but you must agree to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement, which means not sharing them with anyone else, disclosing what is in them etc.  This usually (with rare exceptions) means not publishing open source code based on them.

Believe me, if we could get the documentation (and legally use it) we would love it.  It isn't just that we haven't thought of it.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Bugsy on September 06, 2007, 01:22:58 PM


You should ask if you can try out a scanner.  Then rip it open then and there!  


Oh man, those Apple Store employees would scream in agony if I did that! ;D

/me uses Angry Voice "I AM LRRR OF THE PLANET ROCKBOXIA! TREMBLE IN FEAR AS I PORT ROCKBOX TO YOUR PUNY NEW IPODS!! BWA HA HA HAAA!!"


Hahahahahahahahaha.  :D

I just fell out of my chair because of this one.

You are now quoted on facebook.

I was already planning to buy the 80gb next week anyways, so cheers to Apple for this one.

But without Rockbox, the 160gb is useless. So i'm in a pickle.

Any estimates on how much time it takes to learn whatever you need to program the ipod for rockbox?  :P
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 06, 2007, 01:24:56 PM
When we're flying blind like we are with the nano, let's just say... "Only time can tell."

We never have an estimate as to when a port will be done. It's ready when it's ready, and that's also why there's no such thing as release dates in the open source community.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: AlexP on September 06, 2007, 01:26:10 PM
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NewPort

You will also probably be working on hardware without datasheets and very strong encryption.
Title: Re: new ipods - UI concerns
Post by: peterw on September 06, 2007, 03:53:01 PM
If we're lucky, Walrus is right and the iPod Classic is basically a 5.5g. If so, the Classic 80 and 160 shouldn't be too hard to support (says a guy who's barely compiled Rockbox source).

But the iPod Touch? The Rockbox code is largely driven by hardware button & switch events. The iPod Touch has what, one button (home) and one switch (hold)? Making Rockbox work on the iPod Touch would mean dealing with some serious user input issues: interpreting screen input, and possibly drawing controls on-screen. Even if you put aside the possibility any effort required to get code to run on the iPod Touch, the UI issues could be huge. Easiest might be claiming some portion of the screen for permanent user input control space. But would users be happy with a portion of the screen permanently dedicated to user input?

I hope the Classics are easy to support. I don't like the wheel much, but there's a lot to recommend the larger iPods for large music collections (which is why I've got a 5.5g 80gb). With all my decent quality MP3s and all of English Wikipedia on my iPod (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/4755), I can't imagine using a DAP with only 16gb.

Hopefully the Classics' arrival will mean good prices on the 5.5g Videos soon...

-Peter
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: gnychis on September 06, 2007, 07:24:59 PM
heres an interesting proposal, ripping the hard drive out of the 160gb and dropping it in the 5.5G 80gb body.  Maybe this is possible.  If you check the sizes of the 6G and 5.5G 80 and 160 ipods, the 6th gen is .02mm thinner... this is a very small difference.

It seems as though Toshiba just announced a mini 160gb drive... that many are *speculating* may be the drive in the 6th gens:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/06/toshiba-announces-ipod-classic-sized-80gb-and-160gb-1-8-inch-dis/

So to avoid needing to crack the 6 gen just to get the 160gb, maybe it could be possible for us to drop a new drive in.

- George
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 07, 2007, 01:24:46 AM

I was already planning to buy the 80gb next week anyways, so cheers to Apple for this one.

But without Rockbox, the 160gb is useless. So i'm in a pickle.


Just as an aside, I *really* believe that you won't be able to run rockbox on EITHER of the new classics. Doesn't matter what drive size you buy.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: gnychis on September 07, 2007, 10:17:09 AM
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPod/iPod-Classic

the insides
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 07, 2007, 10:20:10 AM
These pics, while not being the best quality confirm it. The iPod classic is NOT portalplayer based - and therefore no existing Rockbox build will work on them.

And on the same site is a new 3G nano - also dismantled, and ALSO not portalplayer.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 07, 2007, 10:24:55 AM
iFixit's guide is quite informative about the majority of the hardware components, at the very least. But yes, these look like the very same Samsung SOC chip Apple used in the nano 2G.

Translation: Brand spanking new port, and lots of headaches.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: dcr693 on September 07, 2007, 11:11:41 AM

iFixit's guide is quite informative about the majority of the hardware components, at the very least. But yes, these look like the very same Samsung SOC chip Apple used in the nano 2G.

Translation: Brand spanking new port, and lots of headaches.
This is the very reason I gave my 2G nano to my brother and why, when my 1G nano failed I opted to buy a Sansa E200 series. Sorry Apple. I love your products, but I NEED Rockbox.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 07, 2007, 11:16:27 AM
This is the very reason I feel bad for my brother being stuck with a nano 2G. He wanted to offer it to the devs for research, but doesn't have an alternate DAP. Since he wants something Rockboxable, it's settled.

I'm getting him a Sansa e280 for Xmas then.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: countach on September 07, 2007, 11:19:05 AM
wow, I'm happy i just bought one of the lasts 5.5 gen 80Gb...

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 07, 2007, 04:23:27 PM
Nooo :( That's such a pity it's not ready for rockbox. 160GB is sooo nice but I just can't see myself buying it without rockbox. Looks like I'll be waiting another few years to upgrade from my H140.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scrollop on September 08, 2007, 05:04:20 AM
Hello,
 found this on the head-fi forums. A smart bunny opened up a new ipod classic to determine if the layout/DAC is the same as the 5.5g.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259258

 Â Hope this helps any devs who might be willing to port rockbox to the new ipods. He seems to know what he's talking about as it's all gibberish to me.

edit: there's also a diagnostic mode. Hackable?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipodlounger/sets/72157601903055437/
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: polygonal on September 08, 2007, 08:21:23 AM

edit: there's also a diagnostic mode. Hackable?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipodlounger/sets/72157601903055437/


Hmmm, one of those screens shows current temperature... Can ipod detect current temperature? That's kinda cool ;)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: gnychis on September 08, 2007, 10:02:17 AM

edit: there's also a diagnostic mode. Hackable?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipodlounger/sets/72157601903055437/


that's pretty cool, thanks for linking that
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: saratoga on September 08, 2007, 11:38:18 AM

Hello,
 found this on the head-fi forums. A smart bunny opened up a new ipod classic to determine if the layout/DAC is the same as the 5.5g.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259258

  Hope this helps any devs who might be willing to port rockbox to the new ipods. He seems to know what he's talking about as it's all gibberish to me.


No it is pretty much just all nonsense.  Such is the way of the head-fi poster.


edit: there's also a diagnostic mode. Hackable?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipodlounger/sets/72157601903055437/


Its just an information screen.  Its hackable in the sense that the rest of the firmware is hackable.  
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: gnychis on September 08, 2007, 02:29:57 PM


Hello,
 found this on the head-fi forums. A smart bunny opened up a new ipod classic to determine if the layout/DAC is the same as the 5.5g.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259258

  Hope this helps any devs who might be willing to port rockbox to the new ipods. He seems to know what he's talking about as it's all gibberish to me.


No it is pretty much just all nonsense.  Such is the way of the head-fi poster.



What part of it do you consider nonsense?  It's not helpful to anyone looking to create a rockbox port, I agree... but what is your reasoning behind calling it nonsense?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: saratoga on September 08, 2007, 03:56:28 PM


What part of it do you consider nonsense?  


All of it, aside from the chip label number.


It's not helpful to anyone looking to create a rockbox port, I agree... but what is your reasoning behind calling it nonsense?


Its not helpful to anyone ever.  Its just a lot of self important speculation dressed up with big words.  Theres no information in there whatsoever.  
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: gnychis on September 08, 2007, 04:14:43 PM
i don't even see any big words involved.  DAC? CODEC? caps? voltage? these are big words?

I'm just saying, theres no need to call it nonsense.  Someone opened it up, and reported what they saw.  It's more than us "guessing" what's underneath the box.  We aren't discussing the sound quality, we're discussing the hardware.  The information is not useful to rockbox, but it's useful to others.  You can call it non-helpful, but to call it nonsense is dumb.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: mschneider on September 08, 2007, 05:00:00 PM

 ...but to call it nonsense is dumb.


And arguing over whether or not the word choice for somebody's opinoin of a post is right or wrong isnt when the purpose of this thread was to attempt to get an effort started for those players?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Llorean on September 08, 2007, 05:35:28 PM
There's basically two ways to measure output: Objectively and Subjectively.

Objectively, you would take a known pattern, and compare it with the output, such as an RMAA test, so you can see what is happening.

Subjectively you would simply do a double blind test comparing it to another source you subjectively considered 'good'.

He really hasn't showed any results of either sort of test, and the only test that really matters is the objective one since subjectively everyone has different opinions on what sounds 'good'.

But either way, what's important here is things relating to the update process (does it have a firmware partition, are firmware updates encrypted, etc, etc) and high resolution scans of the board.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: terrence1019 on September 10, 2007, 12:15:54 AM
THis is what everyone should do: Relax. I'm sure the guys over at iPod linux will discover what to do. That will make things a whole lot easier for us Rockboxers. Let's just wait and see what they can do in the mean time.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scorche on September 10, 2007, 12:48:29 AM
As they have done nothing for the second gen Nanos, one should not expect much (not saying this will happen...just providing a base).  Waiting for other people to do things is never a good decision as we suggest a lot on these forums.  If you wish for a port to happen, one must take charge and work on it themselves to be sure it will happen.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 10, 2007, 01:14:22 AM
...and given the last time I spoke to the guys at iPL, and they said "we're not working on the 2nd Gen Nano", I think it will be a long wait indeed.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: wesmo on September 10, 2007, 06:33:36 AM

As they have done nothing for the second gen Nanos, one should not expect much (not saying this will happen...just providing a base).  Waiting for other people to do things is never a good decision as we suggest a lot on these forums.  If you wish for a port to happen, one must take charge and work on it themselves to be sure it will happen.


So why don't we raise some funds to get some new ipods for devs who have offered to take it apart...

Wouldn't that be enough to get the ball rolling (a couple of ipods + a couple of devs)???
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 10, 2007, 06:36:19 AM
Assuming the current firmware is encrypted, just having the hardware won't help much. I know of at least one dev who already has access to the 2nd Gen Nano - and as you know - nothing's happened on that front at all.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: N3G4T1v3 on September 10, 2007, 08:35:21 AM
Just a question, isn't it possible to hack the update that are loaded onto the iPod when you update them through iTunes??
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 10, 2007, 08:38:00 AM
If it were that easy, don't you think we'd have a port for the 2nd Gen nano already? Apple put some very nasty encryption on the 2nd Gen nano, as well as the new iPod Classic and the 3rd Gen nano.

Besides, I believe someone already tried this and failed. You can search the forums to confirm.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: N3G4T1v3 on September 10, 2007, 08:45:17 AM
I highly dout that this will hellp but i found this of wikipedia.org
it says that the 2nd gen uses a ARM Processor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod_nano

here a little bit of information about ARM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 10, 2007, 08:46:34 AM

I highly dout that this will hellp but i found this of wikipedia.org
it says that the 2nd gen uses a ARM Processor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod_nano

here a little bit of information about ARM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture


This is information we already have. It's the encryption of the nano firmware that's the problem.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scorche on September 10, 2007, 03:29:40 PM

Wouldn't that be enough to get the ball rolling (a couple of ipods + a couple of devs)???


No it wouldn't, as that only satisfies one of the things needed for a port.  Motivation and time are still needed, and which may not be available to many devs, as they may be currently working on something else, or have other priorities.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 12, 2007, 01:48:13 PM
Can anyone confirm this yet?

Would it be possible to buy a 160GB classic and an 80GB 5.5 gen, swap HD's, rockbox the 160GB hd in the 5.5 and then sell the classic as an 80gb classic instead of a 160gb classic?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 12, 2007, 02:05:07 PM
I believe the drive connectors are different - so no, you couldn't do that.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Hellmark on September 14, 2007, 02:26:28 PM
From the photos I've seen, the videos had an actual cable for the drive, where as the classics have a cartridge style quick disconnect socket mounted on.

Too bad though, because yeah, bigger sized video ipod would rock.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 14, 2007, 02:30:04 PM
The hard drives used in the iPod video used ZIF (zero insertion force) connectors. Every generation before them used hard drives with a 50 pin connector.

Seems that Toshiba's new hard drives for the iPod classic are once again 50 pin connectors. But a single platter 80GB hard drive may be more useful for my girlfriend's iriver H320 than anything. :)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 14, 2007, 11:59:01 PM

Seems that Toshiba's new hard drives for the iPod classic are once again 50 pin connectors. But a single platter 80GB hard drive may be more useful for my girlfriend's iriver H320 than anything. :)


Are you saying it would be possible to fit a 160GB HD into a H140/H340? I've been waiting for something like the iPod classic to finally wave goodbye to the H140, but if it's possible to put a 160GB HD in it, then maybe I could hold on to it for just a little bit more:)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scrollop on September 17, 2007, 06:27:41 AM
Does this count as progress?
http://www.monroe.nu/archives/110-iPod-Classic-Will-Be-Supported.html

More pics of the insides of the new range:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/09/10/a_peek_inside_apples_new_nano_and_classic_ipods_photos.html

EDIT: sorry, though those pics are posted on a different site, they are the same as those posted earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 17, 2007, 06:29:27 AM

Does this count as progress?
http://www.monroe.nu/archives/110-iPod-Classic-Will-Be-Supported.html


No - it just means you can use 3rd party programs to sync your new ipod, instead of being forced to use iTunes.

Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 17, 2007, 08:52:07 AM

Are you saying it would be possible to fit a 160GB HD into a H140/H340? I've been waiting for something like the iPod classic to finally wave goodbye to the H140, but if it's possible to put a 160GB HD in it, then maybe I could hold on to it for just a little bit more:)


I'm sure you should be able to fit one in, but I don't think you'll be able to use the whole amount of it. If I recall correctly, Rockbox will only see up to 137GB of the drive.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: AlexP on September 17, 2007, 08:55:40 AM
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome?topic=BigDisk may help, but I know nothing of the disk controller in the iPods
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 17, 2007, 09:27:20 AM
Do you think that some of the devs over on IRC may know a little more about the disk controllers on the iPods and iriver devices?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 17, 2007, 09:39:59 AM
What do you want to know ?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 17, 2007, 09:58:17 AM
According to the wiki page BigBambi pointed out earlier, I know that Rockbox doesn't use LBA48 addressing. But the problem is that the wiki page hasn't been updated in quite a while... nine months, to be exact. Plus, most of that info is for the Archos devices, but I'm sure things like partitioning information would carry to all devices.

Since we have made progress with the 5.5G iPod video 80GB, what I wanted to know was if anyone on the dev team has researched the disk controllers on more modern systems, and perhaps found out what their limits on hard drive sizes are, and how they can handle the data for larger hard drives. I would figure, but not state as fact, that provided I can find an H340 backplate, I could upgrade the H320 to 160GB. But would the iriver be able to handle it, and would Rockbox on the H300 series be able to see the data on the partition?

As for the iPod side of things, my dad's had his fun with Rockbox and is thinking about getting the iPod Classic. That means I'll be the owner of a 4G greyscale iPod, but I wanted to know how the older iPod would handle larger drives.

Think of it as looking for insightful information.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Llorean on September 17, 2007, 10:06:16 AM
Note: THE FOLLOWING IS PURE CONJECTURE COMBINED WITH GUESSWORK (but I'm reasonably confident of it despite that)

As it says, the addressing is purely a software issue. From that standpoint, I *believe* that >137GB disks are no problem to Rockbox, they're only a problem to the PC, and only if the USB-to-ATA bridge has that problem.

This problem definitely affects the Archoses, as we know. This problem probably will not affect the Software USB targets (Portalplayers, iPods included) because there is no USB-ATA bridge doohicky,  there's just our software. (Yes, I used doohicky, I hate to admit it but I like that word).

For the other targets (h100, h300, x5, m5, gigabeat, etc) I imagine it'll depend on the nature of the hardware.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 17, 2007, 11:40:42 AM

According to the wiki page BigBambi pointed out earlier, I know that Rockbox doesn't use LBA48 addressing. But the problem is that the wiki page hasn't been updated in quite a while... nine months, to be exact. Plus, most of that info is for the Archos devices, but I'm sure things like partitioning information would carry to all devices.


Rockbox most definitely does use LBA48 addressing when compiled to do so. This support has been in Rockbox since January of this year.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 17, 2007, 11:53:45 AM
Should've mentioned it being used only when a build is compiled to do so.

But do all builds have to be compiled to use LBA48 addressing, or is this just for the Archos devices (considering what Llorean pointed out earlier)?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 17, 2007, 12:21:47 PM
Any build *could* use it - it's just that Archoses were the only DAPs that needed it because they were the only one huge disks could fit in. The 1.8" 160GB drive in the new iPods has changed all that though.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 17, 2007, 12:33:22 PM
The Floating Head of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs understands and brings forth Slack in exchange for that information.  ;)

Rockbox - now with 50 percent more Slack!
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 18, 2007, 11:26:18 PM
Ok, so for those with no technical knowledge on anything that was said above, so therefore doesn't understand what conclusion has been come to:

Is it possible to have a full 160GB hd on the H100/H300/iPod 5.5 or even iPod Classic, with rockbox?

:)  
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: saratoga on September 18, 2007, 11:42:13 PM
Sure, as said above, LBA48 support was added ages ago.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 19, 2007, 02:11:18 AM
I wasn't sure what lba48 support was, so you're saying that a 160GB HD can be fitted, and the full capacity recognised, with ROCKBOX loaded onto it on the H100, H300 and iPod 5.5 Video? I thought there was a problem with different connections or something?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: AlexP on September 19, 2007, 02:15:01 AM
I linked to a wiki page a few posts back.  That says there are two potential problems, software and hardware.  Software is not a problem, Rockbox has the necessary software LBA48 support.

That leaves hardware:

1) Find a disk big enough with the coirrect connector, or make an adaptor for another

2)

[big disks] they're only a problem to the PC, and only if the USB-to-ATA bridge has that problem.

This problem definitely affects the Archoses, as we know. This problem probably will not affect the Software USB targets (Portalplayers, iPods included) because there is no USB-ATA bridge doohicky,  there's just our software. (Yes, I used doohicky, I hate to admit it but I like that word).

For the other targets (h100, h300, x5, m5, gigabeat, etc) I imagine it'll depend on the nature of the hardware.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 19, 2007, 02:37:29 AM
So is it yet to be confirmed whether a 160GB HD can connect to a H300/H100/iPod 5.5 Video hardware wise, or is it known and possible/impossible?

You're talking to a complete ignoramus here with regards all the technical things. I just like my music, and lots of it, so would love to get an mp3 player with 160GB using RockBox.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 19, 2007, 05:21:44 AM
The iPod video won't work with the new iPod Classic's hard drives. The iPod video uses what's called a "Zero Insertion Force" connector on the hard drive, instead of a regular 50-pin connector. If you remember the old days of the NES, you may have heard of ZIF.

You could, however, use the drives in the older iPod generations, and there should be no reason why they wouldn't work in the iriver H100/H300 models.

If you want to know more about LBA and ZIF, here's some articles on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_block_addressing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Insertion_Force
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: markun on September 19, 2007, 05:46:11 AM

The iPod video won't work with the new iPod Classic's hard drives. The iPod video uses what's called a "Zero Insertion Force" connector on the hard drive, instead of a regular 50-pin connector. If you remember the old days of the NES, you may have heard of ZIF.


But it's possible to build an adapter:

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HardDriveReplacement#Interesting_links
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 19, 2007, 09:37:29 AM
Hmmm, so I could buy a 160GB classic and put the HD in my H140 and load rockbox onto it? Would I then be able to put my 40GB HD into the classic and sell that as a 40GB classic with scrolling album art and whatever the classic has? Would be a lot easier if the classic was rockboxable :( Is it definitely not rockboxable or just not yet known?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Llorean on September 19, 2007, 09:47:51 AM
I'd definitely not Rockboxable unless someone actually works on it.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: soap on September 19, 2007, 10:39:49 AM

Hmmm, so I could buy a 160GB classic and put the HD in my H140 and load rockbox onto it? Would I then be able to put my 40GB HD into the classic and sell that as a 40GB classic with scrolling album art and whatever the classic has? Would be a lot easier if the classic was rockboxable :( Is it definitely not rockboxable or just not yet known?


Let us clear up the confusion.
The iPod Classic does not use the same HDD interface as your H140.
It might use a ZIF drive(for which you could hack a homemade adapter for your H140), but most evidence points to it using a CE-ATA drive (for which no physical adapter can be made as it is a different protocol.)
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 19, 2007, 11:12:47 AM
No arguing with soap... I came across this on my many travels:

http://www.ifixit.com/Parts/stream/4/large/6-1.jpg

Definitely not a 50-pin connector. Looks like we may have to do some shopping.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 19, 2007, 11:14:02 AM
Ok thanks. So as of now, there is no option to get rockbox on any 160GB hd for any device, right?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 19, 2007, 11:15:15 AM
If Toshiba actually did design 1.8" hard drives of this capacity with 50-pin connectors, then we could. But buying an iPod Classic to gut it is now most definitely out of the question without some serious hardware hacking.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Walrus on September 19, 2007, 06:15:25 PM
And of course, just as with the 80 gig ipods, no other company will bother putting out a similarly-sized player to compete with Apple.    :-\
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 19, 2007, 09:14:50 PM

And of course, just as with the 80 gig ipods, no other company will bother putting out a similarly-sized player to compete with Apple.    :-\


Why do you think that is? Do you not reckon iRiver/Cowon/Creative would have a loyal following and could get a lot of attention>sales if they did? There's more competition in the lower capacity market so surely some competition in the higher capacity market would get the competitors some sales? Is it really that hard to just release a 160GB player that's rockboxable with good sound quality and battery life? I mean the H140 slimmed down and given a 160GB HD would, for me, be the perfect MP3 player.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: TexasRockbox on September 19, 2007, 09:36:35 PM
Archos has a 605 model with 160GB offered.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: achoudry on September 20, 2007, 07:22:33 AM
hi,

i've been through this post and am still not sure what the final conclusion was  ???

will there be an implementation of rockbox for the 3rd generation ipod nano's or not?

thanks
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 20, 2007, 07:28:27 AM
This was your thread, was it not?

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=12817.0

You were told to search the forums, and then pointed (I figure) to this thread.

We have next to no information about the nano's firmware or encryption method used on said firmware. Therefore, nothing can be done at this moment.

Your options right now are to either buy a supported player (they're listed on the front page), sit back and wait, or buy a nano, crack it open, and start doing the work yourself. We don't ports on request, and if you want it really badly, then you should motivate yourself to get working on a port.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: achoudry on September 20, 2007, 07:32:04 AM
thanks for the information!

i wouldn't know where to even begin working on a port by the way!
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: LambdaCalculus on September 20, 2007, 07:37:15 AM
Start here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DocsIndex?topic=NewPort
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 24, 2007, 01:17:15 PM
So what exactly is needed to get this confirmed?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 24, 2007, 01:41:08 PM
Get what confirmed?

You didn't ask a question.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 24, 2007, 05:12:12 PM
oops :D

I was just talking about the Original post, as in, what is needed to confirm whether or not rockbox is possible on the 160GB iPod classic?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scorche on September 24, 2007, 05:13:19 PM
It is impossible as long as no one steps forward to do the port.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 24, 2007, 06:39:54 PM
But that's the question;) is it patchable?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: scorche on September 24, 2007, 06:41:52 PM
Anything is possible given enough time.  But if no one is working on it, then it isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 25, 2007, 02:03:19 AM
Ok, well at least that gives some hope:)

I'm surprised there's little interest in it by the Rockbox Dev's, I thought a big factor of the massive interest in the H140 was the fact it was a big capacity player at the time. Obviously the optical ports and recording drew a lot of Devs to the device aswell though!
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: GodEater on September 25, 2007, 02:10:27 AM
and the fact that it was an "easyish" port helped a lot too. The original firmware wasn't encrypted, had lots of helpful debugging info in it and the hardware was documented to a certain degree. And even then the port took about a year to get sound going, and then a lot of time afterwards to really settle down.

Looking at the iPod classic as a target now - well - I just find it depressing to even think of the amount of work to do just to find out HOW to run code on it. After that you've got to start reverse engineering the hardware, because there's no documentation on it. Then you've got to do all the hard work of the Rockbox low level stuff porting, and finally the tweaks at the end that look easy from where we're standing now - but likely won't be.

If a team of three of four REALLY good developers started work on this today, I think you're looking at about three years to get it in a state where you'd want to use it. And by then Apple will have released three other models of iPod that you will ALSO be clamouring to have Rockbox working on.

Just thinking of all that de-motivates me loads.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: c0utta on September 25, 2007, 02:37:14 AM

Ok thanks. So as of now, there is no option to get rockbox on any 160GB hd for any device, right?


According to http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HardDriveReplacement#Rockbox_targets_using_1_8_drives it may be possible to use the new (as yet, unavailable) Samsung N series 160GB in an iPod Video 5.5 since they're both ZIF 40.

We'll have to wait until the drive is released to see whether it's possible.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

Cheers,

c0utta
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Bagder on September 25, 2007, 02:37:29 AM

I'm surprised there's little interest in it by the Rockbox Dev's, I thought a big factor of the massive interest in the H140 was the fact it was a big capacity player at the time.


It certainly was not. We had bigger disks on the Archos already at the time we started the iriver ports.

The iriver units were selected because they use standard, documented parts and in general were players with lots of the "right choices" done. To be honest, I don't think ipods do many right choices taken their large storage aside.

And the iriver h1x0 port was unique in many ways since that was the first swcodec architecture Rockbox was ported to.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 25, 2007, 03:50:51 AM
Thanks for the info everyone:)

Suppose that Samsung N Series 160GB could be an option. How much do you reckon a 160GB 1.8 HD would sell for on its own?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Yotto on September 25, 2007, 04:54:29 AM
Considering Apple's iPhone announcement (They won't honor the warranty if you hack them) I am changing my (i)tune.  I was planning, when I finally outgrew my iPod 30 gig, to purchase the largest iPod supported by Rockbox.  New.

But now I think I'll pick up something used, or something more mod friendly.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: c0utta on September 25, 2007, 06:11:56 AM

Thanks for the info everyone:)

Suppose that Samsung N Series 160GB could be an option. How much do you reckon a 160GB 1.8 HD would sell for on its own?


In my research I found US$249 was rrp.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: cormie on September 25, 2007, 05:22:58 PM
That's pretty dear for just a HD, more than 2/3 the total price of a 160gb classic:(
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Flid on September 26, 2007, 05:06:49 AM
Strangely enough... Apple will be buying them slightly cheaper than that.
And... that really isn't expensive, for the size and capacity of that drive.
When the 5mm drives break 100GB... I'm so on it, regardless of cost (unless of course, rockbox is very successfully ported to the new 160GB classic).
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Bugsy on September 30, 2007, 03:38:45 PM
Beat me sideways with a cat.

My 30gb 5.0 iPod screen just broke. And I was planning to buy the 80gb right before they put out the new ones.

There is no words for my sadness.

An iPod with the original firmware, is crap for the standard naive retard consumer. I enjoy music, and having the possibility to actually use my player the way I want.

Has anyone even tried putting the rockbox firmware we have for the 5.5 onto the new ones?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: krazykit on September 30, 2007, 03:47:54 PM

Has anyone even tried putting the rockbox firmware we have for the 5.5 onto the new ones?


It won't work.  As has been said in several threads, the hardware is completely different on the new Classics.
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: Bugsy on September 30, 2007, 03:54:37 PM
Curses.

What are my choices then? I'm addicted to rockbox on my 30gb, but I need more space. Any players you people can recommend?
Title: Re: new ipods - rockbox port proposal
Post by: soap on September 30, 2007, 05:02:05 PM
This thread has gotten to the point it serves no purpose.
Locked.