Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => User Interface and Voice => Topic started by: RowaN on August 09, 2005, 10:49:25 AM

Title: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: RowaN on August 09, 2005, 10:49:25 AM
Pressing LEFT exits to the WPS from context menu...

Pressing LEFT exits to the WPS from settings menu...

Who else thinks pressing LEFT should also exit from the root to the WPS too? It seems logical to me, and being a feature of the original iriver firmware (that evil thing) I personally found it quite ergonomic (it feels right).

At present you have to press play to return to the WPS, which seems a bit odd, especially as your cursor could be highlighting a mp3 file at the time (which wouldnt then play when you press play). I'd prefer to be able to use the play button to pause the current track (cant currently pause unless you return to WPS).
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on August 09, 2005, 11:23:33 AM
I agree with you :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Jonny on August 09, 2005, 11:58:43 AM
I'd hate this to be introduced as this is something that pissed me off about the original firmware. I often hold left when in an album to quickly get back to the root but this would no longer be possible. However, if holding left stopped at the root and then a further press of left went to the WPS it would be quite good.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on August 09, 2005, 12:43:33 PM
Can you then suggest a way to go to the WPS without going all the way back to the root?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Assimalyst on August 09, 2005, 12:48:35 PM
Dosn't 'Play' already do that?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: bluebrother on August 09, 2005, 01:06:54 PM
it would be a nice feature as pressing "play" also starts playback if you're in stop mode. I think it would be best to make this optional, i.e. the users who hate it can turn it off :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: OtisFunkmeyer on August 09, 2005, 01:09:52 PM
Well, it was suggested that 'Play' remains as 'Play/pause' when navigation.  How about another button to bring you back to the wps, like 'stop' or 'rec'?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on August 09, 2005, 01:23:16 PM
Wait a min... you want the LEFT to go straight to WPS even if you are in a folder?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: vinylivo on August 09, 2005, 01:24:51 PM
What about a timeout when there's something playing for going back to wps like in the original fw?

pressing play is fine for me for going back to wps manually. it's ok if we are in root that pressing left goes to wps as well because it has no other function but could be problematic if people press left several times for going to root and then accidentally did it once too much and then are back in wps.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Assimalyst on August 09, 2005, 01:34:36 PM
Wait a min... you want the LEFT to go straight to WPS even if you are in a folder?

Only if you're in the root folder
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Jonny on August 09, 2005, 02:04:14 PM
Can you then suggest a way to go to the WPS without going all the way back to the root?

Don't get me wrong. I like it best how it is now. It's just that if it were to be introduced, It could be in addition to pressing play.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: kenshin on August 09, 2005, 03:25:49 PM
What about a timeout when there's something playing for going back to wps like in the original fw?

I've always felt the directory browser should timeout if there's active playback; return to the WPS if no keys have been pressed for 30 or 60 seconds or some such. Sometimes I get into the directory browser without knowing it then 1, 5, 10, 20 minutes later try to adjust the volume but nothing happens.

Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: RowaN on August 09, 2005, 03:56:29 PM
Quote
Wait a min... you want the LEFT to go straight to WPS even if you are in a folder?

NO.. like I say in the title.. I'm suggesting LEFT goes to WPS if pressed when you are at the ROOT.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: laberlaber on August 09, 2005, 04:28:44 PM
I agree.  I always thought it was weird that you'd have to press play to get back the WPS  ???
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: powercut on August 09, 2005, 04:41:47 PM
I definately agree. I also think pressing play on file browser should play that file/directory and pressing stop should take you back to the WPS (press twice to stop track altogether)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on August 10, 2005, 12:56:57 AM
In the long run, is it possible to configure all these buttons ourselves through the settings on the iRiver?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on August 10, 2005, 04:26:24 AM
I can't stand having to press LEFT dozens of times to get back to the WPS on my iRiver H300.

Man, I can't wait for this firmware. ;)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: RowaN on August 10, 2005, 05:04:43 AM
If both play AND left (currently unused) took you from root to WPS.. everyone would be happy?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on August 10, 2005, 05:08:36 AM
Personally, I think the Play button should do what the button says, play the file (or enter the directory). IMHO we need to rethink the entire button scheme on the iriver.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Assimalyst on August 10, 2005, 05:59:09 AM
I'd agree with that Linus.

Perhaps 'Rec' could be used to replace 'Play' as the return to WPS button. Don't think it does anything in file browser. If i'm mistaken maybe a long press would be better?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Neff on August 10, 2005, 06:29:23 AM
Personally, I think the Play button should do what the button says, play the file (or enter the directory). IMHO we need to rethink the entire button scheme on the iriver.
And just to confuse matters there are still some places where you are prompted to press play to confirm when it means press select (e.g. recursive insert of a directory to a playlist). I think I've seen others but can't remember where at the moment.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Bagder on August 10, 2005, 06:42:17 AM
I disagree. I think the play button on iriver should be used as the ON button is used on other models. Which it is now...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on August 10, 2005, 07:39:15 AM
IMHO, it would be great if the button configuration could be made as consistent as possible, and if matters could be as one-handed as possible for play-like functions, focusing on the joystick once play has begun, to avoid "finger disruption."

I wonder if some further use of the joystick could be made.  For example, in iRiver, to advance from folder to folder while in play mode, one could do a short right (or left) press of the joystick followed by a long--would be great if this could be utilized in Rockbox for this function (which is a great one  ;D) as well as others in other modes.  For example, in scrolling thru lists, couldn't this short-long press combination be used to scroll thru screens rather than the list one by one, or to scroll thru the list by the letters of the alphabet (which would be great)?  Or couldn't an up/down short-long combination press be used for options as well?

Also, I don't know if this is the place for it (but what the heck), but might the iRiver's A-B play loop function be possible with Rockbox?  That actually seemed to make sense using the A-B function, as one's hands already would be off the player when deciding to use it.  This is a good function for studying music.  Perhaps it could be moved to the record button, where it also would make sense in light of the functions use being made of the A-B button (or the functions uses could be moved to the record button--if that wouldn't get in the way of later recording uses).
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: kenshin on August 10, 2005, 10:12:10 AM
Also, I don't know if this is the place for it (but what the heck), but might the iRiver's A-B play loop function be possible with Rockbox?

I don't know about anyone else, but I always hated that looping. It was slow and if you happened to doze for a split second while your target was active you had to loop through the whole damn list again. I'm quite fond of the Rockbox A-B implementation (is this the "Quick Menu"?).
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: OtisFunkmeyer on August 10, 2005, 11:03:54 AM
Also, I don't know if this is the place for it (but what the heck), but might the iRiver's A-B play loop function be possible with Rockbox?

I don't know about anyone else, but I always hated that looping. It was slow and if you happened to doze for a split second while your target was active you had to loop through the whole damn list again. I'm quite fond of the Rockbox A-B implementation (is this the "Quick Menu"?).

No, the a-b loop refers to picking a start (a) and stop (b) time in a song so you can loop that selection of music, like a sampler.  I, too wish this was implemented in rockbox.  It is handy for hip hop producers looking for loops, and deejays, as well as musicians learning songs.
pitch and speed adjustment would be amazing also.  Iriver firmware has pitch adjust, but it's very rough.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: nobby on August 11, 2005, 06:08:19 AM
I agree with daniel on this one.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: kenshin on August 11, 2005, 09:52:18 AM
No, the a-b loop refers to picking a start (a) and stop (b) time in a song so you can loop that selection of music, like a sampler.

Ah. Never used it before. Never will. But by all means, if someone wants to code it, put it in somehow.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: bigtrouble77 on August 11, 2005, 02:39:11 PM
Just thought I'd say that I like the way the buttons currently configured.  There's alot less mis-clicking the way it is now.  I really hated the iriver feature of clicking left at root to bring up the song info- when clicking quicky through songs I would always mistakingly get to that screen and have to start over.  Maybe adding that as an option would make everyone happy, but I wouldn't set it as default.

The only thing I have a big problem with is how difficult it is to create and save playlists.  Maybe i'm just not used to it yet but I'm constantly overwriting playlists as I try to create them, adding directories I don't want and having difficulty saving them properly.  I attribute this mostly to not knowing what buttons to click at each step.  Maybe I should keep notes...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: psycho_maniac on August 12, 2005, 01:13:32 AM
i dont like looping much either. ive used it to listen to something very funny like a thousand times when im wasted but other than that i dont use it. i also think that the scheme of the buttons needs to rethought. mabey we could have an area where people vote for what does what and the most voted for will be chosen?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: muesli on August 12, 2005, 07:09:44 AM
there's a little red=stop button called record. would be fine to define this one as the default for exiting ANY menu. play and stop imho shouldn't be assigned twice: always to be used as their names indicate
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on August 16, 2005, 04:41:17 PM
Well, I asked someone nicely on the IRC channel and they made me a SMALL patch (only like 2 lines long) that does this for me... it works a treat.  I have asked for his permission if I can post it here, and if he says Yes, then I will :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Marcogringo on August 18, 2005, 07:04:46 AM
I didn't read all the previous messages, but, here is my idea :

When u are in "browse screen" :
- "play" button : do the default action (like dubble clic on windows), so, it'll open a directrory, play a music file, ...
- "record" button : allow the switch between active screens (a bit like Alt + Tab on windows). If u are playing a song while browsing files and that u press this button on time, it print the WPS screen. An other pression will make u return to the "browse screen". If u are listenig to the radio while browsing, it'll be the same thing with WPrS (While Playing radio Screen).
After, we'll could extend this system, per example : if you are recording the radio. One press on "record" button will carry u out, from the WRS (While Recording Screen) to the WPrS. The next pression will carry u out to the "browse files" screen. The next pression will bring u back to the WRS.

What about this idea ?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Marcogringo on August 18, 2005, 07:08:29 AM
Maybe it would be better to use the "jostick clic" to do these screen switch....
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Marcogringo on August 25, 2005, 03:35:48 AM
No reactions. Was my idea not clear ?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: kenshin on August 25, 2005, 11:05:32 AM
I agree that the button layout needs rethinking and more consistency but the idea that one button will have one function regardless of what screen is active is ludicrous. Buttons should perform the most logical function on the current screen. Retooling buttons is not inherently bad if there's a logical layout on each screen. And frankly, using "play" to exit the menus back to the WPS seems stupid to me. I would prefer "stop" which to me says "stop browsing".

And voting for "favorite layouts" is, in my experience, at best a crapshoot. What makes most sense to one user will seem insanely stupid to another. Quite frankly, only a handful of users really understand the impact of changing how buttons are handled and which one performs which function on which screen. I've been using Rockbox for over 6 months. I've dug into the code and subitted patches. And I still don't know which buttons do what on half the screens I use.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: TiMiD on August 26, 2005, 06:23:57 PM
And voting for "favorite layouts" is, in my experience, at best a crapshoot. What makes most sense to one user will seem insanely stupid to another.
I totally agree
I'm convinced that the best thing would be to make the button's layout totally customisable with a config file in which you could associate an action with a key, a key combination, a short press / long press

Also, a feature that miss me the most when I'm using rockbox is the "skip to next/last directory" shortcut (short + long joypad key press or rec on the remote in the original fw)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on August 26, 2005, 09:02:01 PM
Timid--  I agree with you as to the folder skip idea and I posted it as a feature request last weekend--hopefully, someone will pick it up!

:)

I also think that the short+long press key combination is a great possibility that isn't being taken advantage of as an option, such as for the folder skip or to scroll through long lists--that assumes that Rockbox could use that combination, of course.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on August 27, 2005, 03:28:51 AM
Oh I forgot to post the patch that allows you to go from root to wps:

Code: [Select]
Index: tree.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/rockbox/apps/tree.c,v
retrieving revision 1.343
diff -u -b -r1.343 tree.c
--- tree.c 6 Jul 2005 22:57:54 -0000 1.343
+++ tree.c 16 Aug 2005 18:07:03 -0000
@@ -746,8 +746,10 @@
                     break;
                 }
 
-                if (!tc.dirlevel)
+                if (tc.dirlevel == 0) { /*root*/
+                    start_wps = true;
                     break;
+                }
 
                 if (id3db)
                     db_exit(&tc);
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on August 28, 2005, 05:51:37 PM
Hmm--for some reason, doesn't work for me with today's build.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on August 29, 2005, 01:00:09 AM
It doesn't work after you have just unplugged the USB cable, and it boots to root.  It will only work when you end up going to root yourself. 
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on August 29, 2005, 07:54:30 AM
Thnaks, but Hmm again:  I just booted up, started playing a tune, clicked the joystick to get to the root director, and moved the joystick to the left to get back to the WPS, and no go ...

I had copied the above text as is into a Notepad file and used that as a .patch; by any chance was I supposed to delete something (like the top header info.)?

Ah, well ....
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on August 29, 2005, 08:32:17 AM
Try applying the patch manually!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on August 29, 2005, 08:52:43 AM
Thanks, and now you're REALLY testing my skills--I'm happy to be able to get CVS to work for me (or, better said, me to work for CVS) and to patch some files!

:)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on August 29, 2005, 09:52:45 AM
OK, Hshah, applied the patch manually and it worked great!  (Actually, I'm just relieved I didn't break the player.  ;) )

The left press really is intuitive--I had to think about what was different, it was so natural to use.  And it avoids having to move one's hand around to use the play/pause button--highly recommended for adoption!

:)

A couple of manual patching questions, from someone who doesn't do this (and so please forgive their basic nature):

--  In Windows Wordpad (which I used to edit the file), I get save document  choices of Text Document, Text Document - MS DOS Format, and Unicode Text Document (as well as Rich Text Format RTF)); I used the first, at which point I get a message about formatting not being saved--was this the correct format for saving?

--  In manually adding in the changes, are the spaces in each line important?  I tried to make everything look like the original above, including the blank spaces in each line and how the lines lined up, but wasn't sure that this was necessary.

And, thanks, again!

(edit:  And actually, a final question:  sometimes when I open a file in Windows Notepad, all the text is a run-on paragraph, with no line breaks; other times, the lines breaks are there.  Is there a rhyme or reason for this?  It doesn't seem to relate to Word Wrap for me.  Wordpad almost always seems to keep line breaks in.)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: kenshin on August 29, 2005, 10:06:27 AM
Oh I forgot to post the patch that allows you to go from root to wps:

Thanks for the patch, hshah. Now I'll know exactly what to change back in my personal builds if this ever goes into CVS.

--  In manually adding in the changes, are the spaces in each line important?  I tried to make everything look like the original above, including the blank spaces in each line and how the lines lined up, but wasn't sure that this was necessary.

In general, extra whitespace in C code does nothing. If the whitespace is quoted then your output will be different. But if you're talking about leading or trailing whitespace have as much as you like.

(edit: And actually, a final question: sometimes when I open a file in Windows Notepad, all the text is a run-on paragraph, with no line breaks; other times, the lines breaks are there. Is there a rhyme or reason for this? It doesn't seem to relate to Word Wrap for me. Wordpad almost always seems to keep line breaks in.)

The file you opened is using unix end of line markers (one character) and notepad only reads Windows end of line markers (two characters). Notepad is just being stupid.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on September 10, 2005, 03:28:47 PM
Poo, this patch is no longer working for me.  Anyone know how to fix it?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: TiMiD on September 10, 2005, 07:35:43 PM
Poo, this patch is no longer working for me.  Anyone know how to fix it?
just edit apps/tree.c and change this piece of code line 750 :
Quote
                if (!tc.dirlevel)
                    break;

with

Quote

                if (!tc.dirlevel && audio_status()!=0)
                {
                    /* if we are in / directory and a song is selected in the wps screen, jump to wps */
                    start_wps = true;
                    break;
                }
(i'm too lazy to make a new patch ;D)

maybe this should be added to the cvs since it's very convenient and it's very unlikely this piece of code would generate a bug
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on September 11, 2005, 12:36:59 AM
I might modify that and remove the && audio_status()!=0 so that it always goes back to WPS regardless of the fact that it is playing a song!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: TiMiD on September 11, 2005, 11:42:03 AM
I might modify that and remove the && audio_status()!=0 so that it always goes back to WPS regardless of the fact that it is playing a song!

I added && audio_status()!=0 to correct a small bug with this patch : when you start your player and when resume is off, the player is in the file browser program and then if you press back it goes to wps but nothing is displayed, the screen remains the same (you see files and directories) but since you are now in wps program, you are obliged to press the select button to go back to directories (I don't know if I explain clearly clear here)


audio_status() returns 0 when no song is loaded and others values wether a song is paused or playing ...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on September 12, 2005, 12:22:27 AM
Ahh rite - ok :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: TiMiD on September 13, 2005, 08:25:27 AM
However, I think that a cleaner approach would be to simply avoid returning to wps if no song is loaded

then around line 1150
Quote
        if (start_wps)
        {
            lcd_stop_scroll();
...

becomes
Quote
        if (start_wps && audio_status()!=0)
        {
            lcd_stop_scroll();
...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on October 30, 2005, 12:18:23 PM
The tree.c file has now changed and this patch cannot be applied in the same way - any modification to the patch please?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on October 30, 2005, 12:50:27 PM
Here's a working patch.


[attachment deleted by admin, too old]
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on October 30, 2005, 12:52:38 PM
cool - thanks LinusN :D
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: XavierGr on October 30, 2005, 10:11:30 PM
Well, here is my opinion about exiting and entering the wps:

Currently rockbox on iriver has 2 selection buttons. "Right" and "Single Joystick Down (click)".
This, IMHO, is a keymap waste.

I have made a patch that makes the single click button to both exit (as default) and enter the wps, no matter where the user is on the filetree.

So you hear a tune and want to check the filetree? Press click and you will exit the wps. Then if you want to get back to WPS you will press again joystick click and you are set.

I prefer this way because it is easy to remember and more easy for the hand. (this way you don't need to change hand position to reach the play button) Also I've set this for the radio too. (if you are outside the radio screen and press click you will be directed again to the radio screen.

Also another matter for me is the exit button of the Main menu. Currently when a user wants to exit the main menu, he will have to press one of the exit buttons which are 3! "Stop", "Left" and "A-B"(menu) buttons. All these buttons do the same thing exit the current menu screen and go to the upper menu level, but none of them can exit the menu immediately. So once again we could use the click to exit the menu immediately to where the user was before his entrance in the menu.

Only problem with that is that some may be confused, because many have in their minds that click == select.

Any comments, or further thoughts?

I will attach my patch here to test, it is only slight modification of the tree.c (I am not sure if it builds cleanly on latest build)



[attachment deleted by admin, too old]
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: muesli on October 31, 2005, 06:55:10 PM
i love that idea but cant test it due missing self compiling skills...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: XavierGr on October 31, 2005, 10:13:45 PM
muesli: Here is my current build. It is not the latest but you can test the feature I am proposing.

http://www.misticriver.net/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=11302&pos=0

Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: muesli on November 01, 2005, 04:58:26 AM
i am currently running firefly's remote build excluding timid's changes. is that similar?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: blackreplica on November 01, 2005, 05:09:43 AM
Can someone better versed in this give a noob an idea of how to implement linus' patch to allow me to go back to the wps by left click? Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: bluebrother on November 01, 2005, 05:42:20 AM
you need to compile rockbox from sources ... See the Wiki on how to do this.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: len0x on November 01, 2005, 06:23:05 AM
Can someone better versed in this give a noob an idea of how to implement linus' patch to allow me to go back to the wps by left click? Thanks in advance

you can always use my build :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mmmm on November 01, 2005, 06:34:19 AM
Can someone better versed in this give a noob an idea of how to implement linus' patch to allow me to go back to the wps by left click? Thanks in advance

There is a really quite fantastic guide on how to compile and do various other things in the Wiki, just click on the green link in my signature. :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: blackreplica on November 01, 2005, 07:30:44 PM
thanks for the help guys, i checked out the wiki page and was royally confused....i am using len0x's build instead...works great! The other features are pretty cool too1 :D thanks dude
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on November 02, 2005, 06:47:46 AM
thanks for the help guys, i checked out the wiki page and was royally confused....i am using len0x's build instead...works great! The other features are pretty cool too1 :D thanks dude

I made my Simplified Guide very very easy... lol... you shouldn't be confused :p
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: len0x on November 02, 2005, 06:23:28 PM
Is there a reason this functionality (LEFT to WPS) didn't make it to the CVS despite most users wanting it? (coz I can rectify that :) )
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: nobby on November 02, 2005, 06:37:28 PM
I think a few core devs disliked it. Perhaps a menu option?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: roolku on November 02, 2005, 07:40:43 PM
I dislike it as it slows down my navigation. Imagine the following scenario: I am listening to a song which is deeply hidden in the file tree but suddenly fancy another. I click and tap left several times in a quick fashion to put myself in the root and go down from there. With the "left to wps" patch I will have to slowly go up the tree for fear of overshooting my target in which case I would find myself back at the WPS and would have to start all over again. It is not as bad as it was without the dircache, but I tried it with the patch and found it very frustrating. So please don't include it.

Cheers
  Roolku
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: psycho_maniac on November 02, 2005, 09:15:12 PM
one thing i like about not having the patch is that i can pick a song without looking at the screen (click in joystick, press left a million times to make 100% sure im in root, press down press right then press and hold down for a couple of seconds and then press right wa la i picked a song in my downloaded folder without looking at the screen
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: ray on November 02, 2005, 09:21:26 PM
one thing i like about not having the patch is that i can pick a song without looking at the screen (click in joystick, press left a million times to make 100% sure im in root, press down press right then press and hold down for a couple of seconds and then press right wa la i picked a song in my downloaded folder without looking at the screen
uhh... isn't there something called a Shuffle function?
the left click to WPS function is handy! it's better than pressing "PLAY".
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on November 03, 2005, 01:58:19 AM
the left click to WPS function is handy! it's better than pressing "PLAY".
Could you elaborate a little on this? Why is it better than using the Play button?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: ray on November 03, 2005, 02:19:33 AM
it is better than pressing Play because it doesn't require the little extra effort of moving your hand from the joystick to the right side of the h1x0.

i guess it's just one of the few things that i liked about the original iRiver firmware... got used to it.

after all it is all about the user's functionality right?
but i guess some users have different preferences than others... however due to the number of posts regarding the matter in favour of the left click, it seems that there are quite a number of people that agree about the left click other than me.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on November 03, 2005, 03:00:21 AM
it is better than pressing Play because it doesn't require the little extra effort of moving your hand from the joystick to the right side of the h1x0.
I agree about that. However, you will need several left clicks to get back to the wps, since it only does it in the root. That's what I don't like about it.

Quote
i guess it's just one of the few things that i liked about the original iRiver firmware... got used to it.
That's another thing. Rockbox is not iriver. You'll get used to Rockbox too, eventually.

Quote
after all it is all about the user's functionality right?
Absolutely. The Play key might not be optimal for this. For example, it might feel unintuitive to leave the WPS with navi-push and enter it with Play. It should probably be the same key.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on November 03, 2005, 03:19:57 AM
Its all down to user preference... so hopefully there will be a menu option for this sometime in the near future:

Root 2 WPS:
Left Only
Play Only
Left & Play
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: roolku on November 03, 2005, 04:13:24 AM
the left click to WPS function is handy! it's better than pressing "PLAY".

No, it is not. :p

You can press play anywhere in the directory tree, but to use the left-to-wps you have to go up all the way to the root.

Roolku
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: len0x on November 03, 2005, 04:17:24 AM
Root 2 WPS:
Left Only
Play Only
Left & Play

So many options are only needed if we are planning to use PLAY for something else as well. I think for the time being just "LEFT to WPS in root: yes/no" would do the trick.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Bagder on November 03, 2005, 06:45:33 AM
So many options are only needed if we are planning to use PLAY for something else as well. I think for the time being just "LEFT to WPS in root: yes/no" would do the trick.
Personally I think even that single option causes unnecessary featuritis. I'd rather just let users learn.

But then I think that PLAY should be used to switch to the dir browser from WPS and not a navi-key push like today. That would make PLAY more like the ON key on Archoses and the same key wouch switch back and forth between the screens.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on November 03, 2005, 06:54:10 AM
Personally I think even that single option causes unnecessary featuritis. I'd rather just let users learn.
Amen.

Quote
But then I think that PLAY should be used to switch to the dir browser from WPS and not a navi-key push like today. That would make PLAY more like the ON key on Archoses and the same key would switch back and forth between the screens.
What would we use for Pause then?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: nobby on November 03, 2005, 07:03:44 AM
that'd be hella unintuitive. the button has a play/pause symbol on it!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: len0x on November 03, 2005, 07:04:53 AM
Personally I think even that single option causes unnecessary featuritis. I'd rather just let users learn.

Learn what - using PLAY button (or whatever is assigned) instead of LEFT?
Sorry, but this sounds weird since most of users actually use this option because they can use joystick for all necessary navigation. There were some good points about why some ppl might not like it, so making this as an option with defaults to whatever most users want sounds reasonable to me.

P.S. Unless I misunderstood you and you were in favour of using LEFT to go to WPS without an option.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Bagder on November 03, 2005, 07:07:44 AM
What would we use for Pause then?

I guess the NAVI key. It would basically switch today's NAVI-press and PLAY.

That too would be more similar to how we operate on the Archos Recorder units.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Bagder on November 03, 2005, 07:11:18 AM
Learn what - using PLAY button (or whatever is assigned) instead of LEFT?
Yes

Quote
Sorry, but this sounds weird since most of users actually use this option because they can use joystick for all necessary navigation. There were some good points about why some ppl might not like it, so making this as an option with defaults to whatever most users want sounds reasonable to me.

Most users don't use this patch at all. Most users use the PLAY key since that is how Rockbox does it out-of-the-box.

And yes, I can understand the reasoning behind the request but I still rather have Rockbox work in one single consistant way rather than adding an option for such a tiny little border-case.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: len0x on November 03, 2005, 07:17:07 AM
I thought it was all about democracy and choice of ppl that is clearly indicated in the poll above. If just a couple users wanted that - it wasn't worth it indeed. I personally find a lot of options redundant in RB, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on November 03, 2005, 07:54:50 AM
I think a consistent button scheme is important. I also think we should use the Play key for playback and not WPS toggling.

However, the iriver has such silly buttons, so we are more or less forced to use them for things that they were not labelled for. Take the A-B button for example.

I think going to the WPS when Left is pressed in the root folder is a bad thing because it is annoying to end up in the WPS when you want to go to the root and push Left one time too many. This would be even worse for blind people.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: roolku on November 03, 2005, 08:28:29 AM
Another reason to leave it as it is the frequency of use. I mean how often do you go from the directory tree to the WPS? I only do it if I change my mind and abort navigation. Typically I will select a new song which brings me to the WPS anyway.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: ray on November 03, 2005, 12:16:27 PM
What would we use for Pause then?

I guess the NAVI key. It would basically switch today's NAVI-press and PLAY.
oohhh... i wouldn't like the NAVI-press as pause... the way NAVI-press is now is good.

this sounds like the most viable option:
...There were some good points about why some ppl might not like it, so making this as an option with defaults to whatever most users want sounds reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Bagder on November 03, 2005, 01:20:15 PM
oohhh... i wouldn't like the NAVI-press as pause... the way NAVI-press is now is good.

Personally I dislike how I soooo often end up in the dir browser when I try to change the volume by using the NAVI key while my iriver is in my pocket.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: len0x on November 03, 2005, 02:47:40 PM
I think a consistent button scheme is important.

One may argue that LEFT to WPS would be in fact consitent behaviour because in ALL in other cases that  I could find it returns back to WPS or radio WPS: context menus, radio presets etc...

How about having a special group in settings called "RB navigation" where all those "weird" options can reside? :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on November 03, 2005, 05:27:58 PM
One may argue that LEFT to WPS would be in fact consitent behaviour because in ALL in other cases that  I could find it returns back to WPS or radio WPS: context menus, radio presets etc...
Maybe we're getting somewhere here. It seems like most of the iriver users have a notion of WPS being the "main" screen, and keep talking of getting "back" to the WPS.

In Rockbox, the WPS is not the main screen, the browser is.

When it comes to menus, context menus, presets etc, they don't return to the WPS, they return to the parent that called them. The context menu returns to the context from which it was called, be it the browser, the WPS or whatever.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: len0x on November 03, 2005, 05:46:38 PM
That is a very good point and I agree in principle but as you said:

Quote
It seems like most of the iriver users have a notion of WPS being the "main" screen, and keep talking of getting "back" to the WPS.

So its only gonna get worse as the army of iRiver users would install RB when its officially released. So why not make it easier for newcomers and make their first experience more pleasant? It just seems unnatural trying to avoid putting in a feature that doesn't bring technical problems and makes users happy just because trying to keep RB "different". 
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on November 03, 2005, 07:19:52 PM
This is not about trying to keep Rockbox different. Rockbox has been like this for years, and that doesn't automatically change because we port to another platform. Rockbox is not about mimicking other firmwares. It's a firmware of its own.

And adding the left-to-wps does add problems, as I have described in my earlier posts. It makes blind navigation harder.

Also, I sincerely doubt that the lack of left-to-wps will make the Rockbox experience that much more unpleasant.

Still, I recall that we did some minor adjustments to Rockbox back in the early Archos days, to make it work more like the original firmware. IIRC, the "follow playlist" option was added just because of that.

I can live with an option for this, as long as it's off by default (to make it easier for blind people, that's why the Voice features are on by default). I just think it's a quite unnecessary option, we should be able to find an easier way of handling the browser<->wps toggling.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Bagder on November 04, 2005, 03:03:03 AM
I am firmly against such an option.

You'll have to drag me kicking and screaming into that mess.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on November 04, 2005, 03:31:10 AM
Besides, I haven't voted. I am against it, but not because of my "own private personal reasons".
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on November 05, 2005, 09:46:30 AM
*hshah drags Daniel Stenberg kicking and screaming through the mess*

I don't think people will mind if the option is set to "off" by default... it just makes life easier for those who don't know how to compile Rockbox for themselves, or when the code changes to that the patch no longer works.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: psycho_maniac on November 05, 2005, 01:31:16 PM
ill basically agree to anything that is optional. i didnt like the idea of this at first but if it is optional on/off then i think it would be cool but as LinusN said youd have to drag him kicking and screaming....so i dont think it will ever happen
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: hshah on November 05, 2005, 01:39:14 PM
Daniel Stenberg said that, not LinusN :p
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: psycho_maniac on November 05, 2005, 03:48:36 PM
lol whoops sorry bout that LinusN for putting words in your mouth
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on November 06, 2005, 10:25:36 PM
Gosh, whenever I see such a great percentage of people wanting an operational feature, I have to think that there is something universal there warranting consideration, be it how consumer minds work, how fingers press buttons, or whatever.  And I would think so even moreso here, given the obvious intelligence of the Rockbox crowd.

;)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Ryan on May 02, 2006, 02:15:52 AM
I think it makes sense - intuitively.

Further, it frees up the play button which could (possibly, *holds breath*) play a song without entering the WPS (just like stop).

Double play could enter the WPS.

*cringes and braces for response*.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on May 02, 2006, 03:17:52 AM
I think it would be great. I've been using rockbox for some time, and wanted to come out of the woodwork to say that this definitely has merit. 
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 02, 2006, 08:56:37 AM
It's not how Rockbox works though. Left goes back a level, leaving folders and such. Right goes forward a level, entering folders and such. When you reach the root folder of the disk, that is the _bottom_ level, and so speaking there is nowhere else to go. The WPS is a screen overlaying the root. There's also the functional aspect of how right now a blind (or sighted) user can hit left several times rapidly, and know where they're going to end up rather than having a 50/50 chance between two screens, so it serves as a quick way to get to an established point in the structure.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Davide-NYC on May 03, 2006, 03:56:58 PM
I voted for it. But only as optional and OFF by default.
I'd enable it.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on May 03, 2006, 06:06:41 PM
It's been a long time since I looked at this thread. ROCKbox for H300s has been released since I posted. ;D

But I think I can make a suggestion suitable for both H100s and H300s.

Firstly, I am not in favour of a LEFT button press "returning" to the WPS from the Browser-root. I have gotten used to the Browser being the "main" screen, and I like being able to hit LEFT multiple times to get me back to the root without having to worry about hitting it too many times. This behaviour is also consistent with other file-browsers.

However, I do not like the current behaviour of the RIGHT button. I think the keypress should be ignored if a file is selected, but should work as it does now for a folder. I have the same feelings concerning non-Browser menus. Again, this is to do with mimicking the behaviour of file-browsers in mainstream operating-systems.

Also, even though the WPS is not the main screen, I do not think the player should switch to the Browser automatically when a track is stopped. It should remain on-screen in a stopped-state.

That being said, here is a suggestion for keymapping with the iRiver H100/300s:

Browser:
NAVI/Joystick Press: Current behaviour.
LEFT: Current behaviour. Holding LEFT should perhaps return directly to root.
RIGHT: Open folder only.
UP: Current behaviour.
DOWN: Current behaviour.
RECORD: Enter WPS, whether file is playing or not.
PLAY: Play currently selected track or contents of folder. Enter WPS.
STOP: Current behaviour.

WPS:
NAVI/Joystick Press: Current behaviour.
LEFT: Current behaviour.
RIGHT: Current behaviour.
UP: Current behaviour.
DOWN: Current behaviour.
RECORD: Leave WPS.
PLAY: Current behaviour.
STOP: Stop playing track, remain in WPS.

All other menus:
NAVI/Joystick Press: Current behaviour.
LEFT: Navigate to previous level only.
RIGHT: Navigate to next level only.
UP: Current behaviour.
DOWN: Current behaviour.
RECORD: Enter WPS.
PLAY: Nothing.
STOP: Leave menu entirely.

Reasoning:
Makes WPS more accessible across all menus. Asserts the point that the WPS is not the main-screen. Assigns a common keypress to showing and hiding the WPS. Eliminates making accidental config-changes with the RIGHT button. Disabling the PLAY button in a non-Browser menu is contextually accurate. NAVI still does what it says for H300 users. PLAY and STOP do what they say when in the Browser or WPS. Behaviour of the Browser is more consistent with already existing file-browsers, like Windows Explorer, Macintosh Finder, Nautilus, and so on.

Also, although ROCKbox aims to be as streamlined as possible, I think an optional animated-mode would help in overcoming the button-layout shortcomings of the H100/300 players and give positive feedback to the user as to what they are doing and how the software is working in a given context. A fast horizontal transition (ala iPod) would be good for standard Browser and Menu folder/level navigation, whilst the WPS could be scrolled on and off the screen vertically, and from the bottom.

This gives a clear visual demonstration to the user that the Browser is the "main screen". If the WPS was the main screen, the user would expect the Browser to scroll-in from the bottom. This also gives the user a sense of "interface detachment" from the WPS when they are not viewing it, making the pressing of an otherwise non-intuitive button-assignment (RECORD) an acceptable means of entering and leaving it.

--

If you managed to read all that, thanks for taking the time. I bolded some text to break-up the paragraphs and make it easier to read. Even if you hate all the suggestions, I hope they gave some inspiration. :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: polluxx2006 on May 03, 2006, 06:23:58 PM
what about a customizable keymapping? :D
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on May 03, 2006, 06:36:33 PM
Alright then. Make that an argument for the default keymapping. ;)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: mborus on May 04, 2006, 02:21:56 AM
Just another comment:
I voted yes on the LEFT (as but an option only, not a default)

Here's what has me confused:

- When a track is playing and I press the joystick to get into the
the file browser, I need to press PLAY to return to the WPS
- When a track is playing and I hold the joystick to get into the
the playlist and other options, I need to press LEFT to exit. PLAY does nothing.

Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: stripwax on May 05, 2006, 08:02:17 AM
I agree with previous.  My 2c:   If the Browser is the 'main screen' then how come it's not possible to play music without always going to the WPS screen?   Surely that would make the WPS the main screen, since that's the screen that always appears when you play music, when you turn the device on, etc.

Or, given that the mp3 player has no 'Back' button, and that the only way to go from the WPS to the Browser is to press the Select button (which presumably must mean 'Back' if the Browser is indeed supposed to be the 'main screen'), then how come pressing Select in all the other menus doesn't also take you back to the Browser?

I'd really have a hard time justifying to a new rockbox user that the Browser is the 'main screen' given the above.

If it's possible to rationalise this behaviour, then great, but I've still yet to get a working mental map and I've been using rockbox for over a year now.

Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 05, 2006, 08:26:19 AM
Well, let's start with the WPS does NOT appear when you boot up by default. You seem to have forgotten that you enabled auto-resume, or something.

When you first boot up, if you haven't changed settings, you'll always boot into the file tree.

The select button is "Invoke". Or "Click" if you will. If you click on a file, it runs. If you click on a menu entry, it takes you to the result. If you click on the WPS, it clears to the filetree, much like some *very* temporary windows that display text and say "Click to continue" without even prompting you as to where.

Honestly, I had used Rockbox for less than 3 hours before the mental map made sense to me. I'm not saying I'm typical, but it's entirely possible that you aren't either.

Regardless, it's neither your software nor mine, and it's pointless to argue over it as it's a matter of preference either way, and the people who have control over it get to pick which preference is chosen. Being open source, you're free to make your own build.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on May 05, 2006, 09:27:56 AM
With all due respect, one of the purposes of this forum, I think, is for users to express their opinions as users, possibly to try to encourage the developers.  I realize that this firmware is open source and that one always can change it, but not being an engineer or with any amount of computer expertise, let's face it--I can't.  (I'm happy if I can patch it.   ;) )  Hopefully, the devs listen to the users as to actual user needs and preferences, and that a sympathetic dev then considers a requested feature or implementation.

I still am using patched firmware that allows me to get to the WPS by pressing the joystick left, and it is a standard and valued feature for me.  It seems a relatively simple implementation to me, from the original patch; but hey, what do I know--I studied Spanish medieval literature in college.

Part of the frustration with the player manufacturers is that they don't listen--part of the reason why users like Rockbox is because Rockbox does.  I hope it always stays that way.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 05, 2006, 09:37:56 AM
Well, normally I'm all for users suggesting things, but when a few of the original devs have come in and said they don't like the idea (I think one mentioned needing to be dragged kicking and screaming) and the topic's been discussed several times with the devs standing pretty solid, it starts to feel like it's time for people to start accepting that maybe the core devs' user interface philosophies are different than theirs, and either learn to love it or come up with a way to compensate for it as you have by running a patched build.

There are arguments against adding this code as an option that can boil down to "It makes the Archos binary larger." Basically, options that would affect all targets (as this one necessarily would) have to be weighed in as being pretty solidly valuable. This one doesn't have practical value, so much as a minor convenience / preference. Yes, it's tiny as a patch, but several tiny things do add up. You've basically got the core devs against it as an interface design issue, and practical reasons why it's not a good idea to add it even as a user configurable option.

Unfortunately even though it's an open source project, not everyone can be made happy in every way.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on May 05, 2006, 12:33:57 PM
"Hopefully, the devs listen to the users as to actual user needs and preferences, and that a sympathetic dev then considers a requested feature or implementation."
I agree completely.
This is a small feature that would make a lot of people very happy.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 05, 2006, 12:39:23 PM
So, practical reasons be damned?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on May 05, 2006, 01:02:26 PM
Any comments on my previous post? I tried to reconcile various users want of the WPS as the "main-screen" by offering a few small changes to the current implementation, hopefully making the concept of the Browser being the main-screen more intuitive.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 05, 2006, 06:30:35 PM
Well, to summarize: I personally am against scrolling or animating transitions, such as the entry of the WPS. But, it's also a good way of showing that the WPS is on top of the browser.

I'm also personally against leaving the WPS up when playback is manually stopped. I think leaving the WPS up is okay if you reach an automatic stop (end of playlist with no repeat or next-folder actions happening) but I'm not really sure where else I feel it's proper for the While Playing Screen to stay displayed when nothing is playing.

Also, I'm somewhat against making the Play button do something other than what it currently does. I feel that its current use should be extended across all menus, so at any point it can return to the playback screen and/or resume music playback.

But I do like your ideas. They're in what I see as "the right direction" (but remember, I'm one person), that being, to make it more intuitive to the user what's going on. The only differences I have with them are that I'm a grumpy young man who likes the controls just fine as they are. :)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on May 06, 2006, 01:52:01 AM
Llorean, no need to be so confrontational with your questions! 
The only practical reason you've given against this option is that it would make the code a little bigger.  I think having something a little easier to use is a practical option.  Some others feel the same way.
Regardless, thank you for your defense of the status quo, it's good to hear what you have to say.  And I'm glad that we can all agree that there should be some movement in a direction regarding the interface. 
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 06, 2006, 02:05:23 AM
But that's the thing. It's not *easier* to use. Right now, there's a button that goes back to the WPS. Your method, a different button goes back to the WPS. For many people, your method *removes* a function, because you can't use left to reliably get to the root when not looking at the screen.

Yes, I'm being confrontational. There's a purpose though, and that's to get you to fully expand upon your suggestions. You say "add a little code size." But it adds code without adding functionality, simply adding user preference. Nothing is actually gained in terms of new abilities (another way of doing the same thing is not a new ability.) That's my argument.

So, expand upon how the idea is practical, while avoiding the topic of "People like it this way."
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on May 06, 2006, 06:26:36 AM
Also remember that there is another solid argument against it. It makes it a lot harder to navigate for blind people. When you can't see the screen, you want to be able to push Left one or two times too many, to be sure that you are in the root. Then you don't want to end up in the WPS.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Falco98 on May 06, 2006, 08:17:53 PM
It seems to me that a flawless solution (and still easy enough for blind users) would be to require it to be a long-push of "left", *after* you're at root (i.e. the same long-push that gets you TO root from a deep folder won't then dump you into the WPS and/or start rewinding).  thus, someone could tap "left" enough times to be sure they're at root if they want, without worrying about dumping out into the WPS, but it would be as easy as simply holding it down for 2 seconds once you're there.  any thoughts?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 06, 2006, 08:30:59 PM
How is this different from the current method of pressing Play to get into the WPS? I mean, it's just a different button choice at this point.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on May 07, 2006, 08:03:59 AM
It's not a flawless solution because again, it's trying to fit the iRiver firmware methodology with the ROCKbox one.

I think it's starting to become more clear that the problem is less programmatic (although I stand by my last post) and more to do with public-relations. ROCKbox is NOT the iRiver firmware -- ROCKbox is not any of the firmwares it is designed to replace -- and users should have no expectation that it will work in the same way as the original software for their device. There has clearly been some difficulty is communicating this to users.

Back on the programmatic side, I strongly feel that optional animation that is on by default - as described in my previous post - would go a long way in giving users the visual feedback they need to understand that ROCKbox treats the hierarchy of its screens differently to the stock firmware. New users need to feel comfortable in their choice for ROCKbox when they first use it to assert that they have indeed made a smart decision - because they have! Any doubts about the intuitiveness of the interface can really be helped with visual feedback.

Apple are all about user-experience -- they would not have animated the iPod layout if they did not think it helped their users understand how they were navigating their music. I think such a philosophy would greatly help ROCKbox get the mainstream attention it deserves.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: RowaN on May 08, 2006, 08:09:28 AM
Wow I can't beleive this thread is still going hehe. I've been half way around the world and back since I started it. I really like Falco98's suggestion of long hold left.. that would be improving on the iriver's feature because as you said, you can get back to the root as normal without accidently going into the WPS. Must learn how to compile rockbox myself... or perform a jedi mind trick on the devs to get this implemented haha. This is the feature you are looking for.  =p
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on May 08, 2006, 08:33:30 AM
Wow I can't beleive this thread is still going hehe. I've been half way around the world and back since I started it. I really like Falco98's suggestion of long hold left.. that would be improving on the iriver's feature because as you said, you can get back to the root as normal without accidently going into the WPS. Must learn how to compile rockbox myself... or perform a jedi mind trick on the devs to get this implemented haha. This is the feature you are looking for.  =p
How is that an improvement?  That functionality exists right now.  All you're doing is adding existing functionality to a different button that could otherwise be used for something else productive.  Just one example that comes to mind:  long press of the left button goes to the folder above the present folder in the same level of the file tree hierarchy.  That would be great for navigating easily from one disc of a 2-disc set to the other.

This example is just the first thing that came to mind but it doesn't make sense to have two keys do the same thing when there are only a limited number of keys to work with.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Falco98 on May 08, 2006, 11:33:31 PM
That functionality exists right now.  All you're doing is adding existing functionality to a different button that could otherwise be used for something else productive.  Just one example that comes to mind:  long press of the left button goes to the folder above the present folder in the same level of the file tree hierarchy.  That would be great for navigating easily from one disc of a 2-disc set to the other.

The point is a simple matter of good UI: don't force the user to go way out of his way to undo something: in this case, clicking the select button goes into the file tree, but (especially if you're using it one-handed) you must change your grip completely to then hit the "play" button.  Plus, as other menus can be exited using the "left" button, it's unintuitive.

Your example ignores the main point of this thread (unless i've missed something major in what you said):  the "long left" would ONLY work from the ROOT.  And for the unfamiliar, that means you are not in ANY subfolder of ANYthing.  Currently a long-press of the Left key from a subfolder zooms you back to root, and there's no need to change this functionality, even if my suggestion were to be implemented.  The action you seem to want (going up one folder level, right?) is already accomplished by a single press of the "left" key... that or i really missed your point.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on May 08, 2006, 11:58:29 PM
You just clarified that you don't understand the UI concept of Rockbox. As you said 'other menus can be exited using the "left" button'. The furthest you can "exit" to is the root file tree. Not the WPS.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: markun on May 09, 2006, 12:43:39 AM
With so many people wanting this feature there must be at least one of you able to code and write a patch. Then everyone is happy and we don't have to talk about it anymore.

...don't force the user...

There is not a big difference between developers and users. We are all users and some of us learned how to code.

Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Falco98 on May 09, 2006, 09:51:34 AM
You just clarified that you don't understand the UI concept of Rockbox. As you said 'other menus can be exited using the "left" button'. The furthest you can "exit" to is the root file tree. Not the WPS.
so pressing "select" on the WPS "exits" the WPS to go the filetree?  that's counter-intuitive too, but easy enough that we don't mind.  the irksomeness enters into the equation when someone can access, navigate through, and perform complex operations in the filetree all with joystick operation, but then when they feel like viewing the WPS again they have to reach around to hit something completely different.  It's especially pestersome when it was just an accidental click that took us away from the WPS in the first place...

in PC user interface critiques this would be called an "unnecessary switch from mouse to keyboard"... i can do X, Y, and Z with the mouse, but then to get back to where i was before, for some reason i'm required to reach across and hit the "A" key or something.

I'll live with the filetree as being the real "main" level, that doesn't mean the WPS shouldn't be given some easier access.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on May 09, 2006, 10:21:00 AM
Falco98, do you have any feedback on this post (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=1218.msg29686#msg29686) for a slight reworking of the interface and button-layout?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Falco98 on May 09, 2006, 10:37:11 AM
Falco98, do you have any feedback on this post (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=1218.msg29686#msg29686) for a slight reworking of the interface and button-layout?
I agree immediately with your suggestion that pressing "right" not play anything but only go to to a further sublevel (and perhaps, while we're at it, into the "long-push options"?).  I'm concerned about your revision of the "play" button, just because I and so many others are used to it returning to the WPS, and having it "play selected song, playlist, or folder" would be a dramatic alteration to get used to (though if it gives you a menu to confirm that might be cool).  I'd hate to have to start using the Record button (mine feels weird too), though adding some functionality to it might make sense in some cases.  I agree with your intent to make "enter WPS" more consistent across menus, though I like to point out that in most, the "left" key is unmapped (and in root, to not interfere with multi-tapping to return to root, we could make it a "long-hold left", which currently doesn't do anything anyway).
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on May 09, 2006, 11:02:27 AM
the irksomeness enters into the equation when someone can access, navigate through, and perform complex operations in the filetree all with joystick operation, but then when they feel like viewing the WPS again they have to reach around to hit something completely different.
Remember that navigation decisions like this need to apply to more than one platform.  Of the three Rockbox platforms that I own, what you just said is true of the H100 platform (although I've never found it to be a problem), but not of the H300 series or the iPod.  On the H300, the PLAY button is right next to the LEFT button, so it's really no harder to hit one than the other.  On the iPod, the PLAY button is at the button of the scroll wheel.  Since the scroll wheel doesn't give as much tactile feedback as either the H100's joystick or the H300s buttons, I would prefer that the LEFT button not return to the WPS.   As Llorean has noted, the present system is also much better for blind users, and the voice interface makes Rockbox hugely popular for the blind.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on May 09, 2006, 11:07:58 AM
Falco98 > Thanks for the feedback!

My reason for having the Play button remapped is for two reasons: The first is consistency between the Browser and the WPS - Play does what it says. The second is pure selfish convenience on my part as the user of an H300 - The Record button is closer to my thumb than the Play button, so as a right-handed user it would be very easy for me to toggle the WPS with Record. Am I right to assume that the Record button is also close to the right-hand thumb for an H100 user, albeit at the side of the device?

I have also got used to the Record button doing nothing, and I usually use it to just turn on the backlight. But I think the existing option "Keypress effects when backlight is off" overcomes this - you can just use any button to turn on the backlight when it is off. I think this is also the default bahaviour since the feature was implemented. A long-press of the Record button would be great to jump straight to the recording screen, or perhaps Play + Record together like how the old tape-recorders functioned.

Concerning the "left key being unmapped", any action mapped to a directional key I feel should be intuitive to the overall interface concept. Since ROCKbox is removed from the iRiver firmware's concept of the WPS being the main-screen, the Left key is no longer intuitive as a device with which to "return" to anything other than the root-folder when in the Browser, because that's how all file-browsers behave. It makes sense for iRiver, it doesn't make sense for ROCKbox.

A long-press of Left I think would be better suited to returning directly to the root-folder.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on May 09, 2006, 11:22:39 AM
Mr. Brownstone, your proposal is well-thought out, and there is much about it that makes sense, but there is a fatal flaw:  not all supported platforms have a RECORD button.   IMO, this means that the RECORD button can be used for as a shortcut for some other function that can also be accessed from the menus (e.g., as a shortcut to the recording menu, or to the radio), but not for a core function like accessing the WPS.

As for the effect of the RIGHT button on an individual file, I think that this is the perfect opportunity for the 1-click "add to current playlist" function that has been so often requested.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on May 09, 2006, 11:39:17 AM
Febs > I agree. My solution is biased towards the H100 and H300. I also agree with the ROCKbox ideology of having similar functionality across all platforms, but I do not agree that functionality should be identical, especially when it compromises the usability of a particular platform.

The only solution I can see in such a case is to cater to each platform individually after deciding on a common-ground of basic functionality. I think it is quite possible for ROCKbox to have such common functionality across all platforms, but still cater to individual devices when needed.

I also like your for "add to current playlist" for the Right button, but that it should be optional. ;D
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on May 09, 2006, 12:59:37 PM
Let's agree to disagree for the time being on whether the usability of the H100 and H300 platforms is compromised ...

I find moving back and forth between the iriver and iPod platforms right now to be very easy.  The core functionality of the navigation of both units is the same, so once you learn how to access features mapped to buttons on the iriver platform that don't exist on the iPod platform.  For example, when I first picked up the iPod, I had to learn that a long press of the PLAY button is equivalent to STOP.  Likewise, I had to learn that the A-B button on the iriver is equivalent to the MENU button on the iPod.  After taking about 10 seconds to learn those buttons, however, navigating Rockbox on the iPod was easy.

If you were to re-map the buttons on the iriver platforms so that basic principles of Rockbox navigation varied from platform to platform, it would compromise the usability of Rockbox for me, for many of the developers, and for anyone who switches from one Rockbox platform to another--and this last category can be expected to grow as Rockbox is ported to more and more platforms.  Moreover, I would expect that there would be significant implications with respect to the complexity and size of the code of the buttons on one plaform did something different than the equivalent button on another platform.

As I indicating in my last post, I agree with many of the design philosophies that you express in your proposal.  For example, the button that invokes the WPS from the File Browser should also invoke it from the menu system.  However, I disagree that you can assign that functionality to a button that doesn't exist on some supported platforms.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: saab_rider on June 22, 2006, 08:05:51 AM
I see that this thread has been dead for a while, but I just found it.

Personally, I use left to exit a folder, and right to enter a folder/select a file.

So using left to go all the way back to the WPS changes the way I navigate.

I would've been happy if Play takes you back to the WPS, but other people have good points regarding how Play and Stop's functions should stay the same no matter where you are.

How about a long press of left to go back to the WPS? this way, you avoid using the record button, the Play/stop can still be used for their original function, and left still goes out of a directory...

I apologise if this has already been suggested, but this thread is 9 pages long!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on June 22, 2006, 08:50:31 AM
I have definitely seen that suggestion made before.  Just curious though, in what what is this better than having a single press of the Play button invoke the WPS from just about anywhere in Rockbox?

(The reason I am curious is because there is a patch on the patchtracker that gives the Play button the "go to WPS" functionality from just about anywhere, and this patch will likely be committed to CVS as soon as someone tests it on Archos platforms.)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: saab_rider on June 22, 2006, 12:54:05 PM
Hey febs.

Actually that is/was my prefrence as well. That was what I wanted up till I read some of the posts here.

The reason I beleive it wouldn't be a good idea to use play to go back to WPS is to keep it as the play/pause button regardless of your location in Rockbox.

So if you're in the file browser, menu, or playlist, click play pauses playback if you're already playing. Which makes sense to me (even though it wasn't what I oriignaly wanted).

I can live with play going to WPS though. But I don't want to loose left for going up a directory.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on June 22, 2006, 03:19:17 PM
Play-to-WPS seems better, since if music isn't playing that's what it does in filetree (resuming playback if it's not active.) Besides, with that functionality a user can always pause playback by a mere two presses of play anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Crasus on June 22, 2006, 07:42:01 PM
... there is a patch on the patchtracker that gives the Play button the "go to WPS" functionality from just about anywhere, and this patch will likely be committed to CVS as soon as someone tests it on Archos platforms.

Hi. I tried finding the patch referenced above but had no luck. Could somone point me in the right direction?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Rincewind on June 23, 2006, 10:45:41 AM
... there is a patch on the patchtracker that gives the Play button the "go to WPS" functionality from just about anywhere, and this patch will likely be committed to CVS as soon as someone tests it on Archos platforms.

Hi. I tried finding the patch referenced above but had no luck. Could somone point me in the right direction?

here you go:
http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/5294
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on July 23, 2006, 01:43:43 PM
I'm trying to find a patch that would allow me to access the wps by pressing left in the root menu.  I downloaded the patch linusn created on page 4 of this thread, but when I try to use the patch it gives me an error about the tree.c in the vmware window.  When i load up the patched firmware, it does not work.
TIA for help.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on July 23, 2006, 07:22:48 PM
that has been a wonderful patch, and I really wish it had been accepted into the software--a small thing that is wonderful.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on July 24, 2006, 02:02:34 AM
that has been a wonderful patch, and I really wish it had been accepted into the software--a small thing that is wonderful.
That "wonderful" thing is a nightmare for blind people. You try to go to the root, and click Left one time too many, and suddenly you're back in the WPS.

BTW, here is an updated patch:


[attachment deleted by admin, too old]
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on July 24, 2006, 01:00:26 PM
Thanks, and an interesting point for accessability.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: psycho_maniac on July 24, 2006, 03:00:06 PM
think this will ever get commited to cvs? this would be a good patch if it were an option in the menu. so then blind people wont go to the wps on accident.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on July 24, 2006, 03:00:43 PM
Out of curiosity, what makes "Left" easier to press than "Play"?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on July 24, 2006, 04:16:24 PM
... especially considering that 'play' works from anywhere in the file browser, while 'left' works from only one specific screen.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on July 24, 2006, 05:26:37 PM
Ya' know, I keep on wondering that myself, given the reasons you note above.  Maybe because the select button is easily reach in front rather than the play button on the side, which is slightly harder to get to?  Maybe because still, despite how I know Rockbox is set up, it feels like going all the way to the "beginning" is to the WPS and not the file listing (perhaps because for me as a user, the primary purpose of the player is to hear music, and that's what the WPS reflects)?

But there definitely is something psychological going on there, at least for me (at least at times), it seems.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on July 24, 2006, 06:49:17 PM
The Play button is on the side only for the H100 platform and maybe the X5.  The H300, all ipods and all Archos platforms have the buttons on the front, so this is a non-issue.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on July 24, 2006, 07:42:22 PM
Um, a non-issue for those other players and their users, right?  ;)

I think that different architectures often suggest different solution abilities.

And I wonder if there's still a psychological thing going on, with those other players and their users as well.  Again, and I don't know why, pressing left to get back to the WPS just feels right for some reason.  I think there has to be a reason why almost 2/3rds of the people in the poll above feel that way.  (Did iRiver do it that way?  I can't even recall at this point.  Maybe we've been brainwashed.)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on July 24, 2006, 07:45:50 PM
I spend most of the time just looking at the wps.  It feels like the main screen for me as well.  Choosing a song, changing options, etc, to me it feels like it should all go back to the WPS afterwards.
Thank you for the updated patch!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on July 24, 2006, 07:46:36 PM
Your primary reasoning for liking the patch seems to be "My preconception is that the WPS is the base screen, and so should be where I return to."

Now I ask you: If it's Rockbox's goal to be a player in which it is NOT the base screen, why is this patch a good idea? Assume for the moment that this is not a debate over what should be the base screen, but rather just what the functionality of the button should be.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on July 24, 2006, 07:48:55 PM
To me this patch feels like it really is about prioritizing the various screens.  I feel like the screens should all go back to the wps screen.  This patch allows me to imagine that is so. 
I'm sure that rockbox's goal is to play music.  To me, this feels like it is supporting that goal.  I'm not sure the goal is to have the filetree be the primary focus.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on July 24, 2006, 07:56:21 PM
It's a filetree based music player though. The WPS only _exists_ when music is playing. You can't really do anything from it but control the flow of the current playlist. It's only useful when music is playing, so there is a condition where the WPS does not exist: When music is stopped.

There is no condition when the filetree does not exist, so it makes more sense for it to exist below the level of the WPS, because the WPS is invoked from within either the Filetree. The filetree makes it appear, so by definition it exists on top of the filetree.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on July 24, 2006, 07:58:44 PM
Ah, I understand now.  Thanks for being patient and explaining the status quo.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on July 24, 2006, 07:59:33 PM
Your primary reasoning for liking the patch seems to be "My preconception is that the WPS is the base screen, and so should be where I return to."

Now I ask you: If it's Rockbox's goal to be a player in which it is NOT the base screen, why is this patch a good idea? Assume for the moment that this is not a debate over what should be the base screen, but rather just what the functionality of the button should be.

Llorean, I think I understand what you are saying and in that paradigm, it doesn't really make sense to have the left-to-WPS patch/function.  But isn't that somewhat pitting the system architecture against user's minds and what they seem to feel, for whatever the reason (or, at least what a substantial number of people seem to feel)?  

The best reasons I have heard thus far to countermand this "instinct" (if that's what it is) are accessibility issues for those who have visual limitations; and standardization among players.  But, I don't know that other non H-1xx users don't appreciate the patch (I don't know either way, if they would find it useful), and I don't know if the patch would complicate matters (however that's determined, philosophically or physically) such as to outweigh implementation as an option (either specific to the H-1xx players--I don't even know if that is an option--or generally).

edit:  Or maybe this all is bullsh*t and other things need to be turned to, and minds adjusted.  And it gives people patching experience!   ;)  Curious, though, that so many people feel this way about the patch--something is going on here.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on July 24, 2006, 08:10:13 PM
Well, a few points.
1) On accessibility, it is possible that it could be made option if it defaulted to off, but this increases code size frivolously which is exceptionally bad for the Archoses.
2) All targets need to function the same way when the hardware allows. Since the hardware allows, if it were to be implemented as an option, it would need to be on many, actively harming the Archos port in theory.

The H100 didn't have a left to enter WPS functionality in the root OS, but it did start you at the WPS screen instead of the song listing. The iPod starts you in the menu. The Archos and iAudios I honestly couldn't say, nor the H300.

I think that if you ran this poll in the general discussion, and figured out some way to force people to read the arguments both for and against implementing it, you would see a much different ratio of votes. I'm not saying that you'd end up with a majority for it not being implemented, but I think that it's skewed because of its location, and because of the fact that many people voted without knowing the harm the patch would _have_ to cause, either by harming the Archos port, harming blind users (as making it not an option would then probably not increase code size, or if so much less) or harming the unification of player control schemes.

That being said, Rockbox isn't a democracy, so whether the majority want this feature or not, there's a small group of people who get the final say in what features become 'official,' so saying "look, 2/3 of the people here want it" isn't necessarily a very strong argument at all, anyway.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on July 24, 2006, 08:22:17 PM
All those points are understood and, as I said, harm to anything is a determining point (I only have an iRiver H-1xx and so can't speak to the other players).  And bloat also has to be considered--I don't know how much this patch could bullox things with bloat or with potential future complications (even though in and of itself, it is a small patch--who knows what the ripple could result in downstream).

I only mention the 2/3rds point not as a "voting issue" (you're right--the devs win!  ;)  and there are the other issues noted above some of which people likely weren't aware of) but as an indication that something real seems to be going on here for a substantial group of people--I don't know if it's finger laziness, training by the iRiver firmware, or something psychological (what I suspect)--I find that fascinating from a user/ergonomics perspective.

And do Hebrew users want to press right?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on July 24, 2006, 08:27:46 PM
The 'bloat' issue isn't much. It would likely be a VERY small amount of code added. But the question comes "Is that code even worth it, since there's already a perfectly good return-to-wps button that you wouldn't be getting rid of?"

But yeah, I agree in thinking that it's almost definitely psychological. People are used to left being "go back a level" and so if they think of the WPS as the homescreen (as the H100 firmware trains you to do) even with a new firmware, the expectation is that you'll eventually end up at the WPS if you keep hitting left.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on July 24, 2006, 08:49:24 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I honestly believe that there would be a drastic change in the results of that poll if patch 5294 were implemented.  Part of the reason that the interface in its current form sometimes feels unintuitive is because play only calls the WPS from certain places in Rockbox (i.e., the File Browser) and not from other places (i.e., the menu system).  With patch 5294, the Play button calls the WPS from just about anywhere in Rockbox.  This completely unifies the feel of Rockbox navigation.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on July 24, 2006, 08:50:07 PM
I agree.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: yngwi on July 25, 2006, 12:56:19 AM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I honestly believe that there would be a drastic change in the results of that poll if patch 5294 were implemented.  Part of the reason that the interface in its current form sometimes feels unintuitive is because play only calls the WPS from certain places in Rockbox (i.e., the File Browser) and not from other places (i.e., the menu system).  With patch 5294, the Play button calls the WPS from just about anywhere in Rockbox.  This completely unifies the feel of Rockbox navigation.

i for my part would definitely like to see this patch included...
as for the left to wps issue: it makes browsing significantly harder for me because i always accidently press left one time to much, and I'm not even blind...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: dunno on July 25, 2006, 09:10:14 AM
I think patch 5924 is a good idea.

I dont like the left to wps idea, overshooting root happens frequently and is irratating.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: nieroster on July 26, 2006, 08:22:25 AM
In fact navigaiton in Rockbox is quite unintuitive:

form the filebrowser you change to WPS by pressing Play
from other menus you return to the WPS with Stop
from a plugin you return to the WPS by pressing Stop... why not always use the same button?

Another issue:
Sometimes when I return from a line-out session I forget to reduce volume to a reasonable value for use with earpads. Pressing Stop prevents me from setting the volume. I have to unplug the earpads, press play, reduce the volume...Why not make the WPS the default screen (not the filebrowser!) just like in the old iRiver Software? Volume would be accessible all the time, not only when playing.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on July 26, 2006, 08:33:59 AM
In fact navigaiton in Rockbox is quite unintuitive:

form the filebrowser you change to WPS by pressing Play
from other menus you return to the WPS with Stop
from a plugin you return to the WPS by pressing Stop... why not always use the same button?
The menus return to the screen from where they were called. You return from a menu by pressing Stop (or Left).

Thus, if you call a menu from the WPS, you press Stop to leave the menu and go back to the WPS. The same goes if you open the menu from the browser.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on July 26, 2006, 09:10:23 AM
Sometimes when I return from a line-out session I forget to reduce volume to a reasonable value for use with earpads. Pressing Stop prevents me from setting the volume. I have to unplug the earpads, press play, reduce the volume...Why not make the WPS the default screen (not the filebrowser!) just like in the old iRiver Software? Volume would be accessible all the time, not only when playing.
Even if the WPS were the default screen, volume would still not be accessible from within the menu system or the file browser.  On some platforms, there are simply not enough buttons to dedicate buttons exclusively to controlling volume.

In any event, an easy solution to your problem would be to create a .cfg file that adjusts the volume to your preferred level for headphone listening.  Name this something like 1volume -20.cfg and save it in your file browser.  It should then be right at the top of your file browser list when you turn your player on, and you can adjust your volume with a single click.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: pabouk on July 26, 2006, 10:33:29 AM
Even if the WPS were the default screen, volume would still not be accessible from within the menu system or the file browser.  On some platforms, there are simply not enough buttons to dedicate buttons exclusively to controlling volume.
I think you missed the point. IMHO nieroster complained about the unability to get to the WPS without starting a playback (to just set the volume). He did not mention the theoretical possibility to set the volume from the file browser.

Although I prefer the file browser to be the main screen I consider nieroster's remark to be very reasonable. Anyway your solution should be sufficient :D
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on July 26, 2006, 06:37:43 PM
You can also adjust the volume from the menus. I believe it's in the sound settings menu...
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Massa on July 30, 2006, 07:15:56 AM
I also vote for inclusion of patch 5294!

And I don't think it's a good idea to change the behaviour of left press at the root directory!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mr. Brownstone on July 31, 2006, 01:09:03 PM
It's a good patch, and I use it.

I'd sooner see the whole interface redesigned than have LEFT go to the WPS, though. :P
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on August 04, 2006, 09:47:58 AM
The patch (5294) would be nice, for consistency.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rossy! on September 05, 2006, 05:44:45 AM
Id love for the entire key configuration to be editable from a text file. Then people could choose the buttons that feel best.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: rdtyphn on September 09, 2006, 11:48:48 AM
Sorry to be a bother, but the Left2root patch Linus remade no longer works.  If someone could point me to a version that works I would be very grateful.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: stuffedspacedog on September 28, 2006, 10:34:03 AM
Here you go:

http://www.logic.at/people/preining/iriver/patches/left-go-to-wps-np.patch
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on October 05, 2006, 11:08:00 AM
Many thanks for the update!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: stuffedspacedog on October 15, 2006, 10:15:09 AM
I have used this patch since it was introduced, and it makes a huge difference to usability on the H100, particularly when using the joystick remote, I can't imagine using Rockbox without it.

However I accept that the usability of the patch is very much dependent on button layout on each player, so don't believe it should go into CVS.

I only use two patches, this one, and the "more responsive skip" patch (FS#6052), plus a few modifications to the native bitmaps.

Latest update (from Norbusan's custom build for the H300):

http://www.logic.at/people/preining/iriver/patches/left-go-to-wps-np.patch

Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on October 15, 2006, 10:33:27 AM
I still don't really understand how "Left" is any more usable than "Play" for getting to the WPS from the file root.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Yotto on October 15, 2006, 05:50:34 PM
I would call it *less* usable, as an accidental 2 presses of "Play" from the root will pause your audio, while two accidental presses of "left" (at least on an iPod) will restart your track from the start, likely without letting you see where it was.  Sorry, man, just search through that 2-hour-long podcast for where you were.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: stuffedspacedog on October 16, 2006, 12:32:57 AM

I still don't really understand how "Left" is any more usable than "Play" for getting to the WPS from the file root.

Because on the joystick remote, "play" involves pushing down a multi function rocker switch, and it's easy to mess up.  Generally I find "Left" more usable because it means all regular functions can be performed using only the joystick, either on the remote or the main player.  For me that makes operating the H100 cleaner and simpler.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mmmm on October 17, 2006, 03:07:12 AM
I still don't really understand how "Left" is any more usable than "Play" for getting to the WPS from the file root.
I think the reason left is preferred to play by some users is that people think of the WPS as being the main screen and that you exit the file browser to get to the WPS. The left button is the 'go back' button so when you get to the root, if you press left it should go back to the WPS. Whereas the play button is for playing a track or turning on the player, it doesn't naturally feel like it should exit the file browser.

If you think of the structure like this, even though it is incorrect, the left button makes sense.
But of course, it is wrong :D
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Paul Slocum on October 17, 2006, 04:40:31 PM
I think that pressing left from the root should go to a main menu for the unit that includes "Radio", "Record", "File Browser", "Settings" etc.  And then another left from there returns to the WPS.  This gives one level of padding again accidentally jumping from the root to the WPS, and makes the overall UI structure a tree, which is easier for novice users to understand and navigate.  

The inconsistent buttons and haphazard UI nagivation is iRiver is in serious need of improvement.  I'm glad to see some work towards improving this lately.

The problem of accidentally jumping to the WPS and resetting the track to the beginning can be avoided by putting a short delay before allowing the joystick to be used to reset tracks after returning to the WPS in this manner.  There are probably other areas where the UI can use some kind of tricky polishing like this.

-paul
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: goffa on October 24, 2006, 10:36:37 AM
I've been using Mmmm's build on my h140 for a while now. I have to say, after using it, he's applied the right patches.  The player is infinitely more usable.

Left to wps from root has become one of my most used features. That, and the one button queuing.

I'd like to see both of these applied to the default rockbox cvs builds. Left to WPS could be toggleable so it wouldn't affect the users who do not wish to utilize the feature.  That should satisfy both the anti- and pro- camps.

That's my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on October 24, 2006, 10:41:10 AM
You forget the "Not wasting binary size" camp.

*All* the feature does is adds an additional button to do something that can already be done from that screen. I can't imagine justifying increasing the binary size for that, evne as toggleable. Consider that they wouldn't even justify the binary size incrase for a choice between % and dB volume in the status bar after they changed.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: goffa on October 25, 2006, 01:02:57 AM
I understand keeping rockbox trim and lean. However, i find a feature such as left to wps, or the instant queuing quite useful.    There are a great number of features that i will never use included in rockbox already.  Yes, it is true that you can click 3 times every time you want to add a song instead of one, just doesn't seem... efficient.

Do i think that they should be removed? Absolutely not. Example. I can't stand crossfade, there is much more code involved with crossfade than with these two minor patches  (minor in size, not functionality).  However, i do know that many people utilize this feature, just like i know that many people would use left to wps and the instant queuing. The patches are out, they work, they aren't huge.  

This player would cease to function if we removed everything that someone didn't find useful.  

I wouldn't use the % and dB toggle myself, but i'm not opposed to that either. There has to be a balance between functionality and trim code.  

I only suggest a toggle as a compromise. My TRUE feeling is that one click queuing should be a default action. I know that that is a MUCH tougher sell than the toggle. (Maybe i don't KNOW that, but i assume that.) Plus, you get arguments from people who like it the way it is.  You get the common "why should everyone change for you" debate, which i was hoping to avoid. Instead, i constantly run into the keep code clean at the cost of function argument.  Catch 22 i guess.

In the end, i think it's funny to argue about binary size when there are talking menus built into that same binary. Yet, we can't include another menu option because that would bloat the code. Kind of takes the logic out of the "not wasting binary size" camp if you  ask me. I guess the ones in that camp are the ones that ultimately decide the direction rockbox goes. In all actuality, i guess its their right, they built the player so they can include as much or as little as they want.  

In the end of the day, i think the player should mold to you, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Yotto on October 25, 2006, 03:14:48 AM
I won't take up any of your points, because in spirit I agree with them (Especially about crossfade.  Yuck) but as to the talking menus, Rockbox has a fairly large (compared to other MP3 firmwares) blind user base.  If you remove the speech support, you essentially brick their players.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: goffa on October 25, 2006, 08:30:26 AM
I was merely using voice as an example. Stating that the voice feature is huge in size. I don't think it should be removed just because i don't use it.

But, by the same token its hard to preach "small binary size" when the above 2 mentioned features (left to wps, click action) don't really hinder performance or comparatively increase binary size.

I also understand that mountains are made of single grains of dirt. Meaning that you cant include EVERYTHING. By the same token, I think we can add a lot of  "single grains of dirt" before we reach mountain sized proportions or even start to affect performance.



P.S. If i had my way, voice would be a compile time option (like a yes to include /no to exclude). I realize that implementing that would require a lot of unnecessary work. So, I'm suggesting that the developers don't waste their time/energy on that. Since, because it is a menu option, i can disable the feature and not affect performance. The only difference is binary size, so the effort is not really worth the gain.





Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on October 25, 2006, 10:22:12 AM
The problem is, we're *already* at mountain size, as many of you seem to forget.

It is official that the Rockbox binary is too big (it won't fit in the space constrained areas that we were trying to avoid making it too big for) so now we need to DECREASE it's size, but neatening up code and such.

And unfortunately you picked the wrong feature of the two to defend. I'm in favour of one-button queue and actually stated my suggestion that it be the default action for a short tap of Rec while in WPS.

My last post was ONLY against left-to-wps because that can ALREADY be done with a SINGLE button press from the very same screen you'd press left to get to WPS. I'm sorry if you have to move your thumb 3/4 inches more, but I think not wasting binary size is worth that small of an inconvenience when the binary is already too big, and that is definitely a grain of sand our mountain can live without.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: goffa on October 25, 2006, 10:51:20 AM
I guess its not REQUIRED to have left to wps, however, it does seem more natural.

Also, the code size only increases by literally  2 lines. (If you take out the comments, and don't make it toggleable)

In the grand scheme, we aren't going to gain much by leaving it out. Some users will gain a lot by having it in though.

I doubt any deciding body will be convinced by my argument, so i'll just stand in my position that it should be included and leave it at that.

Also, given the statistics that 71% of people polled wouldn't mind or would enjoy it. And 10% Don't really care. My math says that the vote is  strikingly in favor of having it included. 80/20
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: AlexP on October 25, 2006, 02:01:55 PM
The argument that has been used before and is to my mind persuasive is blind users.

It is much easier if you can't see the screen to press left a few times knowing you will end up in root, and can then navigate through the menu structure you can remember.  With left to WPS, one more click means you have to restart the whole procedure.

I would much rather have people move their thumb slightly (a minor inconvenience), than mess up navigation for blind users (a huge inconvenience).
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on October 25, 2006, 02:26:53 PM
Yes, if it is included it HAS to be an option, and it HAS to be off by default. This is, in my mind, not negotiable due to our blind users.

So when being considered you must consider the addition of it as an option.

As well, when you're already too large, even two lines of code can seem like too much if it's a feature only in the sense that it permits people to be slightly more lazy.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on October 30, 2006, 01:01:51 PM
Laziness is human nature and, in fact, is something that should be taken into acccount with player ergonomics, IMHO.

;)

Having said that, if the feature has other impediments that are deemed too costly, such as code size or issues for some users, that of course should affect consideration.

At times I wish that features could be toggled on or off in the compile process.  For example, I don't use crossfade, and would much rather have left-to-WPS (I don't know why, but my hands just tend to use it instinctually).  But I can forsee many issues with this and don't offer it as a practical solution.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: scorche on October 30, 2006, 05:39:18 PM
You can do that yourself by #ifdefing out all of the parts of the code that pertains to that option.  And yes, there are many issues with this.  No issues for your own copy of the source, but if it were to be committed like that.  Removing features for targets is never a good thing.

That said, there is one feature that you can disable and not compile without any side effects: Tagcache.  But that is about it with the CVS source code.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Jonny on December 22, 2006, 05:31:45 AM
Just a quick suggestion, I don't know whether or not it has been suggested before.
How about modifying the patch so that holding left will scroll to to root and stop there. and an extra left press is then required to go to the WPS. Kind of like how the scrolling in directories works at the moment, the scrolling stops at the last file of the directory and en extra press is required to begin cycling again.
I for one like to hold left when in a directory to return to the root to access playlists or pictures or to reboot. This is now impossible. I would have thought this would also simplify use for blind users since by holding left they will know that they are in the root directory.
This would likely take up more code I suppose but I agree wth Llorean thta the left to WPS must be a togglable option.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: fml2 on January 19, 2007, 05:53:41 AM

How about modifying the patch so that holding left will scroll to to root and stop there. and an extra left press is then required to go to the WPS. Kind of like how the scrolling in directories works at the moment


This is exactly the way I would expect it to work (if it's enabled). And if it gets integrated into the official build of course :-)
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on January 19, 2007, 10:47:02 AM
Again: Why do their need to be *two* buttons that go from the filetree root to the WPS?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: fml2 on January 22, 2007, 02:15:33 AM

Again: Why do their need to be *two* buttons that go from the filetree root to the WPS?


Llorean, I'm probably going to say something that's been said many times (also in this thread) but it's just more convenient to some users on some players. For example, on H120 most of the actions are taken using the joystick. You listen to a song, you want to listen to another. What do you do? Press the joystick (this shows the file browser), you navigate to the other folder and then you decide to stay with the song currenly playing. You can, of course, just press PLAY (and that would be just one press) but you have to use another finger. So some people (me probably included) would compromise the number of key presses for the fact that they can use the same finger (thumb). It's just a matter of preference. It has no rational explanation.

Some users buy white iPods and some get black? Why? Because they prefer it that way. No more, no less.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on January 22, 2007, 03:53:33 AM
If it's *just* a matter of idle preference, why do people think Left-to-WPS should go in despite all the actual objections to it? If it were as simple as preference, you'd think people would simply say "Ah well, there are very strong reasons against it, or at least the core devs consider them very strong, and there's a patch for us anyway, so we'll stop pestering them about it."

I mean, you guys have been going on about this patch for ages, despite the core developers telling you very, very clearly why they do not want this feature, and you never really address their concerns instead simply saying "We prefer it this way."

That's why I asked for a reason. I thought: Hey, someone resurrected the long decided issue YET AGAIN, maybe they actually have a real reason.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: fml2 on January 22, 2007, 04:10:10 AM

That's why I asked for a reason. I thought: Hey, someone resurrected the long decided issue YET AGAIN, maybe they actually have a real reason.


Well, for those users (and on those players) this is a reason. I think this depends on the DAP. On some devices, all buttons are accessible equally easy. But on some (e.g. H120) they are not. You have to use another finger. And to do that, you have to place the dap in another way in your hand. And if you're not careful enough you could even drop the dap. Isn't that a reason?

I agree that this feature might not be necessary on all devices. But on some it would.

There is another aspect (of a psychological nature) in this issue IMHO. It's been discussed long and the answer of the devs has always been the same, i.e. "we don't want/need it." If they say now "ok, we might still need it", wouldn't that be sort of like of defamation or proving one having been stubborn? OTOH if that's just a question of a rational reason, isn't the one I named in this post strong enough (not letting the DAP fall down)?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on January 22, 2007, 04:15:43 AM
Firstly I have an H120. It was my first Rockboxable DAP, and I've never felt that the play button was an inconvenience. So, it's personal preference, and not merely an aspect of DAP design, so please don't try to play that card. I have no problem reaching the play button with the index finger on my right hand while using the thumb to navigate the stick. Or, if using my left hand it requires a slight shift behind the player but my index finger still wraps around without problem. So while it is still an issue of little more than personal preference for this feature versus practical concerns on the case of the core developers.

Second, you haven't addressed the Core Devs' primary concerns. In fact, you just showed that you don't even know what they are. "we don't want/need it." is not the most commonly stated reason by the core devs.

As I said, I would like to see a NEW argument in favour of this, but repeating things that have already been said is just going to irritate those who've said it will not happen any more. Your argument is the same "It's convenient." So what? "It's convenient" vs "It's redundant, can add hassle for blind users, and further increases an already increasingly oversized binary" makes the choice pretty easy.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: fml2 on January 22, 2007, 04:34:01 AM
I have no problem reaching the play button with the index finger on my right hand while using the thumb to navigate the stick.

Well, other people might have other experience.

Quote
So what? "It's convenient" vs "It's redundant, can add hassle for blind users, and further increases an already increasingly oversized binary" makes the choice pretty easy.

Well, RB is all about convenience, no? And the binary size is an issue only for a minority of devices. On that devices, the feature could be #deffed out. (I also mean the version for H120 which is booted from EEPROM or smth. -- the binary size there is also limited.) And if it would require an extra LEFT press for going from the file browser to WPS (see my post a couple of posts before) that wouldn't also confuse visually impaired users.

Having said this I'd like to stress that all I can do (and do!) is humbly ask for a feature or tell my opinion. Ant that I've been and am a grateful RB user.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on January 22, 2007, 04:42:12 AM
Firstly, "smth" is not a real word. Follow the forum rules.

Secondly, Rockbox should never work differently on multiple targets unless there's an exceptionally good reason to. The fact that people want a slightly more convenient button press hardly qualifies. As for the "They have to already be in the root" issue: What if a blind user IS already in the root, but not aware of it. Right now left will reliably take you to the same place whether you hold it, or just tap it many many times. With your method, it becomes vastly less consistent and reliable.

Rockbox is not "all about convenience." It's mostly about a powerful cross-hardware MP3 player firmware. And even if it were about convenience, your feature is *vastly* more inconvenient for some users than I imagine a slight shift for a button press is for you. Even I rely on the root being the final location from left presses.

As I said: Give me *new* reasons, rather than rehashing the old ones.

I'm sorely tempted to simply lock this thread with a statement that the idea is dead until such time as someone can actually address it from a new angle. You've not actually addressed any of the old objections, you've just said that in your opinion they don't matter.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on January 22, 2007, 04:46:17 AM
I can agree with the convenience argument on the H100 series. I wouldn't care all that much if we did add that feature.

The main arguments against it would be

1) It is not good for blind navigation (solved by making it a non-default setting)

2) It breaks the overall design of the GUI hierarchy (Left means "leave this level", while the browser actually it the top level)

3) It would waste code space. (albeit very little)

as for (2), we are discussing changing the hierarchy to be more flat. Then the navigation will be different.

I'm undecided about this...

just my $0.02
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: fml2 on January 22, 2007, 04:56:05 AM
Firstly, "smth" is not a real word. Follow the forum rules.


Sorry for that.

Quote
What if a blind user IS already in the root, but not aware of it. Right now left will reliably take you to the same place whether you hold it, or just tap it many many times. With your method, it becomes vastly less consistent and reliable.


Those who couldn't tolerate non-reliability in this (e.g. blind users) would just disable the feature (as Linus said). Which would disabled by default anyway.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on January 22, 2007, 05:02:52 AM
I guess I just don't understand why people see "convenience" being so much more important than consistency.

It's only really useful for *some* people, and only on a *few* of the targets, and yet you act like the feature is actually somehow important enough that either the cross-platform consistency should be sacrificed, or decrease the odds of getting Rombox back into shape.

Even if it's made optional, and everyone agrees on a proper default action for when music isn't playing (Resume, like Play, or do nothing since the WPS doesn't exist while music is stopped?) and even if the whole hierarchy of Rockbox is redesigned to allow for the concept, those still need to be addressed clearly.

The Archos Recorder is a bit of an old target, but while it's still supported, every effort should be made to keep it in line with the rest of Rockbox. And even on targets where binary size isn't strictly limited, it's still important in terms of audio buffer, so features should still be considered on a "are they worth the size they add" basis.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: LinusN on January 22, 2007, 05:07:45 AM
I guess only the developers and those who own several DAPs care about cross-platform consistency.

As for Rombox, I think only (the fewer and fewer) owners of the old Archos care about that as well.

That would explain why those arguments don't work on the H100 crowd.

Still, I think I prefer a consistent UI than a few odd shortcuts for "convenience".
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on January 22, 2007, 05:11:45 AM
To me the consistent UI thing is more important as well. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the HWCodec platforms were branched, Rombox was gotten to work with the current featurset (if possible) and then maintained with mostly bugfixes.

But on many platforms (iPods, Sansa, iFP-700 if that gets finished, at the very least) left to WPS doesn't make that much sense even if the hierarchy were redesigned,
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on January 22, 2007, 11:44:44 AM
I can't speak to other platforms, but as to the iRiver H-xxx series (and I honestly don't recall if this has been said before, but perhaps it bears repeating):

My player spends a good deal of its life on my desk facing me, or in the car in a similar position.  In that position, it is much more convenient and useful to be able to use the joystick on the front of the player for as much as possible, rather than reaching around the player to use the play button on the side (in fact, on my desk right now, the right side of the player as it faces me is blocked).  In the car, there is a small safety factor as well (altho, having said that, the greatest safety factor would be not to press buttons while driving).

Is this an overarching issue?  No.  Does it justify adding the feature to the stock source code?  It depends on the complications vs. insular benefits, which the developers would know best.  Do I typically patch my code to add the feature in?  Yes.

The best con argument seems to have been complications for blind users.  But that seemingly can be addressed by having this as an option.  But adding to the code (even a small amount?) could complicate matters.  As Rockbox continues to expand, I do wonder as to consistency as an overarching argument, as each player is different, with different buttons and possibilities.  I would hate to see capabilities avoided in favor of consistency (that's what my high school did when I was growing up--not a good approach, in my humble opinion).

Just my 2 cents worth, as this topic has arisen again.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: markun on January 26, 2007, 09:14:56 AM
I have a question for all you left-to-WPS lovers :)

In the rockbox IRC channel we have been talking about a root menu. It would be a menu containing: browse files, WPS, settings menu, FM radio, recording, plugins etc.

When you start rockbox it would show this menu, also pressing left in the file browser and settings menu would return here. The MENU button would always take you there.

There would also  be an option to start rockbox in one of the menu items by default (which is now only possible for the recording screen)

Now the question is, if it was implemented like this, would you guys still want the WPS to be the root of this root menu or would it be fine like this?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: goffa on January 26, 2007, 10:54:40 AM
I'm to the point where i don't care if i have to patch as long as the patch works. But my main reason for advocating left to wps is this:

1) I have different players, different buttons are in different locations. So, pressing a different button to get to wps equals frustration at times

If WPS was on the root menu, as a top menu option, i guess that would accomplish the same thing in terms of useability.  However, it's kind of a moot point in light of the code size argument.

2) left currently does nothing at the root menu, so why not allow it to do something

Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on January 26, 2007, 01:33:01 PM
In trying to conceptualize the change, I noted that, environmentally, I seem to use the left-to-WPS patch (1) because I'm used to it, moreso than using the play button to get to the WPS (with the "press play for WPS" patch, which I also have), but (2) also when it simply is easier to move the joystick to the left rather than reaching around to use the play button.  This latter circumstance tends to be when the player is on my crowded desk facing me and it is easier to reach the front of the player than the side, and when the player is facing me in the car, when I'm driving, and, again, it is easier to reach the player's front.

Operationally, I seem to use left-to-WPS when I am playing music and have entered the browser/file list, to delete a file or see what else is there.  Left-to-WPS and I am back to the WPS.

In that circumstance, and while I like the set-up being considered (it always seemed incomplete to me that there was no "Table of Contents" type screen in Rockbox, although it is not necessary and could be seen as adding a step, perhaps), left-to-WPS still would seem helpful, ergonomically.  

I wonder if a worthy (and relatively complication-free) option is a form of that mentioned in a post above:   left would take one to the Table of Contents screen, but then a further long left press (which feature could be turned on in the configuration options) would take one to the WPS.  It seemed, from the above, that this could be implemented with minimal code or complication, and that this would not interfere with use by those with vision issues.  

Also, if I understand the set-up being considered, it would "add" a step to get back to the WPS, by having to go thru the Table of Contents screen.   Left-to-WPS would seem to be an easy means by which to get back to the WPS with minimal effort and steps (as both the left-to-WPS and play button patches try to do now).

Just some humble thoughts; thank you for soliciting and considering them.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: fml2 on January 29, 2007, 04:13:39 AM
Now the question is, if it was implemented like this, would you guys still want the WPS to be the root of this root menu or would it be fine like this?


I wouldn't probably use that root menu. For me, it's just fine that RB starts in the file browser. And I don't consider the WPS the 'root' screen. But when music is playing (and the WPS is displayed), when I press NAVI (on my H120) to bring up the file browser it feels like menu. And if a menu is displayed from WPS I can go back to WPS by just pressing LEFT. I know that the file browser is not a menu. But it just feels like that (for me) when called up from WPS. That's the only reason I'd like the 'left to WPS' feature be implemented. Consistency, in a sense. Like Llorean. But seen a little bit differently. IMHO 'left to WPS' should not start playback if music is not playing. It should work like menu: if you went to file browser from WPS (like menu) you should return to WPS by pressing LEFT sufficient number of times. If the file browser is the 'main' screen (not called up as a menu), pressing LEFT in the root should do nothing.

As for the root menu, I don't quite like the WPS entry there. What would it do? Start the playback? What song then? Its purpose is not completely clear IMHO.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: xxtechn9ne on January 29, 2007, 05:26:59 PM
hello everyone i am a rockbox noob and i  am having trouble getting to the root menu with my ipod 5g. how do i get back to the root menu?? thanks your help is appreciated
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on January 29, 2007, 06:01:59 PM
If you mean the 'main menu,' press 'Menu.'

There is no menu in Rockbox called the root menu.  You really should read through the first few chapers of the Rockbox Manual.  It explains how to get to each menu.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: xxtechn9ne on January 29, 2007, 06:10:06 PM
i figured it out ;D  i just switched from database to all to get back to the menu i was talking about thanks again febs
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Febs on January 29, 2007, 07:21:48 PM
That's the File Browser, not a menu.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: iwantanimac on February 11, 2007, 07:25:44 AM
As much as i didn't like this patch before, it grew on me when i was kinda forced to use it by the newest Angryman_H10 custom build for the H10, and now i like it.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: psycho_maniac on February 12, 2007, 08:57:46 PM
as long as its an option and the default setting is set to  "no" i could really care less if its in  the curent build., but i can see the arguments and agree with why its not in the current build.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on February 13, 2007, 11:43:12 AM
Given the (controversy) over this feature, I can't easily envision anyone committing it to Rockbox (but, hey, stranger things happen in life--witness the last U.S. presidential election).  But I find it interesting and somewhat informative (if not humorous) how this thread simply will not die out.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: markun on March 06, 2007, 08:35:51 AM

... left-to-WPS still would seem helpful, ergonomically.



2) left currently does nothing at the root menu, so why not allow it to do something



I wouldn't probably use that root menu.



As for the root menu, I don't quite like the WPS entry there.


What do you guys think of it now it's implemented? Any suggestions for improvements?
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: bascule on March 06, 2007, 08:49:44 AM
Although I was never convinced that left-to-WPS was a Good ThingTM, I also didn't think I'd like the root menu. However, I was wrong.

For me personally it allows easy navigation between File Browser and Database, using only the joystick on my H120, which I find quicker and easier than the Quick Menu (YMMV :P ).

You can still startup on any screen you like.

For new users, especially the great number of new iPod users who say 'Where's the menu', 'Why can't I see anything' it should improve their immediate 'User Experience' impressions of Rockbox.

I think, although many will see it as unecessary, that it improves the professional presentation of the software.

I know there are many valid opposing views here, but for me it makes Rockbox even better ;D

EDIT:
With apologies to the poster concerned, but this is an example from this very thread of what I was talking about :)

i figured it out ; I just switched from database to all to get back to the menu i was talking about thanks again febs


That's the File Browser, not a menu.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on March 06, 2007, 03:04:15 PM
The Main Menu presentation also helps to move from appearing to be an Operating System (where the main concentration is file access and interaction with files / stored data) to a Firmware (you're now essentially given a list saying 'here are the main things this device can do').
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: keuleJ on March 08, 2007, 03:11:32 AM
I think the new main menu is just great!
And for those who don't like it, they can choose another start screen, great!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Mikerman on March 16, 2007, 10:49:49 AM
Am just getting up to speed with the new root menu; need to play with it some more.

One thing I noted and that I've seen some comment on is that there are certain keys that seem to remain unused on the H-1xx players, that could be taken advantage of for shortcuts and the like.  (I guess this player is blessed with numerous keys.)  For example, a long press of the REC button (long needing an assignment); a long press of the A-B button from the root menu; a short press of the A-B button from the root menu when nothing is playing (or, when it is, this key assignment potentially could be reassigned, as it duplicates a press of the PLAY button); a long press of the PLAY button.

Some "naturals" might be for a long press of the REC button to be used as a shortcut for the recording screen (or for A-B looping? or a long press of PLAY could be used for that), and for a long press of A-B to get to settings (which often seems helpful to get to).  

Now please don't scream, and although I've been using PLAY to get back to the WPS screen, I still miss left-to-WPS--it's just so easy to use (although I understand the issue for people with vision issues and a possible mistaken extra press) . . .

Of course, having said all this and while I would like to see shortcuts committed if that were possible, to take full advantage of the "extra keys," I commend the devs for the root menu!
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on March 16, 2007, 10:54:34 AM
I think most of us agree a long press of Record should go to the Record screen.

You should play with A-B a little more though. It doesn't reproduce the play button. It invokes and banishes the root menu. Which means it can seem very, very much like it's duplicating the play button if you only ever use A-B from the WPS, and then a second time. But try going to the filetree, hitting A-B to call up the root menu, and hitting it again. Do this while music's playing if you'd like, or not, it shouldn't matter. You should end up back in the filetree.

A-B is basically "Root menu On/Off" while Play is "Resume playback if necessary, then go to the WPS". There is a small amount of overlap, but the majority of their functionality is independent.
Title: Re: Pressing LEFT to get to WPS from file root
Post by: Llorean on October 04, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
Please don't post unsupported builds anywhere but the unsupported build forum.