Rockbox Technical Forums
Rockbox General => Rockbox General Discussion => Topic started by: ImpTaimer on March 28, 2012, 02:02:47 AM
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*See next post by user*
I find that the inconsistencies of information on the web page, the application, and the utility very annoying.
Rockbox is supposedly "3.10". The current build page suggests that the "version" is actually "7ec426e". In reality, someone downloading for the first time won't realize that the build they're downloading may change within moments after they download it, because the version hasn't changed. What dictates which build is "stable" is solely dependent on the device and the time/date they downloaded Rockbox.
Since they still think it's version "3.10", when they go to check what version of Rockbox they're on, they won't find it. They'll find the build. The next thing they'll attempt to look for the newest build. They'll find it, but they won't find a change log.
-The version of Rockbox is not displayed in the firmware or utility, only the build is.
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check for updates via the web page or utility.
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check release dates via the web page or utility.
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check change logs for builds.
-In the utility, boot loader and other installed features are labeled via a Date. (Is this the install date or the date the version was released?)
So while all these things may seem trivial to a more adept Rockbox user, this lack of information can be a deterrence for a newer user. The upside is that the utility does most of the work for you, but when you need to get your hands dirty, you have to get a few cuts and bruises in order to get the information you want. There's too much trial and error, and this is a problem considering the risk of bricking the device permanently.
I'm just asking for a little consistency and convenience in the information and how its presented.
I would also like to report that there's very little information regarding the Clip Zip. The best example would be the Device Status page. It's not even on there.
Free free to correct or add anything to this subject.
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-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check for updates via the web page or utility.
You mean like the changelog on the front page of the website that shows every change (after which the 'current build' changes, while the release build stays the same, but announcements are made when the stable release is updated)?
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check release dates via the web page or utility.
We announce new releases on the mailing list as well as the "Project News" list, again on the front page of the site.
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check change logs for builds.
Like the change log, again on the front page of the site, which is the changelog for the current build available at any given time?
It appears you may not have actually visited rockbox.org and think the forums are the whole website? A significant portion of the information you're asking for is consolidated on a single page that is literally the front page of the site.
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Rockbox is supposedly "3.10". The current build page suggests that the "version" is actually "7ec426e". In reality, someone downloading for the first time won't realize that the build they're downloading may change within moments after they download it, because the version hasn't changed. What dictates which build is "stable" is solely dependent on the device and the time/date they downloaded Rockbox.
I think you don't realise that there is a difference between a release and the current build. The current build is the *current development snapshot*, which changes constantly. 3.10 is a stable release. 3.10 is never referred to as anything other than 3.10, because that's what it is.
I think the majority of your confusion comes from not realising this. Anyone who installs the stable release has 3.10 - this is the same version for every player, it's the same version no matter when they installed it, and if they say they have 3.10 we will know exactly what they mean. If you install a current development build, you also get the same build no matter what device you use (the current builds are built for all devices at once), but yes, it will depend on exactly when you downloaded it, and the version number is a hex string like the one you quoted. None of these versions are referred to as a regular X.YY style version number, they only have a git SHA1 hash.
The things referred to by a date, like font packs, etc, are things that are built by a daily process and are not tied to any particular rockbox release - the font pack gets updated independantly of the Rockbox code, so using a version number (of either kind) for it would not be useful.
Llorean points out several of the things you ask for, but this does remind me about the underlying issue, which is that we don't do a very good job of making it clear what the difference is between the most recent stable release, and the most recent "current build". I think we should change our terminology on the website and in Rockbox Utility to make this clearer - perhaps explicitly spelling it out as "Stable Release" vs "Development Build": would that help you out?
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I find that the inconsistencies of information on the web page, the application, and the utility very annoying.
I can't see inconsistencies here. I can however see some possibly problematic use of terms, as Torne already mentioned.
Rockbox is supposedly "3.10". The current build page suggests that the "version" is actually "7ec426e".
The left side menu of the website has an entry "current build" and an entry "releases", which should make it clear that there *is* a difference between those. Furthermore, the current build page states at its top
These builds are generated from actively developed source, and at times may be buggy or unusable. We appreciate your feedback on any issues you may encounter!
For a stable build, download the latest release.
Is there anything that's unclear about this?
What dictates which build is "stable" is solely dependent on the device and the time/date they downloaded Rockbox.
Wrong.
Since they still think it's version "3.10", when they go to check what version of Rockbox they're on, they won't find it. They'll find the build. The next thing they'll attempt to look for the newest build. They'll find it, but they won't find a change log.
Wrong. Someone looking for the latest release should be looking for the "releases" link on the website, not for something called "build". The term "build" doesn't imply it to have gone through a release process.
-The version of Rockbox is not displayed in the firmware or utility, only the build is.
Wrong. Rockbox Utility clearly states what it's going to install. Either you select that youself by using the Installation dialog (see the screenshot on the RockboxUtility wiki page (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/pub/Main/RockboxUtility/snapshot3.png)) or when using the Quick Start, in which case it tells the user that it's going to install the latest release, and that you need to use the Installation dialog if you want to install a development build.
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check for updates via the web page or utility.
Well, yes, there is no check in Rockbox Utility that compares the installed version with the latest version available. That would be a nice feature. Feel free to contribute a patch, developer time is the limiting factor here.
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check release dates via the web page or utility.
Release dates are on the website. And I don't see a point why this should be available in Rockbox Utility. Maybe you can elaborate why this would be useful?
-There is no immediate visual / convenient way to check change logs for builds.
Follow the "Code changes" link on the front page.
-In the utility, boot loader and other installed features are labeled via a Date. (Is this the install date or the date the version was released?)
That's the file date. This is on purpose, since releases for the bootloaders are handled differently to the main builds, and for "other installed features" it simply doesn't make sense. For themes there is no versioning, since themes are user contributed, so the only feasible way is to use the timestamp the file was uploaded.
There's too much trial and error, and this is a problem considering the risk of bricking the device permanently.
I don't see much trial and error here, and I also don't see a risk of bricking your device. The only critical part that can brick your device is installing a bad bootloader (which is only true for some of the supported devices), and we don't provide bootloaders built from current sources for exactly that reason. If you build a bootloader youself you should know what you're doing anyway.
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I was expecting less cynicism, but thanks for the info on subjects I was unclear on.
-Most of my concerns are because of the inconsistencies of terminologies and page linking. And I apologize if because of this the way I may have used them seemed "wrong" and may have complained about the "wrong" things.
-The Utility and Firmware does not state the version of Rockbox. It only states the build. Nowhere on either does it state that you're installing or have version 3.10. You are only given build information. The separation of version and build seems arbitrary from a consumer standpoint. The build does not determine which version of Rockbox you are using, and the version does not determine which build of Rockbox you are using. This is where most of my complaints derive from.
-The "releases" page informs you of little to nothing, and redirects you to other pages which also don't provide "convenient" answers. The only thing it informs you is that you're downloading Rockbox 3.10. It does not inform you what the build the download is using or when the build was updated. You are "forced" to go to the current build page which also tells you nothing except the the current build, or to the change log which is only available on the front page. The "current build" page doesn't tell you when it was updated. If you wish to know the stable build of your device, you have to download it via the "release page", going full circle. If your device is listed as "unstable" or "in development", you must download the current build, because your device technically has "no" stable build. If you wish to know when a build is released, you must go to the "Devel/Build" page within the "current build" page, because the change log page does not tell you the build name in which a change occurred.
-The Change Log page concerning builds is only available on the front page. It is not available in any other page that I've seen. It could at least be added to the side under "Documentation". I will admit I did not find it for this reason, and this reason alone, and I can't apologize enough. The Change Log page also does not inform you of what build effected the change, but the "Recent Activity" page does(?). It gives you only a date, but builds can be released several times within one date, and not all builds have listed changes via the change log. You must go to the Devel/Build page which at this point is "technojargon" to me. *EDIT* Or the Recent activity page.
-The Utility does inform you what the current build is and its release date, but it requires you to have your device plugged and click the "install" button to find out. While this is a nice "safety" feature, you should be able to find out and download without having to have your device plugged in. It would be helpful to add a "current build" and "stable build" reminder in the "Info" section of the Utility.
-There is no "return to main page" feature on the site, you are expected to either click the picture in the top-left corner or re-access it by typing it in or having it bookmarked.*EDIT* The main page has the most useful information, yet it isn't redirected very much from other pages.
That's about all that's left of my annoyances. And at this point they are just annoyances, because enough information was given in the posts that I can find what I'm looking for now.
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I was expecting less cynicism, but thanks for the info on subjects I was unclear on.
I don't think this is cynicism exactly. More like disbelief.
-Most of my concerns are because of the inconsistencies of terminologies and page linking. And I apologize if because of this the way I may have used them seemed "wrong" and may have complained about the "wrong" things.
I think the terminology is entirely consistent, and that the problem is that you are not familiar with it and then neglected to read the descriptions and definitions provided to you. As far as I can tell essentially everything you've complained about comes down to you misunderstanding or ignoring something.
-The Utility and Firmware does not state the version of Rockbox. It only states the build. Nowhere on either does it state that you're installing or have version 3.10.
(http://duke.edu/~mgg6/rockbox/rbutil/version1.png)
This displays when you try to install a build.
-The "releases" page informs you of little to nothing, and redirects you to other pages which also don't provide "convenient" answers. The only thing it informs you is that you're downloading Rockbox 3.10. It does not inform you what the build the download is using or when the build was updated. You are "forced" to go to the current build page which also tells you nothing except the the current build, or to the change log which is only available on the front page.
3.10 is the version number of a specific build. So if you download the 3.10 build, its version is 3.10 and its build is also 3.10. I think this is made quite clear here:
(http://duke.edu/~mgg6/rockbox/rbutil/version2.png)
The "current build" page doesn't tell you when it was updated.
You're mistaken:
(http://duke.edu/~mgg6/rockbox/rbutil/version3.png)
If you wish to know the stable build of your device, you have to download it via the "release page", going full circle. If your device is listed as "unstable" or "in development", you must download the current build, because your device technically has "no" stable build. If you wish to know when a build is released, you must go to the "Devel/Build" page within the "current build" page, because the change log page does not tell you the build name in which a change occurred.
I don't understand this complaint.
-The Change Log page concerning builds is only available on the front page. It is not available in any other page that I've seen. It could at least be added to the side under "Documentation". I will admit I did not find it for this reason, and this reason alone, and I can't apologize enough.
I don't think this makes sense.
-The Utility does inform you what the current build is and its release date, but it requires you to have your device plugged and click the "install" button to find out.
No it does not.
-There is no "return to main page" feature on the site, you are expected to either click the picture in the top-left corner
You cannot be serious.
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-The Utility does inform you what the current build is and its release date, but it requires you to have your device plugged and click the "install" button to find out. While this is a nice "safety" feature, you should be able to find out and download without having to have your device plugged in. It would be helpful to add a "current build" and "stable build" reminder in the "Info" section of the Utility.
And what would be the point in having such a feature? If you have some download-only feature you need to install manually, and that defeats the purpose of a tool like Rockbox Utility. And if you have to install manually you can also download manually -- there's no difference in having to click buttons in a tool or links in your browser.
-There is no "return to main page" feature on the site, you are expected to either click the picture in the top-left corner or re-access it by typing it in or having it bookmarked.*EDIT* The main page has the most useful information, yet it isn't redirected very much from other pages.
There is, on pretty much *every* page.
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-The Utility and Firmware does not state the version of Rockbox. It only states the build. Nowhere on either does it state that you're installing or have version 3.10. You are only given build information. The separation of version and build seems arbitrary from a consumer standpoint. The build does not determine which version of Rockbox you are using, and the version does not determine which build of Rockbox you are using. This is where most of my complaints derive from.
I think this is the root of your difficulty, and it's caused by our terminology being a bit weird (you are misunderstanding it). It may help you to know that I'm now working on changing our terminology to be more sensible and consistent.
However, currently: your statement here is wrong. There is no such thing as a separate "version" and "build". There is the latest stable release of rockbox, which is labelled "3.10" - this is its version number, this is its build, there is no other identifier for it. There is also the current development version, which is labelled with a hexadecimal number like "4e889cb" as well as the date it was compiled - this is its version number, this is its build, there is no other identifier for it. If you install the development version, you *do not* have 3.10, you have the development version, which is newer than 3.10 and will, eventually, develop into the 3.11 release.
You are welcome to think this is confusing and doesn't make sense - and we agree. We are in the process of agreeing on new terminology that should be much more sensible for users and developers alike to understand, and once we've decided exactly how this should look we will update both the website and Rockbox Utility to use the new terms consistently.