Rockbox Technical Forums
Support and General Use => User Interface and Voice => Topic started by: bblackmoor on June 11, 2007, 10:58:41 AM
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I am a new (and quite enthusiastic) Rockbox user, so please forgive me for what is probably an obvious newbie question, but I haven't found a way to do this and it's starting to really bug me.
Is there a toggle or timeout setting for the player to return to the "Now Playing" screen? When I am done with the playlist, or fiddling with the settings, or what have you, I want (and I think most people would want) for the player to return to the "Now Playing" screen. But no matter how long has passed since I was on some other screen, the player never returns to the "Now Playing" screen. I have to tediously surf through the menus to find that option and then manually select it.
Am I missing something obvious?
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You should just be able to press the "Play" button for your target from wherever you are to get back to the WPS.
This definitely works on both my iPod and H140, but come to think of it, I'm not sure of the button on my Gigabeat. It's in the manual somewhere.
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You should just be able to press the "Play" button for your target from wherever you are to get back to the WPS.
That does work. Thanks! It's not as simple as just having the screen go back to the "Now Playing" screen after a timeout (which I would still prefer, and which I think most people would expect), but it's certainly easier than what I had been doing.
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Am I missing something obvious?
Yes, the explanation of the Rockbox user interface in the manual ;)
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It's not as simple as just having the screen go back to the "Now Playing" screen after a timeout (which I would still prefer, and which I think most people would expect)
Really? I would find that incredibly irritating. I want it to stay in the screen I put it in.
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I would find that incredibly irritating. I want it to stay in the screen I put it in.
So I guess you find every DVD player, stereo, VCR, microwave oven, computer monitor, cell phone, and MP3 player (other than Rockbox) annoying. Different strokes for different folks, I guess: I certainly would not want anyone to be forced to use something they find irritating. Still, I would like the option of having Rockbox UI act like virtually every other piece of consumer electronics on the planet.
It probably sounds like I am complaining now, and I'm not: perhaps your comment aroused my defensive instincts. I am just saying that the normal, expected behavior is that a device goes back to its default screen after a timeout, and I, personally, would prefer to have that option in Rockbox. For what little that may be worth, coming as it does from someone who has contributed nothing to the project.
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I would find that incredibly irritating. I want it to stay in the screen I put it in.
So I guess you find every DVD player, stereo, VCR, microwave oven, computer monitor, cell phone, and MP3 player (other than Rockbox) annoying.
I /would/ find it very annoying if my cellphone or dap did it. The microwave to a lesser extent. The reason for that is that I'm never (or extremely rarely) forced to put the microwave in my pocket to continue setting the cooking time later. A dap or cellphone is a tool used on the go and that means you cannot always be paying full attention to it. Sometimes it's better to just pay attention to the surrounding world and continue later where you were.
I know many cellphones and daps works like you describe, but that doesn't make it any more right in my opinion.
Also, having a timeout doesn't eliminate the need for a dedicated button. You still have the "I want to go to WPS *NOW* situation"
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So I guess you find every DVD player, stereo, VCR, microwave oven, computer monitor, cell phone, and MP3 player (other than Rockbox) annoying.
What an over generalisation - NONE of the items I own in the above list act as you describe - when I enter the menu, it STAYS in the menu until I say otherwise, and that's the way I like it!
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The only device I have that leaves the screen I left it in is my phone, and that's because I've explicitly set it to lock the screen when I leave it for a certain period of time. Unfortunately the screen lock sucks, and restores it to the 'main' phone screen, rather than locking but leaving you in the other screen, so when I unlock it I have to get back to where I was.
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So I guess you find every DVD player, stereo, VCR, microwave oven, computer monitor, cell phone, and MP3 player (other than Rockbox) annoying.
I own a DVD player, stereo, VCR, microwave, computer monitor, mobile phone, and three mp3 players, and none of them do what you are describing - they all stay where I put them.
Still, I would like the option of having Rockbox UI act like virtually every other piece of consumer electronics on the planet.
What a massive generalisation! I have not owned a single device you mention that does this. I don't know where you are from, but consumer electronics that I am familiar with (in the UK), do not do this. I leave my phone in a menu, it stays there. Same with everything else.
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...having a timeout doesn't eliminate the need for a dedicated button. You still have the "I want to go to WPS *NOW* situation"
I agree with that completely, of course.
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What an over generalisation
It is a generalization, but that is because it is generally true. Even the antique IBM monitor I am using at the moment does this. I push the "contrast" button. The "Contrast" overlay shows in the middle of the screen. I wait a few seconds without touching the monitor. The overlay goes away. This is normal, virtually universal, behavior on any device with a screen and menus.
I am sure that there are exceptions, of course. There are exceptions to everything. And I am sure that, as with anything, people's preferences will differ, and there is nothing wrong with that. But surely we can agree that it would be a user-friendly option to provide? After all, most users don't install Rockbox to look at the "database settings" screen, do they? I would have thought that most people install it to play music. That seems a fairly reasonable assumption to me, at any rate.
But it's a small matter. One extra button-press is not a huge issue. I am sure that the people who contribute their time to the project have much bigger fish to fry.
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A monitor is a completely unrelated case.
A monitor display an input from somewhere else. The menu is device adjustment, rather than relating to what's showing on the screen. Basically, the monitor, and the device it's connected to, have to share a screen. If the monitor had a second screen, just for the menu, there'd be no reason at all for it to reset on idle because it wouldn't be conflicting with anything.
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If the monitor had a second screen, just for the menu, there'd be no reason at all for it to reset on idle because it wouldn't be conflicting with anything.
I suppose that's true. If iPods had two screens, it would cease to be a concern.
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Thank you for missing the entire point of comparison.
On a monitor, the menu controls the device, rather than the menu controlling the input software.
On the iPod, the menu controls the whole of the software, which is in control of the device.
Tell me, when you open "Control Panel" in windows (or your operating system neutral equivalent), does it disappear after 15 seconds? That's a much more valid comparison, since the menu is in the software driving the display, rather than being an arbitrary part of the display independent of the software.
I imagine if you hook your iPod up to a monitor with a composite to VGA adapter (in the retail firmware, since ours doesn't support the video out yet), you'll find the monitor's menu still disappears just fine.
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Thank you for missing the entire point of comparison.
I think you are the one missing the point. But it's clearly not going to benefit either of us to continue. Have a nice day. And if you are one of the people who volunteer their time to developing Rockbox, thank you. Your effort is appreciated.
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Then spell out your point clearly.
So far, you've said "Rockbox should do it because everyone else does it", had many people respond "Not as far as the stuff we own says", then made an invalid comparison with a monitor (which has two inputs and one output), since the iPod has one input, and one output for the display. A fairer comparison would be something with an integrated display, where the display does not have separate controls. For example another MP3 player. Why not take a poll of MP3 player owners here, as to what their original firmwares do.
But remember, "everything else does it" isn't a valid reason to add extra code, especially when it duplicates something that can be done by pressing a single button in nearly any screen.
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What an over generalisation
It is a generalization, but that is because it is generally true.
It isn't true at all in my (and most other people who have replied's) experience. Just because you think it is doesn't make it so.
Anyway, most of your examples are irrelevent, as Llorean has pointed out above in the case of monitors.
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After upgrading from an old grand daddy of archo 6GB to sansa c250, I think this is the things that bug me the most. I went back to study the the old archo and learned that there are extra 3 menu buttons that repeat press brings back to the "now playing". If one was traverse in menu or directory during playing, the press of "OFF button" will also bring the player back to "now playing"
However it seems that the the sansa c250 doesn't have enough button.. The ON/OFF/MENU button is all in one. Hence despite all menu traverse, a press of ON/OFF/MENU button will only bring one back to the menu. The repeat press of ON/OFF/MENU takes one back and forth between two last menu. It's awkward one is forced to traverse down the list again and select "now playing" to view the song title every time anyone does some menu browsing.
From reading the past post, I think there is valid point from everyone's view. If this feature can be implement, it would be very nice. However, I think there is also another possible easier solution to this problem.
Lets suppose that the player is playing some music, the user does some browsing and press the ON/OFF/MENU button to get back to the main menu. Instead of using UP/DOWN selector to go down and press "now playing" to get back to the music, it would be much easier that the user just press BACK again to get back to the "now playing" At present, the BACK button in Main Menu doesn't go anywhere because it's the main menu already.
Please give some thoughts the idea of BACK button press in main menu goes to "now playing" if there is music playing or resume the last song that the player has played.
Thanks for reading.
PS. After all these years, it's great to see rockbox is still alive and kicking. It's still the BEST! :)
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I feel pretty confident in saying that this won't be implemented.
However, the c200 keymap is currently not ideal (in my opinion and some others) - see http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8824 for a patch that changes some of it.
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Yes, Sansa is terrible in this regard - there is no single button possability to directly go to WPS. I think long LEFT would work here - this shouldn't intrefere with other players.
Having said this I do not understand why there is so much opposition to have timeout return to WPS. It's not about "my device does it" or "no it doesn't not". It's about "does it make sense" or "why would I rather prefer to stay in menu mode". Considering WPS is by far most useful mode of operation timeout does make sense IMHO.
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First off, having "left" stop somewhere that's NOT the WPS is very helpful to blind users. If it didn't stop somewhere in the menu system, you could very easily accidentally "left" until you're rewinding or skipping to the previous task.
As for "not timing out", it's not an issue of "why would I prefer to stay in menu mode" it's "why would I want my MP3 player to do things when I'm not pressing buttons?" If it doesn't timeout, you know that whatever screen you left it on is what screen you'll return to. this is handy, again, if you're navigating blindly (either because you are blind, or because you just can't look right now) and something makes you stop for a few seconds/minutes. It's good to know that when you return, you don't have to know exactly how long you were gone to know what screen it will be in.
Is it really such an imposition to get back to the WPS?
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Yes, it's quite inconvenient to have to resume through the menu instead of a single button press, especially when you are used to it from using other targets.
piggy/oayz:
Using "Left" and this only in the main menu is, as Llorean pointed out, very inconsistent and won't be a "one button resume" too unless you are already in the main menu. Besides, "Long Left/Right" is already taken for the forced horizontal scrolling (which makes sense).
If you take a look at the set of patches for the c200 keymap in the tracker task linked to earlier, you will find one patch which puts "Resume" on "Volume Up" and "Stop" on "Volume Down" which would work everywhere as on other targets - you will loose the ability to directly adjust volume in menu or browser but I think those where the only buttons to make at least some sense to put these functions on, otherwise a short press of "Rec" is still unused but it somehow feels awkward to use for this. I intend to commit bits of these patches soon (resume, virtual keyboard (without the "Page Flip" though but with additionally to the button changes enabled "Line Edit Mode" and one thing that's not in there but for consistency with other targets - WPS context menu on "Long Select"), will add a comment there soonish. I'd be happy if any of you could give a try and comment.
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I wouldn't mind having such an option in Rockbox (go to the WPS after a timeout, if music is playing). I wouldn't use it myself, but it is an often requested feature, and I don't think it would be that hard to implement.
Just my .02
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Or something similar to the Start Screen choices - after timeout, go to X (WPS, Main Menu, etc)?
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I wouldn't mind having such an option in Rockbox (go to the WPS after a timeout, if music is playing). I wouldn't use it myself, but it is an often requested feature, and I don't think it would be that hard to implement.
Just my .02
Gets my vote too.
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As long as it's optional, and defaults to off, I don't object. It'd be a bad behaviour to suddenly "show up" when someone upgrades their build. Again, especially for blind users.
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Ok, I think I understand the difference in opinions after reading the new inputs and some further study.
In a way, the problem itself is tie with the limited key of Sansa, the screen and the difference of preference.
Unlike the old archo player and other new mp3 player, when the sansa goes time out with the backlight, the screen is totally BLACK. Hence if an user don’t return to WPS after some fiddling, the next press of key can end up anywhere that’s unintended.
This problem is conflicting with the need of user that would like the see the name of song in WPS without the intention to go anywhere to start with. At present, the all the sansa key in WPS force a user to go somewhere and comes back to see WPS.
Interesting enough, I just notice in the latest build, someone solve this problem within the past week!! The short press of REC no longer go to REC mode but the screen lights up!!
Overall, I deduce that there is two camp of preference. The first camp prefers that the Main Menu should be the starting point VS the second camps prefer WPS should be the starting point.
Except during the first boot up, if a user is actively playing the music, I tend to think that WPS is actually the starting point of interaction. This need of second preference is increment by the way sansa operate where the screen is BLACK after backlight time out. The user is already lost if he doesn’t know what state he was in before the backlight time out. In this regard, I end up recommend finding way to return to WPS more quickly which is why I suggest the return to WPS in Main menu with short LEFT click.
If possible, I think the idea of short click with REC return to WPS is actually a BETTER IDEA!! The user who like main menu as starting can always click menu key for shortcut while the user who need to return WPS quickly can use short REC click as shortcut.
With extra button in other rockbox mp3 player, this need may not be as important. But for sansa, this change will match to the old experience of archo rockbox where one extra click of either 3 menu button or the OFF button takes the user back to WPS. ;D
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Or you could turn the "First keypress tuns on backlight" option. Then if the backlight is off pressing any button will turn it on and do nothing else.
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Using "Left" and this only in the main menu is, as Llorean pointed out, very inconsistent and won't be a "one button resume" too unless you are already in the main menu. Besides, "Long Left/Right" is already taken for the forced horizontal scrolling (which makes sense).
.... I'd be happy if any of you could give a try and comment.
Acatually I was concerned only about quickly getting from MANU to WPS. It takes too many clicks getting back through 4-5 layers. Since left takes you one layer up it seems logical that long left takes you to the "top". I agree -horizontal scrolling is also important and does interfere with this proposal. Should long right force bidirectional scroll while long left goes to WPS?
I also vote to have WPS timeout option.
If you need a help to try out new interface features on Sansa C200 - I can volonteer
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The main menu is the "top" level, not the WPS. The WPS doesn't even exist unless music is playing. Besides, once you're in the main menu, it's only a couple keypress to get to the WPS anyway.
And your whole "left to get back, right to scroll" doesn't even begin to address the other issues mentioned (problems it creates for ease of use for blind users being a very significant one) by having the ability to hold "left" get you to the WPS. Having it stop somewhere where more pressing of left won't do anything further is invaluable.
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it's only a couple keypress to get to the WPS anyway
This is underestimation. Let's see how to get from deep in the menu to WPS:
Now playing/Settings/General Settings/Display/LCD settings/Contrast/28
5 lefts, up, right (7 clicks)
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And the lefts can all be done very, very, very quickly since you know it will stop at the same screen every time.
I also note you're still not attempting to address the actual issues it will create.
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we are still talking about the c200?
going from any depth in the menus to wps is 3 presses... power, up, right
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we are still talking about the c200?
going from any depth in the menus to wps is 3 presses... power, up, right
This is great - always the same combination (can be done blindly). Thanks for the tip!
On the 2nd thought - why "power" stops at top configiration level? Why not go to WPS (if WPS is active)? OK, don't beat me too much if it's a stupid question or if you fill I'm too persistent :-) Never intendent to offend coders or others who put their effort in rockbox.
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Having just tripped over a similar problem on my desk phone (and accidentally cleared a call) can I add a vote to the please DON'T make left go to WPS from the top level menu.
If left to WPS were added, when coming up the menu structure, you'd eventually go into the WPS and any extra lefts would cause a seek to the start of the current track, than go back a track, or two, or three...
I like lots of lefts (don't need to watch, know or count them), then one right into the WPS.
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I like how 'play' does to WPS on the ipod. Am I being an idiot?
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I like 'Play' going to the WPS on my e200 too.
I am legally blind. I appreciate the effort by Rockbox developers to support blind users.
Having the screen stay where I left it is important to me. Having the option of turning this feature on/off would be ok though.