Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => Theming and Appearance Customization => Topic started by: lights0ut on April 30, 2007, 02:43:17 PM

Title: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: lights0ut on April 30, 2007, 02:43:17 PM
Over the course of my time on the forums here, it seems like there are a large majority of users that do not
read the words "this theme requires  a patched rockbox build: link to specific build" and then complain about a specific theme not working in the forums.
The wiki (especially the iPod 5G) is just a list of themes, maybe there should be efforts made to divide it into two sections :
1.Compatible with the current build
2.Requires patches/ custom build

With a quick explanation of what each option means for the users who remain oblivious.
I'd recommend organizing further because most WPS's that require a patches/custom build usually only need
Album Art and Scrolling Margins, so maybe a section for those, and then a section for everything else underneath the Requires Patches section.
While I'm at it I might as well flag the themes as either "soap certified" or not (see this thread (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=10140.0)).

I'm not asking someone to take the time to do this, I'm willing to commit a few hours to it, I just want to see the feasability of the idea.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: bascule on April 30, 2007, 03:42:06 PM
I think just separating custom build or not is sufficient; perhaps augmented with clearer indication of which build and/or patches are required
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 30, 2007, 05:02:40 PM
Or just remove them from the wiki as they are not supported by rockbox and the developers  anyways.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on April 30, 2007, 05:41:15 PM
Psycho_maniac, not everyone can obtain hosting for their themes, and while removing the unsupported ones would greatly simplify things, I don't think this is necessary. Many users want to enjoy album art/scrolling margins features, and as a result there have been many WPS's made with those patches. The builds needed for them are easily obtainable too. Why would separating/ catagorizing the WPS's not be enough?
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: bluebrother on May 01, 2007, 12:36:24 AM

Psycho_maniac, not everyone can obtain hosting for their themes

There are plenty of free hosting services around so I think this could be considerated.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: bascule on May 01, 2007, 08:42:43 AM

There are plenty of free hosting services around so I think this could be considerated.


Yes, but they are mostly rubbish and/or full of spammy adverts.

As the custom builds are hosted, I see absolutely no reason why custon WPS's should not also be hosted.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: Nate! on May 01, 2007, 10:00:07 AM
Just my two cents:  I agree with Bascule:
Quote from: Bascule
As the custom builds are hosted, I see absolutely no reason why custon WPS's should not also be hosted.


I know there are minimalists that use rockbox, to each his own.  But, Custom WPSs are a sought-after feature.  Since custom builds are hosted, WPS that are created for those builds should be hosted also.

EvilG's idea of organization is great.  Sort of like the rockbox-themes page, except maybe clearly define in bold that a specific build/patch is needed.

I guess, since it is a wiki, EvilG can make the changes.  If there are any objections, the Admins can roll back to the previous revision.

Maybe sections like:

Official build customs:
  The following WPSs will display correctly using the official build rxxxxx-Date.

WPS.wps

EvilG Fusion/J build:
  The following WPSs will not display correctly unless you download the current x build.

Senab build:
  The following WPSs will not display correctly unless you download the current x build.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: Llorean on May 01, 2007, 03:54:15 PM
We could just stop hosting custom builds. ;)
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: bluebrother on May 01, 2007, 04:07:59 PM

We could just stop hosting custom builds. ;)

Where do we host custom builds? I only know about the forum threads, and those link to external sites that hold the custom builds itself.

Or did I miss something here?
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: soap on May 01, 2007, 04:43:47 PM

EvilG Fusion/J build:
 Â The following WPSs will not display correctly unless you download the current x build.

Senab build:
 Â The following WPSs will not display correctly unless you download the current x build.

No.
This is part of what we need to move away from.
There is no WPS out there which relies on the brightness patch from Senab's build.
There are not WPSs out there which rely on the one click to insert, plugin backlight always on, or random album select patchs from evilG's build.
We should not be associating WPSs with builds, but rather with features.  Features which may or may not be part of "stock" Rockbox by the time some future gallery visitor is reading the WPS description.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: Nate! on May 01, 2007, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: bluebrother
Where do we host custom builds?

Just quickly browsing to the Gigabeat gallery, there are unofficial builds attached as well as the WPS "package."

I've seen this in the 320x240 gallery also.

zips attached, not builds linked to an external sites.

Quote from: soap
We should not be associating WPSs with builds, but rather with features.

Good Point.  Features, should we only list patches that a specific unofficial build will need in order for the WPS to work?

X WPS
  * needs Album Art and Scroll Margins patch in order to view as shown.

or

X WPS
   * Able to support Album Art and Margins for scrolling text.

The latter may lead some to believe that downloading the WPS and loading it on an official build will subsequently "enable" those features. No?

The Galleries need organizing.  Someone has volunteered to start it.  Suggestions on how it should be done are what he's asking for.  
I hope no one takes the above as being rude, they're really just light harded assessments of the original post.

Let's face it, people like the cool features and looks of the WPSs that artists and the like put there time and effort into creating.  They want to share their work with the Rockbox community.  That's what the wiki/gallery is for.  Organizing it into a more user friendly and intuitive format is a good idea.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on May 01, 2007, 09:37:33 PM
Would it be a good idea to physically separate the themes that work on the current build from the themes that work only on unsupported builds? (i.e. separate galleries)

I was just thinking that the TOC section of the Wiki would be more useful that way because with one combined gallery there will be this:

Themes that work with current build
...........
..........
.........

and then in the middle of all this

Themes that work only with unsupported builds

etc.
.

Come to think of it now, I could just use an HTML link instead of the the wiki's TOC so it would be:
current build                  unsupported

TOC
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: Llorean on May 02, 2007, 09:59:55 PM
Any unsupported builds actually attached to the wiki need to be removed. Please point out where they are so that I can see to it this happens.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: scorche on May 03, 2007, 06:11:06 AM
I was thinking of going with the SOAP seal with different colored icons denoting WPSs that will work with SVN builds versus ones that require patches.

Regardless, I plan on having this topic be one of the topics discussed in DevCon-West (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DevConWest2007).
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: Domonoky on May 03, 2007, 04:29:23 PM

One thing i really would like to see, is the integration of rockbox-themes.org, because rbutil (the future official rockbox utility) can now install Themes from this site.
This is not possible with the wiki.
So it would be really good, if, atleast, the Themes which dont requiere custom build are aviable via this site, or something similar.
 
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on May 03, 2007, 06:51:10 PM

I was thinking of going with the SOAP seal with different colored icons denoting WPSs that will work with SVN builds versus ones that require patches.

Regardless, I plan on having this topic be one of the topics discussed in DevCon-West (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DevConWest2007).


you mean different colored soap bars? that would work quite nicely.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: scorche on May 03, 2007, 07:01:28 PM


I was thinking of going with the SOAP seal with different colored icons denoting WPSs that will work with SVN builds versus ones that require patches.

Regardless, I plan on having this topic be one of the topics discussed in DevCon-West (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DevConWest2007).


you mean different colored soap bars? that would work quite nicely.


Yes, that is what I mean.  In the meantime, there would be a separate wiki page where we would toss the un-SOAPed themes until we can wade through them.  But, as I said before, there is much more to this as well regarding the actual guidelines, method for delivery, and other items, which is why I think it will be a good topic to bring up at DevCon-W.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on May 17, 2007, 04:09:06 PM
Just to let everyone know I'm still planning on getting the wiki organized. After looking at some of the other WPS galleries,  I noticed that most have the themes organized by the Author, and I think this would work really well and help to distinguish the wiki from rockbox-themes.org. Not to cut down on rockbox-themes, but I think that it would be an advantage to have two styles of organization, alphabetical (on rockbox-themes) and by author (the wiki). I think that I would organize the themes by author only if there is more than one theme by the author, and then Alphabetically.
So the gallery would look like this:
TOC
>only links to Author's
>links to themenames if only one submission

Authors - sorted alphabetically, real name preferred over alias (i.e. Gary Light instead of EvilG123 or Chris Banes instead of Senab) of course, this would be left to the decision of the author themeselves.

Authors with 1 submission - themes sorted by theme title alphabetically.

Any thoughts? I think this would work really nicely and would really cleanup the wiki. It would also give users a chance to view each author's work together, just to see what else they've done. I also had an idea that after the wiki was organized this way, we could easily make author's themepacks (like a Senab themepack, a PHK themepack etc.) which would be really cool.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on May 17, 2007, 10:09:08 PM
Just to elaborate a bit more on my previous idea about organizing by author, I started to think about what to do with the large amount of modified WPS's (remixes as I call them). I think a good way to go about it would be to put them next to their originals, and quoting the remixer. Or maybe I could add a link inside each remixed WPS like this
WPS description etc.
Remixed by: Link to Remix (Author's Name)

I just thought of the second idea as I was typing (I actually prefer it), it would help keep each author's works whether original or remix together.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on May 18, 2007, 09:52:58 PM
Since there isn't much activity in this thread, I decided to spike some interest by implementing my suggested changes thus far; I've made some major modifications to the iPod 5G WPS gallery so please check it out (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIpod5g).

I'd say that the layout is a good 70% done, there are still some changes to be made with regard to formatting (making things clearer), but I thought I'd get the ball rolling on this.

A couple of things you may be wondering, yes I did save a copy of the original, yes all the WPS's that were there before are still there.

I strongly encourage anyone and everyone to leave any feedback
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: scorche on May 19, 2007, 02:21:58 AM
First, the edit button is handy...use it please  ;)

Secondly, many people are waiting on this because there are many other decisions to make regarding WPSs and it would be easier to make one big round-up effort rather than a few.  Also, apparently people are waiting till WPSs in general and a few issues about them are going to be discussed and decided upon at DevCon-West (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DevConWest2007).

Also, saving a copy of the original isn't needed, as the wiki uses a revision system and keeps track of all past revisions.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: Yotto on May 19, 2007, 02:24:39 AM
I appreciate the effort, and like the direction you're going, but the page itself is way too unwieldy as-is.  There is no way to make it ... weildy? ... with the number of themes available.  I think it should be split up, perhaps by author.

Also, I authored Lights, White Lights, and Car. :)
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on May 19, 2007, 10:23:12 AM
Thanks for the feedback Yotto, I'll make the changes you requested.

Edit: Done, hope I got your name right ;)

 I know the gallery is huge, I'm trying to make things better by organizing it, there is no way I can trim it. But if I put things on separate pages, I'm not sure how intuitive that would be. I *think* I could pull it off, on each page I'd just have to add the wiki tag to include the main gallery so that the links work (someone tell me if I'm right about that).

You'll notice that on the first few author's galleries there are little arrows on the right hand side, these link to the top, so say you're done looking through said author's gallery, and now you want to look at Senabs, its much easier to go back to the top, and look through the more organized TOC for him under
the Authors Galleries section. Plus I've made the Quick links section, which should help if you just want to browse each section. Also the Make your own should provide people with an avenue to the appropriate tutorial pages, without always asking on the forums. I added the improtant stuff section to help people out with fonts and a way to read the guidelines and the soon to be implemented (I hope) Soap Seal of Approval. I may make this a separate page because I want to add some notes about installation, but that may not be a good idea because it may be best just to keep it where everyone can see it.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: ryran on June 14, 2007, 01:50:20 AM
I'd like to .. uhh... re-open this whole thing for discussion. Or at least start a dialogue with you, Gary, since you kinda took this on as a pet project.

So. I really don't like the way the WPS page is organized now.
Specifically I'm very opposed to the implemented "galleries" system. I think separating between an "author gallery" and "unknown/single submission" is not a good idea--I believe the WPSes should speak for themselves and be organized irrespective of their creator. I also think it only adds an unnecessary level of complexity to have an "imitations/look-alikes" gallery.

As for the remix gallery: the 5g WPS page is already prohibitively large--making it longer by having duplicates is craziness. Seriously, it doesn't make practical sense to have any WPS in more than one place on the same page..it's horrible for editing and upkeep and it just makes things confusing for users. I think "remixes" should be kept adjacent to the original WPS they're based on at all times.

Hmm. I guess that's all I've got for now. Damn it's late.
Since I see this could potentially be taken as more than just constructive criticism, I just want to end this by saying that you have my recognition and admiration--for seeing a problem and taking the initiative to work on improving it. Nothing but respect for you man. :)
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: lights0ut on June 14, 2007, 07:41:05 PM
Thanks for voicing your opinion on this, that is what the thread is for, and I do encourage people to comment on this. (no offense taken at all, btw) The wiki is for the rockbox community, and if the community is not happy with how the wiki is looking, it should be changed to something more useful.

Ryan, I understand your points about the how the gallery would be much less complex if it were A to Z, what I was trying to do was to distinguish the gallery from Rockbox-themes.org because the themes site is organized A to Z. That is not to say that I dislike rockbox-themes, I like it a lot, but I wanted to do something with the wiki.

However, I agree with your point about the fact that it is now more complex to maintain the wiki with the different sections. This is a major point, and enough for me to rethink how the wiki is organized, I have an archived version of the wiki's state before I started, so I could revert it back, and add in the changes since then.

But I don't think that would be proper, what I'm trying to do is improve the wiki because I think there is a general feeling that it needs to be cleaned up. Should it just be organized A to Z? or is there a better way?

I had the idea earlier to make two different WPS galleries:
1. A straightforward A to Z format
2. Separate pages for each of the "galleries"

What do people think of this idea? Would it make things better, worse, or is it not worth the effort?
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: scorche on June 16, 2007, 02:12:09 AM
As I have said before, this will get all hashed out tomorrow, so stay tuned. ;)
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: lights0ut on February 25, 2008, 11:00:50 PM
It's well overdue but I am in the process of returning the WPS gallery for the 5G iPod on the wiki (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIpod5g) back to it's original organization. Basically I'm just putting all the themes in alphabetical order by theme name. Hopefully, this will not break any links from forum topics etc. but if this causes too much havoc then we can always keep the wiki the way it is, or change it (it is after all, a wiki)

EDIT: Changes are complete here's a rundown
-themes are now in alphabetical order (# A-Z)
-omitted notes about themes that were removed due to copyright issues
-fixed headings and TOC
-removed up arrow links to TOC, users can just hit the home key
-tidied up introduction, focus on introducing new users to the gallery
-fixed some formatting errors from my find+replace work

Title: Re: Organizing the wiki
Post by: zajacattack on February 25, 2008, 11:01:51 PM
I'm all for this. Any help you need, just say the word.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: hhannah on February 26, 2008, 12:22:11 AM
I totally agree with your idea

Now, regarding your original idea of dividing the themes that work on the official build, from those that require patches or patched builds, I think it would be really helpful: if you only want to use the official (and supported) build, you'll know where to go; if you are a "looks-REALLY-matter" user, open to use patches or patched builds, you also will know where to go. And also, this division would save webpage loading time, sometimes it can go really slow. An extra idea: a "recently added/updated" list would be also of great help

And by the way, thanks for your time and work on all this!
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: pondlife on February 26, 2008, 08:13:08 AM
Just an idea...

How about only including themes that work with an unpatched build, and have been tested as currently working with an SVN build.  Themes that are broken, or require patches would be moved to new pages (WpsIpod5gBroken and WpsIpod5gNeedPatches perhaps).  

This would obviously take time, but it would also help us to keep track of which themes need fixing up, and prevent the page being clogged up with themes that are useless to (SVN) Rockbox users.

pondlife
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: ryran on February 26, 2008, 10:56:13 AM
Hear hear.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: lights0ut on February 26, 2008, 07:02:35 PM
Just an idea...

How about only including themes that work with an unpatched build, and have been tested as currently working with an SVN build.  Themes that are broken, or require patches would be moved to new pages (WpsIpod5gBroken and WpsIpod5gNeedPatches perhaps). 

This would obviously take time, but it would also help us to keep track of which themes need fixing up, and prevent the page being clogged up with themes that are useless to (SVN) Rockbox users.

pondlife


Rather than exclude themes which require a patched build, I think it would be better to clearly define what each theme requires. This would mean that every theme should state:
1.the required patches (if the theme works with svn then state no patches req'd)
2.what builds the author recommends (svn, specific unsupported builds)
and have this displayed in a Visual manner.

With regard to only including themes that are "currently working with svn" a visual representation of a theme's status (green for working, yellow for untested, red for broken)
along with what was used to test the build should be included in the theme description. There are changes in the code that have occurred which would cause a great deal of themes to be broken, or partially broken for some time (ex. stricter WPS parsing, RTC code changes) and would therefore cause drastic changes to the gallery. Broken themes should be identified and fixed rather than removed.

I have a few ideas floating in my head about how to organize a theme gallery for rockbox, so hopefully I can put them together into a mockup. I have little experience with web design, but I do know that there is a need for clarity when it comes to theme requirements, whether or not the theme is broken, licensing, and overall organization of a theme gallery. Just dealing with putting the iPod wiki gallery back in order has gotten me back in touch with these issues that I'm guessing a lot of users come across when customizing the look and feel of rockbox.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: Llorean on February 26, 2008, 07:05:13 PM
I don't see why it's bad to exclude themes that require patched builds, because they are the OFFICIAL theme gallery. Someone else can always set up hosting for the unsupported themes, that way we have more clear separation so people don't keep asking us why themes don't work.

No matter how clear you make it, some people won't care to pay attention.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: lights0ut on February 26, 2008, 08:28:33 PM
I don't see why it's bad to exclude themes that require patched builds, because they are the OFFICIAL theme gallery. Someone else can always set up hosting for the unsupported themes, that way we have more clear separation so people don't keep asking us why themes don't work.

No matter how clear you make it, some people won't care to pay attention.

Would a separate wiki gallery for unsupported themes be a valid option? I think that it would at least keep things within the wiki, without having to find a dedicated maintainer for the hosting of unsupported themes, while at the same time provide the clearest separation without physically separating the hosting.

Ultimately, this issue is up to the devs as they own the hosting, and they support the official rockbox. However, due to the volume of unsupported themes available I think they deserve a spot in the gallery rather than here and there on the web, or a 3rd party site. We already have two themes galleries but they are separated based on one that is strictly no copyright infringement vs. a more flexible stance on copyright. (ie the wiki vs. rockbox-themes.org)
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: Llorean on February 26, 2008, 08:31:26 PM
Why not simply encourage people to fix the remainder of the themes to be compatible with official Rockbox?
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: psycho_maniac on February 27, 2008, 10:07:44 AM

Just an idea...

How about only including themes that work with an unpatched build, and have been tested as currently working with an SVN build.  Themes that are broken, or require patches would be moved to new pages (WpsIpod5gBroken and WpsIpod5gNeedPatches perhaps).  

This would obviously take time, but it would also help us to keep track of which themes need fixing up, and prevent the page being clogged up with themes that are useless to (SVN) Rockbox users.

pondlife



I totally agree with this idea
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: lights0ut on February 27, 2008, 10:37:23 PM

Why not simply encourage people to fix the remainder of the themes to be compatible with official Rockbox?


Good point. How about this:

Wpsgallery > wpsipod5G --- > wpsipod5G-SVN
                                        \  > wpsipod5G-Unsupported

This way wpsipod5G could be left as an intro page with a short blurb explaining the 2 links and encouraging people to fix the unsupported themes to work with official rockbox.

On a separate note here is a mockup I've put together for a future WPS gallery (not necessarily the wiki)
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: ryran on February 27, 2008, 11:52:58 PM
Hey Gary.
I just went to the page for the first time in a long while and noticed an inline animated gif that was more than 1mb. So I replaced it with a png and a link to the gif. The other gifs on the page (maybe only phk) aren't THAT big but they're a lot bigger than the 10-50kb static pngs. I'd recommend we make a note about no embedded gifs and request that people link them instead (and update the ones that are already there to reflect that).

If no one else does it I suppose I will....
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: lights0ut on February 28, 2008, 12:45:14 AM
Agreed, looking at the numbers, 1MB is a significant % of the total data load when it comes to images on gallery. Having a "no embedded gifs" rule might upset a few themers that like to do animation, so maybe just restricting the size to less than 256kB would do?
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: ryran on February 28, 2008, 02:55:20 AM
The page is already ridiculously huge--I say just make them links. It would shave off a couple MB. That's significant.
Title: Re: Organizing the wiki page:WpsIpod5g
Post by: scorche on March 03, 2008, 03:07:30 AM

Would a separate wiki gallery for unsupported themes be a valid option? I think that it would at least keep things within the wiki, without having to find a dedicated maintainer for the hosting of unsupported themes, while at the same time provide the clearest separation without physically separating the hosting.

Ultimately, this issue is up to the devs as they own the hosting, and they support the official rockbox. However, due to the volume of unsupported themes available I think they deserve a spot in the gallery rather than here and there on the web, or a 3rd party site. We already have two themes galleries but they are separated based on one that is strictly no copyright infringement vs. a more flexible stance on copyright. (ie the wiki vs. rockbox-themes.org)


Just as a note to add to the discussion, as you may know, I have had the new theme repository (will replace both the wiki and rockbox-themes.org) ready for quite some time now and have just been waiting for a good time to deploy it.  Currently it is planned to go live when viewports-in-wps gets committed so that the themes that will be submitted will all be compatible and to lessen the number of themes to be removed because of incompatibility.

Regarding your mock-up, the new repository looks almost identical to the current rockbox-themes.org site (as it is based on its code).  If we went with something more like your mock-up, the page would be very large and even if we trimmed it down to X themes per page, I think it would just get annoying to have to go through a lot of pages.  I also think that we would have people that would "update" their theme quite often or name their theme (depending on the sorting choices) in a larger effort to be "on the first page".