Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => Hardware => Topic started by: evanthepanther on February 07, 2010, 10:12:48 AM

Title: Problem with shutting down
Post by: evanthepanther on February 07, 2010, 10:12:48 AM
as I'm new to rockbox, i havent quite yet figured out how to make it actually sleep, so I've been shutting it down (by holding the play button). I recently put the new version (the one included in the installer) 3.5 onto my 80gb ipod video.

Now the problem is, every time i shut it down, it shows the battery image with the triangle and "!" on it, like the battery is exhausted. I cant see any problems with the battery at all, it holds a charge, and I never let it fall below 50%.

Mods, sorry if this isnt the correct thread to put the topic.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: AlexP on February 07, 2010, 10:26:43 AM
Rockbox doesn't support sleep, it shuts down fully.  As for seeing the battery sign, that is a side effect of a work around for a start up problem - see http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=23187.0
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: evanthepanther on February 07, 2010, 10:46:43 AM
it doesnt come up with that icon when it powers up, it comes up with it when it powers down, like it forces the battery to disconnect
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: AlexP on February 07, 2010, 11:18:06 AM
I know, did you read the thread I linked?

Even more details at http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10107
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: evanthepanther on February 07, 2010, 04:31:45 PM
yes I did read it...

"There is an issue on some iPods where occasionally powering on the player", but replace "on" with "off" in my case.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: torne on February 07, 2010, 04:40:35 PM
The *fix for the startup problem* causes the low battery icon to be displayed at shutdown. Your ipod is working fine.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: evanthepanther on February 07, 2010, 09:55:20 PM
okay thank you torne
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: AlexP on February 08, 2010, 03:53:28 AM
Which was stated in both things I linked you to.  I could/should have been more explicit, but I didn't feel like typing it all out again.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: torne on February 08, 2010, 06:23:57 AM
Not only that, but it's also mentioned in the manual under "Turning the player on and off": http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-ipodvideo/rockbox-buildch3.html#x5-280003.1.2

Please read the manual for your device before you report issues...
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: evanthepanther on February 08, 2010, 11:58:38 AM
from you torne, in the thread with the poll:

"You don't need to vote now, because the workaround has been applied. Current development builds should hopefully not have the problem any more (and nor will 3.5 once it is released)."

mine started doing it upon installing 3.5

also I hardly think that glitches should be included in the manual. Apparently I'm one of the idiots that only reads the manual when I need to check something, or when something goes wrong. I read the battery section I didnt even think that it would be in the "turning on and off section".
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: torne on February 08, 2010, 12:08:34 PM
The problem being discussed in the linked threads is a startup problem which you have probably never seen. The fix for the startup problem, which is the workaround that was applied, causes the low battery icon to appear on shutdown (for complicated technical reasons). The low battery icon appearing is not a problem and has never been, it is just a cosmetic annoyance which was introduced because it was considered a good tradeoff to prevent the startup problem.

It is documented in the manual because it is a permanent fixture: everyone's ipod will do it, every time they turn off. It's not a glitch/bug, it's a minor annoying side effect of a useful fix for a different problem.

Is that clear enough yet?
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: evanthepanther on February 15, 2010, 11:09:15 AM
"Is that clear enough yet?"

No

"startup problem which you have probably never seen."

I boot the ipod firmware daily, and when I do, I tilt the screen to the light to see when the apple icon loads so I can switch it to hold. I have never seen the low battery icon until I installed version 3.5

"it's a minor annoying side effect of a useful fix for a different problem."

Like I said, I never had the icon come up, thus it didn't fix anything

Lastly, Torne, It looks like you developed this "fix" and your trying to protect your own contribution, which is understandable. But you cant be right all the time, I'm just trying to identify a problem within Rockbox so it can be fixed. Everything reason you said to make me believe that the "work around" is legit, doesnt apply to me. Instead of badgering a person new to Rockbox, how about you try to help them?
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: AlexP on February 15, 2010, 11:26:03 AM
Right, let's try again.

Some people suffered from a very annoying start up problem that meant that it was difficult to turn on their ipod.

A workaround for this startup problem has been committed, that fixes it.  This is what was being discussed in this thread.

The side effect of this fix is that everybody now sees the low battery symbol when they turn off.

It is considered better that everybody suffers from the minor cosmetic issue when turning off, than some people suffer from the more serious issue when turning on.

I really don't know how else to explain this.  We are really very sorry that you now see the low battery symbol when you turn off when you had no need of the startup fix, but it is for the greater good.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: torne on February 15, 2010, 11:36:34 AM
OK, I can try one more time.

I boot the ipod firmware daily, and when I do, I tilt the screen to the light to see when the apple icon loads so I can switch it to hold. I have never seen the low battery icon until I installed version 3.5
Yes. This is correct. Older versions do not show the low battery icon. 3.5 shows the low battery icon on poweroff. Always. For everyone. This is not a bug. This is not some experience unique to you.

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Like I said, I never had the icon come up, thus it didn't fix anything
The fix causes the icon to come up. That is what it does. The fix makes the icon come up on shutdown. The icon never showed up before the fix. This is what was supposed to happen. It is an unwanted but unavoidable side effect.

The fix is for people whose iPod sometimes would not turn on at all. No low battery icon was involved in that problem.

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Lastly, Torne, It looks like you developed this "fix" and your trying to protect your own contribution, which is understandable.
Actually, dreamlayers developed the workaround; I committed it to the code, reluctantly, because I couldn't find a better solution to the problem where some iPods would not turn on at all. Hopefully in the future we will find a proper solution to that problem and this workaround can be removed. I have no attachment to any code I have written; if it's wrong it's wrong, if it can be improved I encourage people to do so. I do not feel the need to react according to the motives you ascribe to me.

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But you cant be right all the time, I'm just trying to identify a problem within Rockbox so it can be fixed.
As a developer of this project, I make a very large effort to ensure that when I post something on the forums to answer user questions, it *is* right. If I am uncertain I would ask the other developers, to avoid spreading misinformation from a theoretically trusted source.

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Everything reason you said to make me believe that the "work around" is legit, doesnt apply to me. Instead of badgering a person new to Rockbox, how about you try to help them?
You might not have experienced the problem where your iPod doesn't turn on. If so, then yes, this workaround is irrelevant to you and does nothing other than (seemingly) annoy you when you see the icon. I'm sorry about that; but we decided the benefit of having iPods always turn on for everyone was worth it. I am not badgering you, I am honestly trying to explain the situation to you so that you can see that we have a valid reason for introducing what is, to you, an annoyance.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: torne on March 04, 2010, 12:52:58 PM
OK, since it still doesn't seem to be understood, here's the trivial analogy: vaccination :)

Sometimes people died of weird diseases (their ipods didn't turn on). Someone invented a way to prevent the disease (the code I committed). Now everyone has to suffer a needle in the arm (the low battery icon that shows up on shutdown) but at least they don't die any more (their ipods always turn on).
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: Llorean on March 04, 2010, 12:57:18 PM
I'll try my hand at explaining too:

The original problem affected some people but not everyone. But we had no idea of how to predict which individual players it would affect, just which models these players could be. All we knew what that some individual players would get it, and some wouldn't. The problem would cause the players to freeze up, sometimes unnoticed during shutdown, and possibly drain the battery. This was bad. Very bad. So we found a fix for it. The problem with this fix was that since we didn't know which individual players would have the problem, we had to put the fix on all players within the category. The fix includes that quick bit where it shows the image on shutting down. There is no way to avoid this, but it causes no harm.

So in order to fix a really bad bug for some people, we had to include what appears to be a really minor glitch (but really isn't) for everyone. It causes no harm. Ignore it.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: evanthepanther on March 04, 2010, 01:08:44 PM
is that really necessary? 2 weeks after i last posted about this, it should've died out by now. I know its just a little bug, that does absolutely no damage, but it was the whole handling of the question, i said thank you for the answer on feb 7th, it should'nt have been replied to after that.

all that had to have been said is "its a little annoyance that we cant do anything about" and I wouldve been fine with it, but of course, it wasnt dealt with like that
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: Llorean on March 04, 2010, 01:11:08 PM
It seemed pretty clear that you still didn't understand why it's not an "issue" and not a "glitch" either, considering your postings elsewhere. And since you were so vehement about information not being clear enough, we tried to fix that.

Of course, that apparently leads to more complaints, pretty much establishing that your primary interest here really is trolling.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: torne on March 04, 2010, 01:11:42 PM
We suggested that you might want to read the manual in future to avoid the confusion. You started an argument about whether it should be in the manual, and about whether it was a problem. And now you're blaming us for trying to make things clear to you?

In the other thread you are complaining about people referring you to the manual instead of explaining things; well, we're explaining things, and you're still complaining about it.
Title: Re: Problem with shutting down
Post by: soap on March 04, 2010, 01:13:13 PM
i said thank you for the answer on feb 7th, it should'nt have been replied to after that.
For the record, on the 8th and 15th you, yourself, replied and expressed confusion as to the meaning of the attempted explanations before.  I see no apparent malice, simply an attempt to clarify.  

Regardless, either you now properly understand the issue or you don't.  I do not see how continuation of this thread can offer anything which has not already been said.

Locking.